No apologies have been received.

Today's meeting has been convened to engage with the IRFU on funding issues to include regional funding and also funding and support of women’s rugby. I welcome the following witnesses from Sport Ireland, Dr. Úna May, CEO; and Ms Nora Stapleton, director of strategic national governing body programmes and Women in Sport lead; and from the Irish Rugby Football Union, Mr. Kevin Potts, chief executive; Ms Thelma O'Driscoll, chief financial officer; and Ms Lynne Cantwell, head of women’s strategy.

The format of this meeting is such that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to five minutes. The statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. I thank the witnesses for the information they have provided in advance of this meeting. Is that all agreed? Agreed.

Before we move to today's discussion, I would like to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the witnesses to make their opening statements.

On behalf of Sport Ireland, I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss Sport Ireland's role in supporting the development of sport in Ireland and, in particular, our engagement with the IRFU. Sport Ireland is a statutory body with responsibility for the development of sport in Ireland under the Sport Ireland Act 2015. Our remit is broad and reflects the scale and complexity of the Irish sporting system. Under section 8 of the Act, Sport Ireland’s functions include developing participation and highperformance sport, eliminating doping in sport, supporting the development of coaching, providing guidelines on child safeguarding, and developing the Sport Ireland campus.

We operate within a wider ecosystem that includes over 60 autonomous national governing bodies of sport, ten other funded bodies, and 29 local sports partnerships, LSPs. These organisations lead, regulate and deliver their sports at grassroots and high-performance levels. Sport Ireland empowers and supports them through investment, guidance and sectorwide capacity-building.

Central to this work is a comprehensive investment model that provides targeted funding across multiple streams. The IRFU is in receipt of funding for youth field sport, highperformance, and women in sport, as well as dormant accounts funding and other strategic funding. Through the youth field sport or games development programme funding, Sport Ireland has provided consistent investment of just over €2.25 million per year, supporting grassroots rugby development, including development officers, schools programmes, disability inclusion initiatives and club supports. This funding is explicitly directed at participation and development. It does not support national teams, high-performance programmes or capital investments. Sport Ireland also supports the IRFU through high-performance programme funding for the women’s rugby sevens. This funding contributes to training environments, athlete supports, pathway development and competition programmes.

Women in Sport remains a critical area of focus across the sector. Since 2005, Sport Ireland has delivered substantial investment under our women in sport policy, supporting NGBs to grow participation, leadership, coaching and visibility. The IRFU receives significant Women in Sport funding to advance the women’s game and implement programmes aligned to the four pillars of the national policy.

Our responsibilities also extend to ensuring strong governance standards across the sector. Sport Ireland requires all funded bodies to adopt and comply with the governance code for sport. The IRFU is currently categorised as a type C sporting organisation. It is compliant with the code and continues to engage with Sport Ireland’s governance programmes and ongoing sectoral supports.

Safeguarding is another critical element of our remit. Sport Ireland provides the national framework for safeguarding guidance, training and compliance, supported by thousands of child safeguarding workshops annually. In 2025, the IRFU facilitated a significant safeguarding programme, delivering workshops across safeguarding 1, 2 and 3 to almost 5,000 participants, and has declared compliance with Sport Ireland’s safeguarding requirements.

Sport Ireland also leads national development in coaching and officiating. The IRFU is actively engaged with the coaching development programme for Ireland and participates in key Sport Ireland working groups and committees shaping the future of coaching and officiating systems.

Finally, the IRFU is one of several highperformance organisations based on the campus, where colocation provides strategic advantages through shared facilities, services and national system alignment as the campus continues to develop under its longterm masterplan. Sport Ireland continues to work alongside the IRFU and all NGBs, LSPs and other funded bodies to deliver a system that is safe, inclusive and wellgoverned, and that supports participation and performance at every level of rugby and sport in Ireland.

I am joined by my colleague, Nora Stapleton, who is director of strategic national governing bodies programmes and Women in Sport lead. We welcome the committee’s interest in this important area and are available to answer any questions regarding our relationship with the IRFU. Go raibh maith agaibh.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for having us here today. I genuinely appreciate the opportunity to speak about funding in Irish rugby, including our provinces and, of course, the women's game. I am delighted to be joined by Thelma O’Driscoll, chief financial officer, and Lynne Cantwell, head of women's strategy.

This conversation matters to us because rugby matters to clubs and communities across the island, North and South. On that point, I would like to start by acknowledging the thousands of people across Ireland who keep rugby alive and thriving. Week in, week out volunteers, coaches, staff, players and families pour their time into the game because they believe in what rugby stands for.

Irish rugby exists to nurture and spread the game and its values throughout this island. Central to this is our passion to inspire the nation. It is what drives us. Rugby is also about fun, whether it is a five-year-old boy or girl picking up a ball for the first time, a provincial player breaking through or our national teams taking to the pitch in green.

We want people across the island and Irish people across the world to feel proud, connected and inspired and to enjoy rugby. The fact that our men's and women's national teams are currently sitting at third and fifth in the world, respectively, is a source of great pride to us. We currently have just over 95,000 registered players and reach a further 360,000 through our development officer programmes. I am also proud to say we have 60 disability-inclusive teams across 56 clubs. If we needed a perfect example of rugby's power to inspire, we need only look back to last month when an astonishing 77% of the available television audience in Ireland, equating to more than 1 million fans, watched and celebrated our men's team's victory against England. In 2025, five of the top ten most-watched programmes on Irish television were rugby matches. That tells me something very simple, that rugby matters to Irish people.

I have been involved in rugby all of my life and care deeply about the game and the people who sustain it. As IRFU chief executive, alongside the union and provincial leadership, our responsibility is to protect and grow the rugby ecosystem, men and women, girls and boys, grassroots and elite, and everyone who loves the game across the whole island. Irish rugby operates as one integrated system incorporating clubs, provinces and national teams, both men's and women's. Our responsibility is to protect and grow that in a manner that is sustainable, fair and transparent. We take our stewardship seriously.

The men's national team generates approximately 83% of the revenues that support the wider game. Without its success at the top table of international rugby, our ability to support the game in every corner of this island would crumble. The team's achievements have enabled us to keep clubs strong, maintain provincial competitiveness and grow participation. As a not-for-profit entity, our approach is straightforward. We invest every euro we generate back into the whole Irish rugby network to protect its long-term health. I would like to express in this forum the IRFU's deep gratitude to the Government and Sport Ireland for their ongoing financial commitment to and support for our game.

Financial sustainability is a key priority that we do not take lightly. We are operating in a period of inflationary pressure and funding six professional teams is an expensive business. Our aim is to ensure that every investment we make is targeted at supporting the stability and future of the sport on the island. Sustainability is not about protecting one team; it is about protecting the future of Irish rugby as a whole. Our clubs, schools and provinces are the backbone of Irish rugby. Their success drives participation, performance pathways, community identity and national team performance. We invest €41 million every year in our provinces, which includes paying 73% of the total salaries of all 300 professional players on the island. Our role is to support them and to do so fairly, recognising their different realities. When the provinces are strong, Ireland is strong.

Women's rugby is a central part of that future and a key priority for the IRFU and the global game. Participation continues to grow, performance standards are rising and expectations rightly continue to increase. We have increased investment substantially over the last number of years, from €2.1 million in 2021 to over €9.5 million this year. We are building the systems, not shortcuts, that will support long-term success. Our aspiration is for women and girls across Ireland to see rugby as their sport too and to see a well-supported rugby pathway from minis to international level.

Rugby brings communities together across the island. Our focus is on ensuring that the game we love remains strong, accessible, well run and protected for the next generation and beyond. I conclude by thanking our fans, commercial partners and patrons for their ongoing invaluable support. I also thank members of the committee for the opportunity to speak with them today.

We will have questions now.

As an ardent rugby fan, I am tempted to gush profoundly. No matter what we spend on rugby, it is worth it for every moment of entertainment over the last couple of weeks and especially at the weekend. Congratulations to our Triple Crown winners, who were pipped at the post, very sadly, in the last minute. I was, like many in Ireland and right across the world, in a packed Irish pub where it was unusual to hear so many Irish fans screaming for England to win. I want to see those very same pubs absolutely stuffed to the gills when the women's Six Nations kicks off on 11 April. At the moment, I cannot help thinking that we are asking women to perform like professionals but we are treating them, and certainly paying them, like amateurs. I know the central contracts for women players were only introduced in 2022. I looked at those contracts, many of which are still part-time, with players being paid between €15,000 and €20,000. Full-time players are being paid between €20,000 and €40,000 annually. If we look at the men's contracts, we see they are earning from €150,000 to €500,000. I acknowledge, as Mr. Potts outlined, that the men are bringing in 83% of the revenue but how does the IRFU realistically expect to attract and retain these elite female athletes when many of the international players still need to hold down part-time jobs while they are representing our country?

I am happy to start with that. We have a stated ambition to accelerate the growth of our women's game. That is also a global ambition across the world. The women's game and the contracting professional model that is in place are still relatively young. I do not want to get into details on salaries, if that is okay, but we are paying around twice the average of what other unions are paying their female players. We hope that as the game continues to grow and as the commercial value becomes more sustainable in the future, the women's salaries can increase. What I have found, in dealing with these players - Ms Cantwell can speak about this better than I can, as can Ms Stapleton - is that those involved in women's rugby are on a journey and are happy to be part of that journey. They realise where that is and we do everything we can to support them to the best of our ability. We have, obviously, increased our investment significantly. I would like to see a future, not too far away, where the commercial income that is coming into the women's game and the salaries that it is able to fund will increase over time. That is what we are all striving to achieve.

It is probably a little bit of a chicken and egg situation, though, is it not? Without that investment, the union will not get sponsorship but without that sponsorship, the situation is not going to improve. What particular steps is the IRFU taking to grow sponsorship and improve the visibility of the women's game so that the players' contracts can move to genuinely professional levels?

I will ask Ms Cantwell to respond to that.

What particular steps are being taken?

I thank the Senator for the question. We are shifting into a really important era. I would define it as a growth era across the whole game, from a performance and domestic game point of view but, in particular, from a commercial and communications point of view. There are two parts to this. In terms of visibility and communications, the nationwide challenge that we have around the visibility of women's sport is well documented. A couple of weeks ago, Sport Ireland published research which defined where all of our media outlets are in relation to the visibility of women's sport. Collectively, only 18% of all of our media outlets are reporting on women's sport so there is a lot of work that we need to do collectively for that to improve. When we talk about the commercial build-out, we must remember that commercial development and communications are the fourth and fifth pillars of the women in rugby strategy.

We need to build out our capability to attract commercial sponsors and generate revenue in order to invest it back into the grassroots game and we are doing that. The three main revenue-generating mechanisms are ticketing, sponsorship and broadcasting. The broadcast area is more difficult and all sports in all countries across the world are trying to crack the nut of generating revenue from broadcasting. From a sponsorship and ticketing point of view, one of the things we are trying to do is build out our ability to grow our fan base in order for them to come to events. The priority is to build the fan base because we want them to come and see the girls play and we want the girls on the field to have a great experience and for that to elevate their ability to perform.

We want people to come to women's and girls' events and have a brilliant time. We want to see us as a society go there and realise that these events are designed with women and girls in mind and that there are features within the game that are different from the boys' game. To build out that fan base we need visibility, just as the Senator said. We know that visibility will lend itself to sponsors wanting to get on board. That is the flywheel. What we have started to do internally is work with our commercial team on that. Part of this involves working with our current sponsors. We have met with all of our current sponsors to debrief the Rugby World Cup last year, to be able to motivate them in the vision that we have and to close the gap in the commercial insights that we have gathered from the World Cup. This is the first time that we have them globally from a women's rugby point of view and we have passed them on to our current sponsors so that they are aware of what we are trying to activate and how we are trying to activate it. There is a massive piece around the sponsors we do not have. We need to do a lot of work to try to attract more sponsors that may be more specifically attracted to elevating the women's game, sponsors that we do not currently have in our portfolio-----

That is it. We need to elevate the game by having elite players. I know that the IRFU is throwing the net out to try to attract elite players from other sports but, at the same time, they may be working or playing somewhere where there is professionalism. People will go and see matches where we are going to win and we need the elite players for that. How can the union attract them to leave those other sports?

Our women's national team squad is about to be announced. We have a really good women's national team right now. The resourcing that has gone into supporting the team, the contracting model and the coaches that support the team are making a difference. We have announced an extension to Scott Bemand's contract until the end of 2029. That team is capable of winning and I expect that in the upcoming women's Six Nations, it will be winning. We are hoping to sell out or at least to get a massive, record crowd at the Aviva Stadium against Scotland. We are doing everything we can but we have a strong, competitive team. We have come quite some way over the past number of years. The team is attracting fans. What we want is for fans and households around the country to get behind the team and go and support a game.

Absolutely. Bums on seats is what we need and we also need to make sure the players are being paid handsomely.

I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I want to start with the money, funding and investment. Mr. Potts referred to €41 million going into the provinces every year, which is a huge amount. Is that going into the women's provinces as well or is that just for the men's provinces? Is there a separate figure for the women's provinces?

Ms O'Driscoll will answer that.

The overall figure of €41 million covers the men's and women's but a large part of it is going towards funding the four provincial men's teams. A lot of the funding for the women's is still centrally held within the IRFU. We pay them all centrally. Overall, we are spending €9 5 million on the women's game and that is up from €2.1 million in 2021.

Is it correct that €9.5 million for the women's game this year includes some of the €41 million for the provinces?

Yes.

That is fine. The sum of €9.5 million is considerable and it did have to jump, given where it was. It needed to catch up a little bit. Money comes in from Sport Ireland that is ring-fenced for women in sport. Is there a spend against that? Does Sport Ireland get a spend against that from the IRFU? Do we know where that money goes?

Our allocation over the past two years was €400,000. Under the funding application process, not just with the IRFU but with all of the national governing bodies, we receive an end-of-year report on the spend for the previous year. We would get an outline of where our budget has gone against programmes that the IRFU ran. That comes along with proposals or plans for any funding that we might provide in the current year. It is the same process for every national governing body. Internally, then, we go through an evaluation process. We get a breakdown of where the budget has gone against programmes and initiatives that would match our women in sport policy in Sport Ireland.

Is it correct that this is the same for the FAI and any other organisations that are getting funding?

There would be some very small differences but all organisations are always asked what they spent the money on in the previous year and what their proposals and plans for the current year. The process is the same for every organisation that receives money from us.

The combine is a really good idea and a really interesting concept. I was talking to Sinéad Goldrick at an event last week and she told me that the draw of being able to be a professional in Australia is huge. Even though Gaelic games are number one for a lot of footballers, to be able to live like a professional and to play a professional sport in Australia is a huge carrot. Ladies football is actually struggling with that a little bit because the draw to Australia is huge. We are losing a lot more female players than we are male players at this stage. I invite Dr. May and Ms Cantwell to share their thoughts on the combine and how it might work. Jenny Murphy, who played with the IRFU, said that Gaelic football was not physical enough for her but she did not realise that she could play rugby until she was in college. In terms of how the IRFU is targeting players, what age groups and what sports are being targeted? How is the combine going to work?

The combine is a new initiative and programme. The first combine is next Tuesday and we will learn a lot from it. There will be one in each province. It involves a public advertisement offering an opportunity for female athletes who are over 18 to try out rugby with a view to playing either sevens or 15s rugby. We do not want to create too many boundaries around it, although there is an Olympic aspiration. Some of our original Olympians came from other sports, like Lucy Mulhall and Amee-Leigh Murphy Crowe, now Costigan. They both went down the sevens route. What we have recognised within women's rugby and women's sport more generally is that we have to give opportunities to girls who are physically capable, competitive, ambitious and want to play sports. In the era we are in, they can move across sports which may pass through as we have more opportunities for more full pathways coming through. We will know more in the next two weeks in terms of who comes through, what sports they are coming from and how they show up. It is really important that we provide the right sports science and medical support around transferring athletes because although they might have the physical capabilities, there is lots from a rugby point of view, both technically and tactically, that we have to be able to support. If we have an athlete who joins the combine because she has Olympic aspirations to play sevens but, on assessment, she is more suited to the 15s game, we will give opportunities for both. That is the approach we are taking with sevens and 15s. They are part of the same programme. When a sevens player, for example, needs more game time and there are more 15s opportunities, she can play. Equally, from a 15s point of view, if there are more things in the sevens game that players need to learn, then they can transfer over.

In the sevens and 15s women's game there is a partnership within the pathway, which is positive, but the men's programme has been cut. That was reflective of World Rugby's decision around leagues. Was that the main reason? If so, does that mean that sevens rugby for men could come back at some point?

One can never say never but the investment in the men's sevens programme is now going into the women's game and into putting some additional pathway programmes in place in Connacht, Munster and Ulster. That is where the investment has gone. I do not want to speak on behalf of World Rugby but the World Rugby sevens model is challenged commercially. Quite a number of unions do not participate. In the Six Nations, France is currently running two professional teams, we have a women's sevens while Great Britain closed down its two full-time professional teams but has restarted some form of team based around Scotland. It is something that not every union is involved in and, again, I am not speaking for World Rugby when I say that it is not a commercially viable product a lot of the time. If we are talking about running professional programmes, they need at some point to generate some form of return. In addition, we feel that putting more investment into our men's pathways, our 15s pathways, is more beneficial to putting players on our national 15s team which ultimately delivers all of our revenue. There were multiple reasons for the decision but it probably was not helped by the final outcome of the World Rugby review. I hope that makes sense.

I thank Mr. Potts.

I want to focus in on a number of areas but I am conscious of time so I will fly through my questions. I thank the witnesses for coming in today. They are all very welcome. The first area I want to focus in on relates to women's rugby and equality.

What percentage of the total funding is allocated to women's rugby versus men's? That can be in percentage or monetary terms.

It is specifically €9.5 million, which is roughly almost 10% of our cost base. Women's rugby also benefits from other centralised programmes such as the development officers we have up and down and country, who cover both men's and women's teams. The women's teams also have access to the high-performance centre, centralised coaching and nutritional support. We have also made a lot of grants available for clubs, in particular, so that they can upgrade facilities to cope for women.

In terms of the national set-up, how does the IRFU support the national women's team compared with the men's?

The national women's team have the same level of support as the men's national team. They have full-time coaches, full-time nutritionists, full-time physios and psychological support. Those supports are all in place and have been in place for the last three or four years.

Female players in the IRFU have equal access, therefore, to medical supports, strength and conditioning and recovery resources. Do they have absolute parity with the men's team?

Yes.

Is it 100%?

Yes.

In terms of visibility and the promotion of the female game, it has been very poor historically. I know a lot of work has been done in recent years. What proportion of the IRFU's marketing budget goes towards the promotion of the women's game versus the men's game? On the finance side, the women's game gets about 10% and the men's game gets 90%, notwithstanding that some resources are combined.

We do not have a big marketing budget for the men's game because we do not need one. We sell out our games. I do not have the detail regarding the marketing budget spend on the women's game, but we can send it to committee. Having to sell tickets to try to fill a women's game actually requires a bigger effort. I would say to anyone who may be watching this meeting or is interested, we really need fans and households to support our women's players in all sports.

Does the IRFU have a high-performance budget?

We have a high-performance budget, which is primarily around supporting our high-performance teams, so that is coaching, medical-----

What exact percentage of the IRFU's high-performance budget is allocated to the women's game? Is it still at 10%?

I think so.

It is around 10%. We have to remember, however, that we are not just funding the men's and women's national teams out of our high-performance budget. We are also funding the four professional men's rugby teams in the provinces.

The reality is that 10% of the total is going to the women's team.

That is the specific funding. There is a centralised pot that both the men's and women's pull from as well and, as Mr. Potts said, they get full and equal access to all of that.

Do the witnesses believe that the women's team are treated equally to the men's team?

I believe our women's national team are very well supported right now. They have shown in recent years what that support has done for their performances, and we will continue to support them to the extent that we can.

Why do the funding, pay and support not reflect that?

The pay reflects where the women's game is right now, not just in Ireland but globally. Our national men's team are generating 80% of our revenue. The women's game for now is still an investment. England is probably the best example of women's rugby right now. They are forecasting that they will not break even in their women's game programme until 2031. We are still well behind them.

Can the witnesses commit a specific date on which they think the women's game will become professional?

It is professional at a central level.

For example, can Mr. Potts confirm whether any female Ireland international rugby player is earning a full-time professional salary comparable to those of their male counterparts? I would like a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Our women's contracts are appropriate to where the women's game is now.

Are any of them comparable to their male counterparts' contracts?

Our women's contracts are-----

It is a "Yes" or "No" question.

I will answer in my own way, if I can.

Yes.

Our women's contracting model is what is working right now both for our players and for Irish rugby. It is consistent with what is done globally as well. We benchmark ourselves. We are as ambitious as our players for that to grow over time. If and when the revenue grows, the salary will grow. That is it. That is the model.

So, the answer is "No".

I have given the Deputy the answer in my way.

No female Ireland international rugby player is earning a full-time professional salary comparable to those of their male counterparts. Is that correct?

There are two parts to that question. Our women's contracted players are earning a full-time salary.

Does the IRFU foresee the women's game becoming professional and the players earning professional contracts?

I will bow to Ms Cantwell on that.

In women's rugby and women's sport, the roadmap to professionalism is what we are all on. It is all a growth story and part of that roadmap to professionalism is the contracting of our athletes. The start of that contracting and the amount of money the players earn is certainly lower than what we have to aspire towards, but it is comparable to where our female athletes are in other sports within Ireland, as well as globally. It is not where we want it to end up. Part of my ambition and commitment is to ensure we build out our revenues so that we can, as well as-----

Are we on a pathway towards professionalism?

We are on a pathway.

We are on a journey.

We are on that pathway to professionalism, but we are definitely not at the end yet.

The opening statement referred to the IRFU owning a number of properties that were investments made in the thirties and forties. These are long-term investments in properties located in and around the Aviva Stadium. How many properties does the IRFU own down there?

We own 26 residential properties. Three are in Clonsilla near the high-performance centre and 23 are residential properties in and around the stadium.

Will Ms O'Driscoll tell me about those 26 properties? Do they generate a huge residential rental income? Are they used by players? What is the IRFU's current situation regarding those properties?

All of the rental income from these properties is invested back into the game. It provides a stable income stream for us. We have a range of people in these properties. We have players, staff, families, couples and private individuals. We have quite a wide range.

If someone is in one of these properties, would it be part of their contract that they do not have to pay rent? Would that be part of a deal?

No, they do pay rent.

Is it at the market rate?

We have them paying rent and we manage all of that through a third party to make sure we are compliant with everything.

What is the approximate annual rental income from those 26 properties?

It is just over €1 million.

I thank the witnesses for joining us. It is important to recognise their acknowledgement that there have been shortcomings in the past regarding how the women's game was perhaps supported, and they have detailed how the IRFU is trying to rectify that. I want to discuss the increase in funding from €2.1 million four or five years ago to €9.5 million. It is a significant increase in investment. However, when we look at the IRFU's total player registrations, there are 95,776 people registered. I understand that has increased by 3,000 or 4,000 from the same stage last year, but we are still looking at 83% male registrations and only 17% female registrations. Considering the significant increase in investment, how does the IRFU intend to drive up that female percentage? We have spoken a bit about the combined resources, but is that the only endeavour the IRFU is pursing? What is the IRFU's target for female participation levels over the next 10 years? How does it intend to monitor it?

I will start and I will then hand over to Ms Cantwell. A lot of the investment increase over the last number of years has been focused on our women's national team and giving them the supports they needed. The next phase of development, which Ms Cantwell can cover, relates to how we can grow the playing base. We have also invested in pathways for our women's national team in each of the four provinces, but investing in the base and in facilities in the clubs to make them inclusive is really the next phase over the next period of time. Ms Cantwell can give more detail on this.

I thank the Deputy for her question. It is a really important one. There are currently 17,500 women and girls playing rugby in Ireland. That has accelerated over the last two or three years. Based on that growth rate, we have projected where we will be by 2030, and it brings us up to between 30,000 and 35,000 women.

That is near enough double the current figure.

As for where those girls are coming from, we see a really significant growth in secondary schools. The committee might be familiar with the boys' versions of the junior cup and the senior cup. The girls' versions of the junior cup and the senior cup have only been established in the provinces over the past two years.

Even with that there has been a huge injection of girls wanting to play. There is a huge amount of work to do in our clubs, with 12% of all our clubs across the country currently having a full pathway. A girl will go in at the age of seven, she comes out at 18 and she can play all the way up.

Is that 12%?

Yes.

Only 12% of all clubs in the country have a pathway for girls to progress through to a women's team?

A full pathway. Therefore, there are opportunities. This is women's sports across the country, full stop.

Yes.

We have to work very hard to try to ensure that the gaps are filled. For example, if we can work with clubs across the whole country for them to have full pathways then our girls are not going to drop out as they will have the opportunities to play all the way along. In other words, we have to retain. One really important piece is volunteers and I know this is synonymous with all sports. Navan Rugby Football Club has three senior women's teams. It is a relatively non-traditional rugby area but because at a leadership level and a coaching level they have people in there who understand how to attract and retain girls, they have three senior teams' worth of girls' teams in Navan Rugby Football Club. It is a sign that when we have the right leadership and volunteers then the girls are there in our communities and we just have to give them a home.

I appreciate that. I am conscious of time so I want to move on to facilities. How many clubs own their own facilities and do all the facilities have female-specific facilities within them? If the witnesses need to they can provide that documentation afterwards.

We can provide that afterwards. I cannot say how many clubs actually own all their facilities. We do have a club inclusive facility grant scheme in place. I think we have included that in our briefing paper. We have invested well over €1 million in clubs that are looking to enhance their facilities for women. We can provide that detail to the committee.

That would be great. The reason I ask is because women are women's best cheerleaders. Any woman around the table will attest to that. There was an article some years ago, perhaps by The Irish Times, about Tuam Rugby Football Club and the facilities around a specific match down there. It highlighted that there was no shelter for visitors, there were no toilets and there were no catering facilities for people who were attending. That would positively discourage me and many other women to support this kind of a game. Worse still, it discourages an incentive for women who are involved in the game to continue in it. Shannon Rugby Football Club is renowned for leading the way for many years in the services and facilities they provide for women and girls in rugby sport. Only in recent days the New Ross Rugby Football Club launched their new women and inclusive dressing rooms and a new gym. If I am correct some of these clubs are facilitated with Community Finance Ireland funding, and I think Shannon Rugby Football Club in particular, just to bridge the gap between grant funding. I am curious to know if that model of funding for facilities is replicated around the nation or is this a one off? Is it perhaps something that could be utilised a bit more in evolving and enhancing facilities for women to continue and to grow with the game as it grows in the coming years?

I am not aware of the scheme personally. As I said, we have an inclusive facilities grant scheme and since 2023 we have invested almost €1.3 million in 21 clubs. We are encouraging clubs to enhance their facilities to be more inclusive. I am not familiar with the scheme the Deputy mentioned but I can take a look. I am sure my team are.

Yes. No problem.

There are about 95 expressions of interest for the inclusive facilities grant scheme that Mr. Potts mentioned. We are working with all of those clubs and I expect that we will pay out an awful lot more in that grant scheme over the next number of years. It is a scheme that will continue to replenish. It is not a scheme that will be finite or capped.

How is that scheme funded? Is that through IRFU's own revenue?

Yes. It is entirely through our own revenue and resources.

Wow. Well done. That is very positive.

The witnesses are all very welcome. I thank them for their opening statements. I am a big rugby fan and I played myself in college. I have two of the games booked for the women's Six Nations. I am really looking forward to them.

I wanted to start by talking about online harm. I was really encouraged to see the news today that the IRFU is pursuing prosecution for some of the racist abuse received by Edwin Edogbo from a recent game. Certainly in the world of politics women get infinitely more online hate than our male counterparts. I imagine the same is the true of sports but I am curious about the witnesses' experience for women players and the online abuse they get. I have spoken to one of the witnesses' colleagues about Signify tech being deployed. I am interested in that from a couple of different angles. Firstly, who is covered by it? Do women get proportionately more, given that they get on more online hate? The IRFU is a sports governing body that receives State funding. At the moment we in this committee are dealing with the regulation of online platforms, as is the Committee on Artificial Intelligence of which I am also a member. I find it interesting that the IRFU, as a recipient of State funding, is now deploying with a third party a contract to combat online hate. I am wondering about the governing body's experience within that. Do the witnesses think there needs to be more State support or some way of combating it? I would love to hear more about it.

I thank the Deputy for the question. My team around me now - I am not an expert on social media and do not have any, thankfully - are, however, very aware of the problem. We have very high-profile male and female athletes and those athletes and their families are subject to horrendous online social media abuse. Some of it is straying into illegality, which I will come back to, and some of it is just outrageous abuse of players who might be underperforming, and then it is leaking on into some of their wives or partners. We decided some time ago that we were going to do something about this. World Rugby had deployed Signify during Rugby World Cup 2023 and they successfully prosecuted an individual, I think in Australia, who had abused on social media one of their match officials. We thought that was really interesting and we have now deployed Signify and Arwen. We filter as much abuse out from our players and any of their family members who wish to be protected by it, and our match officials. We have identified five accounts on the racial abuse and Signify knows exactly who these people are who may have committed alleged crimes or whatever. I do not want to stray off the line here. We will be passing that information to the Garda and it can take it from there. We will not rest there. If any of these people are members of, or are involved in, the rugby family we will also instigate our own examination of that but we do not want to cut across any Garda investigation. We also had a safeguarding issue-----

I am sorry but before Mr. Potts finishes on Signify, I asked my question about how women players are supported within that contract the IRFU has with Signify.

Yes. They are all covered.

Everyone is covered on the same contract.

All of our women elite athletes and all of our men elite athletes, and our provincial players are all covered. Yes.

Does the IRFU find that women athletes get more abuse than men online?

I think the first incident was a female athlete. That was identified and the people involved were identified. It was supported through that process.

The witnesses might provide us with a note on it afterwards.

Please. That would be interesting to hear. I know myself when I am talking to potential candidates for our party, a lot of women will tell me "I won't go near it because I see the abuse you get online". I wonder if this is the same for recruiting in clubs and within the rugby world and sporting world more broadly. Do women see the abuse others are getting at a high-profile athlete level and are turned off by that? It is important to know that.

From a cultural and environment point of view it is really important that this mechanism is in place and that it is fed back to the girls so they know that when these things come up, there is a robust mechanism for them to be listened to and heard. This is fed back to the girls and it really creates a safe environment for them to know the mechanism is in place.

I thank the witnesses for that. I have only a couple of minutes left so I will move on with some specific questions. It is great to see the centralised contracts in place. I believe that one of the players, Amee-Leigh Costigan, is expecting a baby this year. How is maternity handled within the centralised contracts? Are people covered? I know that some of the other unions have done this well in the past.

Yes, she is covered. I believe there will be a story done about this in due course but she is absolutely covered, yes.

That is great to hear. Well done.

I might add one thing to that.

Yes, please.

I think Sport Ireland is nearly finished a review of upgrading the maternity policies for carded athletes within Sport Ireland. Within that, because the female athletics and female sports space is moving so fast, we need to stay updated with the research that is available, including, within that, the realities of female lives, that is, the process if female athletes have to go through in vitro fertilisation, IVF, or staff, for example, and all of that. Sport Ireland is nearly finished its review of maternity policy globally and we will benefit from that because we want to update the maternity policy. Although it is a robust maternity policy, it is a one that has been in place for two to two and a half years. Research has changed, so we want to ensure that is being updated.

Lovely, I thank Ms Cantwell. I have one quick comment and question if I can still fit them in. Building on Senator Comyn's questions around the commercial revenue, there is caution around that being such a dependent factor on salary increases for women. We also need to make sure there is that fair balance between the core funding as well.

In regard to supporting existing clubs, I believe funding has not increased since 2017 or 2018 but the demands on clubs are far greater. The €8,000 does not cover, for example, physio strapping for a season, bus hire or those kinds of things. Is that something that is under review at the moment?

I have not looked at that but what I would say is that we support our clubs to the extent that we can. In my own club, we run our own activities and raise our own funds, and the IRFU supports them where we can by running coaching and inclusivity courses. We would support them with all of those things. We have clubs of Ireland and schools of Ireland schemes where we can given them grants targeted at them pursuing certain initiatives. I am not sure where we are in regard to strapping and the cost of strapping but that is the scheme we have. I have not had any issues with that coming to me in recent times, to be honest. If the Deputy wants to pass it on to me, I can have a look.

Okay.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne-----

Ms Cantwell has something else.

I am sorry.

If it is possible, I might come in on that as well. Like everything in women's sport or women's rugby, there is no silver bullet. We have to take a systematic approach as well as a supportive approach. When we look to the governance structure around women's sport or women's rugby, we have to work very hard with our provinces and clubs to be able to represent the women and girls scheme within their clubs in a way that when they are planning their annual budgets, resources and the support of their men's, women's, girls' and boys' teams, they are planning them in a way that, if they are a Women's All-Ireland League, WAIL, club, a provincial league club or an under-18 team, for example, that they have a good, robust plan in place for that team to be able to get through their season.

I thank all of our witnesses for their work they do. I might start with Dr. Úna May. In fairness, she has probably been before this committee more often than some of its members in the past few months. The IRFU has, certainly at board level, achieved the requirement of at least 40% of its members being male or female for a number of years. In general terms, in roughly how many of the national governing bodies, NGBs, is it outstanding where they have not achieved 40%?

I am sorry. Ms Stapleton keeps the records, so I am at a loss; she better answer that one.

Okay, yes.

This year is our last snapshot. We normally do it in December based on core grant applications that NGBs submit. At the last snapshot, I think there were five NGBs that have not reached the 40% but I will add that of some of those NGBs - all of them, really - there are different reasons for it. For some, there was a bereavement in the board that would have dropped a percentage. For others, it is just changes where a women might have stepped off and they-----

But Ms Stapleton is happy there is a commitment on the part of all of them.

There is a commitment from all, yes.

Okay. That is fine. To look within the IRFU, often at board level there are requirements for ensuring that women participate. As you start to drill down, are there measures at leadership level in clubs and other areas that would encourage women to take on leadership roles?

As part of our inclusivity plan over the course of this strategic plan to 2028, we have targets to increase gender diversification on our boards and committees across the provinces and clubs. That is a work in progress. As the Deputy pointed out, we made the commitment at the top of the organisation and it is now a matter of trying to influence it being rolled out to our provinces and clubs. We have a target that clubs get to 15% over the next two years of-----

Over the next two years.

Yes. That is the end of our current plan.

At least 15%.

At least 15%. Remember, all we can do is influence our provinces and clubs. We try to encourage good practice. I think we are making progress and we will have our latest update in our annual report this year so we will know where we stand. Yes, we are actively trying to encourage it.

Can I touch on the sponsorship issue? That is, I think, critical. First, it is important to recognise those companies and organisations that sponsor women's rugby and put their money where there mouth is. Does Mr. Potts find any differences, when the IRFU is looking for sponsorship, between men's rugby and women's rugby? Is there a different attitude he has taken.

We have really good sponsors, which the Deputy has acknowledged. In general - and I am sure Ms Cantwell or Ms Stapleton can probably come in on this as well - when it comes to it, sponsors will look at brass tacks. That is, how many people are at a game and how many people are watching it on TV. When you get into discussions about how you might support women's sport or the women's game, when it gets to the marketing budgets they are still looking at things like the traditional metrics. That is a challenge for women's sport and women's rugby. An example that was used around the recent Women's Rugby World Cup - and I will not go into specifics - was that they identified hundreds of potential sponsors for the Women's Rugby World Cup. When it came down to it, they ended up with some good sponsors but there were hundreds who were not interested. It is a challenge for women's sport in general as to how we mobilise sponsors to get behind it and maybe look beyond the normal metrics you might see. We have really good sponsors of our women's programme in Irish rugby.

From the point of view of our committee, looking at Government support and so on, if there was a recommendation Mr. Potts could make to Government or Government agencies in regard to how we may be able to influence or support that, what would it be?

I guess, straight up, I would ask that Government agencies, semi-States or any agencies the members may have control of would get behind supporting women's sport in some way. They could take out sponsorship at a game or event and get behind it because it is needed. It is not just in Ireland. Globally, this is a challenge. Women's sport needs all of the support it can get to get it through to where needs to get to. The normal sponsorship model, so far, has not materialised.

I might come in on that one. I think there is an opportunity - I have seen it explored in other countries - where there are tax incentives for private broadcasters to show more women's sport. That is something I have seen as successful.

Okay. I thank Ms Cantwell. That will be quite useful when we explore some of the media issues.

It is always important to acknowledge success and work that is done at a local and community level. I come from, as I would have mentioned when chatting to the witnesses, from Gorey in County Wexford. I am not a rugby player but I am very proud of Gorey Rugby Football Club locally. Even in terms of how it markets and sells itself, it talks about itself in the first instance - it is on its website - as an inclusive community rugby club. I see that in how it makes facilities available for Gorey Cycling Club. It co-operates with its neighbours, such as the GAA club Naomh Éanna, in any community activity. It is very actively involved. It was very much in evidence in our St. Patrick's Day parade yesterday. The club elected its first female president, Trysh Sullivan, in 2020 and it is, of course, the home of Aoife Wafer. It has a very strong tradition of being inclusive. It is a rapidly growing community and one of the challenges is that it wants to grow but it is restricted in terms of its physical space and so on. How can we support clubs like Gorey Rugby Football Club, which want to expand but are obviously limited because of space capacity? I am thinking specifically in regard to what we can do. As Mr. Potts will be aware, both the community sports capital fund and the large-scale sporting infrastructure fund are coming up.

I think within those two problems you have the solution. Making funds available through the large-scale infrastructure fund would be a good way to go.

As regards most clubs that applied for that in the past, we also support them with loans and grants ourselves to help them get over the cost of doing so. I think future grant funding policy should be focused on clubs or facilities that are truly inclusive and that are progressing women's sport. I think that would be the way to go, but that is probably built into policy as of now anyway.

I apologise for being a bit late. I hope I do not overlap on questions.

First, I would like to give the witnesses a brief summary of my weekend. When I was coming up to Dublin on Friday I called in to Arklow Rugby Club. What I saw there was 200 girls playing rugby on a Friday morning. I was completely in awe not only of the talent that was there but also of the volunteers. Some of the guys and some of the ladies who were there were teachers and others were on holidays and using their holiday time. Then, on Sunday, I went to the Leinster league final, where Gorey won the under-18.5 competition. I refer to the effort put in there and the likes of Barney Hynes coaching in Arklow and the likes of young Rory Cooper lifting the cup for Gorey. What joy that brought. Gorey actually brought the cup back to a former president who passed away today. He saw that cup before he died. I was talking to the family this morning. It really lifted them. What they are doing is just incredible.

I move on to a couple of questions. How many full-time female players do we have under contract with the IRFU? Could the witnesses compare that with the number of full-time male players we have under contract with the IRFU? Can the witnesses give me that figure today?

I will give the Deputy broad numbers, if I may. Broadly, we have 30 centrally contracted female players as of now, and across the men's game we have 270 males. We employ every player on the island, so players playing for Munster, Connacht, Leinster and Ulster are all on IRFU contracts, although they work in the provinces, so-----

In the men's game.

Yes, so we are effectively funding or supporting six professional rugby teams. We have our men's national team, our women's national team and four provincial professional men's teams. All those contracts fall to us. As we have one women's national team under contract, that is the 30, and we have five male teams under contract, effectively.

Why are the women's provincial teams not under contract?

They are not yet under the contract. I will hand over to Ms Cantwell. It is part of our ambition over the coming years to get to a space where we have four provincial contracted female teams. Does Ms Cantwell want to speak to that?

Yes. We have mentioned before that this is a growth story. That is really relevant when we talk about governance, who represents the women's and girls' game, what skills they have to understand the growth story, the phase we are at commercially and all the things we have spoken about. In line with that, when we look to women's sport, specifically women's rugby, we look to a game on stilts. We have a huge amount of investment that has gone into the senior teams over recent years. The effect of that is what we see now at a senior level. We have a growing game underneath but we have two long legs whereby the pathways and the representative opportunities on our pathways are quite skinny. That is what we call a four-province roadmap. How do we go on a journey with each of our four provinces to create aspirational senior teams that are playing competitively? For example, the Celtic Challenge is the elite competition that the two women's teams are playing in at the moment, and then they have their own pathway. There is a Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster 20s, 18s, 16s and so on. We have more opportunities for young teenage girls and young adults who have access to daily training environments, coaching and all the sports science and medicine. We need them closer to home as opposed to being centralised, which they currently are. That means that if you are a girl who is ambitious and committed to maybe playing with Ireland or maybe not or just want to play with Ulster, Connacht, Munster or Leinster, for example, you have that opportunity. Currently, that is there in the form of the interprovincial competition but it is still a relatively amateur competition. It is a competition of about three or four months, whereas what we want is to give girls, coaches and staff who have the ability and the ambitions to aspire further up the pathway more opportunities across the provincial teams to be able to do that and train-----

I am conscious of time. Does Ms Cantwell see the women's provinces becoming professional? Is that part of the IRFU's plan?

That is the journey we are on and that-----

Does the IRFU have a timeline on that?

We have started that already. We are working with the provinces. We have done a review of all the provinces-----

I am aware of that, but does the IRFU have a timeline on it?

We hope for the senior teams to transition into what the Celtic Challenge competition is at the moment in the 2027-28 season.

In relation to the men's professional game, could the witnesses give me an approximate contract amount per annum for one player? I do not need to know the individual player, but could they give me a comparison in the women's game?

We have a range of contract values in the men's game. I really do not want to-----

I do not need names of people, just an average-----

Could you give an average of both?

That is exactly what I am looking for, Chair.

I would rather not but I-----

Why not?

Because our contracting model and the salaries we pay are actually commercially sensitive. We-----

I am not looking for the individual; I am just looking for-----

But even with averages, we are competing with clubs in England and France and around the world for players.

I think people watching and people listening would like to have that figure. I do not want to be disrespectful to the witnesses, but the Government is here to provide funding - not all of the IRFU's funding but a crucial part of it - and people want to know how it is being spent.

There is no Government funding being spent on our player salaries.

Right, but is Mr. Potts prepared to give us an approximate figure?

I am just not prepared to put salary information for our players into the public domain. It is unfair on them and it could cause us problems in terms of the market base we are competing in to retain our players, so I would rather not, please.

Could Mr. Potts tell us - I am not looking for figures - how much an Irish woman is paid compared with a UK counterpart or an Australian counterpart - an international counterpart?

Our women's contract values are twice the average across the top unions in the world.

Thank you, Chair.

That was a very interesting point at the end.

I welcome all the witnesses. I will start where I think Deputy Gibney left off. It was a question about the news on the radio this morning in relation to Signify and the player affected by that. Obviously, I am from Cork as well so I had a particular interest in it. I am looking from the outside in. I never played rugby. I did teach in a private school at one stage and I saw there how big it is, how well resourced it can be and the commitment required to reach the top, elite level and the commitment given by those players. Rugby was always a sport that was built on respect. You can see that as a fan, whether you are looking at the way the teams view each other on the pitch or the way the referees and the officials are treated. The game can be juxtaposed with other sports in that regard, perhaps. That is always something that has stood out. Obviously, there has been complete disrespect not just for this player but also, from what the witnesses say, as regards other complaints that were made or that were highlighted when Signify did its investigation. I might give the witnesses the opportunity for a minute to reiterate the IRFU's stance on it and the potential repercussions for any members or any clubs or the sanction they might face. It is important to highlight it because maybe other sports will follow the IRFU's lead on it.

It is such an important topic. From an IRFU perspective and a provincial perspective - I can speak for the provinces too - social media abuse is completely unacceptable. Social media can be a force for good. Most of the comments we receive and most of the interaction on social media, I am told, although again I myself do not use them, is positive, with people engaging positively in the sport. Unfortunately, however, we have people who abuse players and players' families, and that is something the IRFU will do everything we can to root out to the extent that we can. In this case we will see how it evolves. If there are members of rugby clubs who are found to have been involved in this sort of abuse, Irish rugby will come down very hard on them. We want to root it out. Let social media be a force for positivity, but we have the systems to go after these people and we will.

I thank Mr. Potts for that.

The next series of question I will ask are not meant to be adversarial in any way; they are just to interrogate this.

I have a limited knowledge of rugby. We have some big rugby clubs in Cork. Old Christians is down the road from me, and my son wants to start playing. That is probably something we will jump into in the next few months. I taught in a private school, and a lot of my interaction with how rugby has evolved at that level. Professionally, it is dominated by that experience. You see boys of between 14 and 16 years of age in the gym three nights a week. Leinster and Munster coaches come into the schools. You have all the intense training, which is excellent. It is a great model that has obviously worked. I look at other sports. I am a soccer man, so I will use that as an example. I saw Troy Parrott scoring that hat-trick in Budapest not so long ago. I hope he scores a hat-trick next week. He is from Sheriff Street, which is a predominantly working-class community. Who is the next big rugby player? Are they coming through? What is the demographic breakdown in that respect when it comes to rugby? Are we going to have another Roy Keane? I hate to make it a class thing, but who is the next figure who is likely to pop up?

I will send on the map. We have rugby clubs all over the island. We run rugby programmes in all areas, including disadvantaged areas. I can provide some details offline if the Deputy wishes. We have a relatively small population as an island in any event. As a sport, we have relatively small playing numbers compared with the likes of England, France and South Africa. The only way we can continue to compete on the world stage is if we are identifying talent right across the island and giving them opportunities to come forward, as the Deputy said. We are investing more in the pathways in Munster, Connacht and Ulster at this point. It is something we intend to do more of in coming years, but we are running programmes in all areas. If any of the members of the committee see any potentially good players that we are missing, they should give us a call and we would be happy to look at them. We are doing all we can and are conscious that Ireland punches above its weight in rugby. In order to continue to do so, we need to tap into as much of the talent on the island as we can.

My questions are genuinely just meant to interrogate. They are not meant to be incendiary in any way. The IRFU brought Ireland into the top ten in the world in the male and female games. That is a phenomenal achievement. At grassroots level, are we seeing the origins of new clubs in working class communities? I know the older traditional clubs are there, but are we seeing the spillover of success from the national game? Are we seeing that with emerging new clubs, particularly in inner-city or working-class areas?

I can provide some detail on it. We are running programmes in inner-city areas. The Deputy asked if there are new clubs sprouting up from these initiatives. There are a lot of clubs across the island. The ideal outcome would be that players are moving to established clubs that already have facilities in place. I can provide more information on that. I do not have it to hand.

I would appreciate that.

We notice a difference between the women's and the girls’ game and the men's and the boys’ game. Lots of the things we talk about in the women's game is based on reach. The women's game is 33 years old, and the men's game is 150 years old. We are building and investing now and have to accelerate compared with what we have done previously. One thing we are noticing is that the local community club is really important for women's and girls’ sport and rugby. The Wicklows, Clonakiltys, Enniskillens and Barnhalls of this world are all community-based clubs. The approach that leadership and the executive take is that we are providing sport for our community, as opposed to boys or girls. It does not really matter. It means the experience for boys and girls in those communities and the women and girls in those communities has been really strong and positive. We have to capture and nourish that natural growth. It is really good because it is providing an opportunity for our girls to have a good experience and a sense of belonging, which is what we need to nail down in women's sport. We also have to recognise that the reason why men's and boys’ rugby has flourished in private schools is because of access to daily training environments and more funding to enable them to accelerate. We cannot discriminate against the girls for not having that. It is about finding a balance. We are seeing lots of really good local clubs that are thriving in the women's and girls’ space, which is great.

Does that answer the Deputy's question? I am disappointed that Ms Cantwell did not mention Nenagh Ormond when she was talking about the right mix. I played rugby for the guts of a decade for Nenagh Ormond. Even when I was in UCC, I stayed with Nenagh Ormond. For me, it was the best social mix ever. I come from a rural area, but there were people from different walks of life. It was psychologically and philosophically shaping. We won our first Munster cup last year. Unfortunately, AIL D1A is not working out great for us. There is an issue in that regard. A lot of the other clubs have centralised the development of players. A club like Nenagh Ormond would not benefit from that, which, I think, is probably discriminatory.

Many of my questions have already been asked. I will not repeat some of them, particularly those relating to women's rugby. I have one or two more. I often think about how women's rugby has changed. I am good friends with Rosie Foley. She is a neighbour of mine. She joked last year about her son who is currently playing for the Ireland under-20 rugby team. The recent caps he won were not his first because she played while she was pregnant with him. I look at the change in relation to funding over the past years from 2.1% to 9.5%. If it is at 10% of total funding now, what was it at in 2021? Will the witnesses calculate that and send the figure on to the committee? It would be interesting to see the jump and the difference. It is significant.

As a Munster rugby as well as Nenagh Ormond fanatic, a lot of people ask me in my role as Chair of this committee, about the funding model for rugby and the distribution of funding to the provinces. I try to compare it with the local property tax. The overwhelming majority of the local property tax comes from Dublin but there is an equalisation fund. The equalisation fund goes to Donegal and Tipperary, which are one and two. It is distributed across because it has to be. It is the 80-20 rule where 80 is kept and 20 is redistributed. I do not feel that happens in rugby. Leinster has a capacity given the population, volume of schools, capacity for revenue generation, advertising and all the rest. Other provinces do not have the same capacity. I was disgusted years ago - and was delighted that it changed - when there was potential to get rid of Connacht rugby. Where would we be now with the contribution they are making? I know coming now in August is that change from 30% to 40% in the distribution of funding as regards the provinces having to pay the percentage of player contracts. The simple fact is that the overwhelming number of players at male level are with Leinster. In any rational thinking, that is totally unbalanced, and most would say it is wrong. I think Munster has 45 elite pathway players at the moment. Proportionately, if you look at everywhere else, it is different again for Leinster. However, what is going to be done to rebalance that, because I do not think 40% is enough? I also think that all other avenues need to be looked at.

I would also like a breakdown of the 35 female players who are centralised. What is the breakdown? I tried to find it during the past week. I tried to find where in Ireland and in which province they were put. The witnesses might give us that figure as well. Those are my first questions.

One of the first things I did when I started in September 2023 was to look at the funding model for all four provinces. It is something I review every year. There is certainly a perception out there that because Leinster has a higher population, most of the funding goes to it.

In fact, most of the funding goes is equal. We look at it every year-----

When the witness says most, what does she mean by that?

I am going to clarify that now. The range of funding is in the €41 million. No province gets less than 23% and no province gets more than 29%. In the instance, of say-----

Who gets the 29%?

I will leave that with the Chair to answer that.

I am assuming it goes to Leinster.

It does. What causes the difference is we motivate provinces to produce national players for the national team. If you have more players in the national team, you get a little bit more funding. At present, it is Leinster, but in the past, you would have seen it was Munster-----

I know, I was at four Heineken Cup finals for Munster. There is a view out there that, being honest, is more than just a perception. Many very senior people in some of the provinces would be of that view, particularly when it breaks down to the development of players.

The witness asked the committee earlier if there was example. There is an under-16 outhalf for Nenagh, Cody O'Connor, who is incredible. At one point, I was going to jokingly say to somebody that he should give our outhalf a few lessons because the kicks he was doing were amazing. I am thinking about those players and how they can get through this process in the current set-up, and it concerns me.

That is a question put to us regularly. Going back to the funding model, there was a time when many of the national contracts were with Munster players, and obviously now it is with Leinster. We cannot do anything about demographics. The €41 million-----

I have seen the witness say that before but I do not understand it.

The €41 million is allocated pretty much equally, aside from the national contracts, which we are now addressing. If a province had a national contract, we used to pay 100% of that. Going forward, Leinster will have to pay, as will Connacht and whoever has a national contract, 40% of that from the beginning of next season. The moneys being released from that are specifically being invested in the male pathways of Connacht, Munster and Ulster. The person the Deputy mentioned in Nenagh Ormond should be picked up by an enhanced pathway. We want to see more players from the other provinces competing for places on the national team.

Is 40% enough? IRFU moved it from 30% to 40%.

We moved from 30% to 40% from nothing. We will review this and keep it under review. We are ensuring that our three provinces are competitive. We do not want to drag Leinster back. We want our provinces to be catching up with it.

I need to let others in, but I have just two final things. First, the other provinces do not have a school network like here in Leinster, and that is also disproportionate. That needs to be put into the IRFU's calculations, and it is not.

It is.

Well then provide the formula for me, because I cannot see it. Second, will the witness answer the question regarding the centralised female players and the breakdown by province?

We will get that to the committee.

Can the witnesses tell me what that is now?

No, I have not got the breakdown. We can send that on.

The witnesses do not have that here.

No. A total of 23 of the counties in Ireland were reflected in the rugby world cup squad that went to the world cup six months ago, which is a very different picture from the men's game.

Is it not a bit worrying that I could tell the witnesses who is from Munster, Leinster and Connacht as regards contracts on the male side, but I cannot find the female contracts, and Ms Cantwell cannot tell me here in the committee?

I just do not have it in this document, but I can get it within 30 minutes.

I wanted to touch on Sport Ireland's research from a couple of weeks ago on women in sport. Some 18% of the national coverage, 22% of radio and 15% of online coverage is of women in sport, and that last one is worrying. Everything is online now and every national governing body has an Instagram page or a Twitter account. More content is put online, even by national governing bodies, than was the case ten years ago. If the online reach is 15%, that is very low.

The 20 x 20 campaign was to get to 20% by 2020. There was definitely a lot of progress from 2018 to 2020. From 2020 to 2025, have we fallen backwards? Has the gas come out of it? It feels like it has gone backwards and it probably should have pushed on from 2020.

I would not say we have gone backwards, but we are very disappointed with the numbers and that is why we carried out the research. Sometimes, it requires that research to be visible and for the numbers to be visible in order for people to be accountable. We work very closely with Coimisiún na Meán, especially around the development of its strategy to ensure there is a broad spectrum of sports covered and that the women's sport is getting appropriate recognition when it comes to visibility. Ms Stapleton would have been most involved in that project and would have the details on that.

I hope this will answer and clarify some of the questions. The research we did into the gender balance in sports media was broken down into different levels. I think what the Senator is referring to is sports news. We looked at sports news across all the different platforms. With the online piece, we were surprised it was lower for visibility in sports news. We spoke to a couple of news editors who said the audience wants less information online so it is easier to get to. The research has presented opportunities for us to look at, for example, the share of voices across some of the big sports, including the IRFU but also GAA and golf, for example, with football at the highest. Diversifying the amount of sport that is visible will help to increase the amount of female sport on that.

What does Ms Stapleton think is something we as a committee or as legislators can push for on this side? I have been in sports newsrooms and the witnesses' colleague, Clíona O'Leary, led much of the progress on the national broadcaster in terms of sports news. However, it is currently quite flat.

What can we do to help from this side? Obviously, the research will shine a light on it, but it has possibly fallen off the agenda a little bit. Maybe I am wrong, but those percentages do not give much hope, considering we were targeting 20% and now it is 22%, 18% and 15%. I know that is sports news related, but that is how many people consume news about women. It is bulletins and snappy pieces online. What can we do to try to push that again? It is a jaded argument now. We cannot keep talking about women in sport in media. We have to try to find a fix.

That is why we did the research. It was to be proactive about it and to look at the next steps. Dr. May mentioned Coimisiún na Meán which we want to work closely with. We think the sports strategy there has a lot of potential, and any support the committee can give towards that and the actions or the recommendations that come out of that strategy will be important.

We are liaising closely with the various stakeholders who were in the report. Media form one very important piece to this. We know that resources are an issue with the media also, but we want to work with them to see what we can do to support that. We know from the research that more female journalists and pundits and having more females within media leads to additional coverage. Again, we are looking at whether we can run more media training programmes. For example, we have an internship programme at the minute. It is funding dependent from an overall budget we have in Sport Ireland to use. The internship model has also proven useful.

The NGBs and national governing bodies are an important piece and have to be considered within this too as regards whether they have the resources, for example, to unearth the stories that will then get the eyeballs and what the media want to show. There is an onus on the communication departments within the national governing bodies, but again they have - I would not say large - but they have resources in other sports. They do not have anybody or they might have one person trying to cover everything. It is about what support we can give to them to find better stories to enable players and athletes to create their own profiles and come through.

We have mapped out a couple of steps we are going to take in the coming months, and we look forward to that.

I feel like we have focused a lot today on the elite level, which is absolutely fine.

In terms of the grassroots side of things, this is where all these players come from. They start off in the clubs, play at whatever level and then come back. Seán O'Brien from my constituency went through the Leinster system process and played internationally, and he is now back playing with Tullow. It starts with your club. Players go off to wherever, but your club is your club, and it is the heartbeat of everything.

I am from County Kilkenny, on the Kilkenny-Carlow border. We have only one rugby club in Kilkenny. It is very successful, but we only have one rugby club. When I saw the map of the clubs dotted around the country, I noticed that there is a gap. We have only two clubs in County Carlow, in Carlow town and Tullow. Notwithstanding that, a lot of players from Kilkenny would play in New Ross. I just wanted to bring this topic up because I think it was mentioned that Navan, I think, has a third ladies' team. I was at the official opening of the new dressing rooms, facilities and gym in New Ross. Money was received from sports capital funding. It is a fantastic set-up and there is a brilliant committee there. The lady captain was at the official opening. The captain of the women's first team cut the ribbon. I thought that was extremely important and sent a strong message. I say that in terms of today being International Women's Day and concerning the importance of women in sport.

What was more pleasing for me was that, for the first time ever, New Ross had a second women's team. This is the sign of strength. You want to compete at the highest level and you want to win, but for me, participation is every bit as important, encouraging younger people to participate.

This is a challenge I will put back to the witnesses. I am from a rural place called Skeaghvasteen on the Kilkenny-Carlow border. Neither I nor any of my classmates, male or female, ever had the opportunity to play rugby because of geography. This is something I would like to ask the witnesses about. If people go to a fee-paying private school, they get all the best of everything in terms of opportunities to play rugby, just to give an example. From a rural perspective, when you are from a rural location like I am and you go to a DEIS school, you do not get the same opportunities to participate in sports like rugby. What is being done to try to address that imbalance at the moment between the access private schools get versus a normal, rural school in the Kilkenny-Carlow border area? It might be an area that only has a school, a church and a GAA club.

All of our development programmes are channelled through our provinces, so we are working really hard to continue to grow our playing base. When I go back, I will be asking my team specifically about the Deputy's area. I did not go to a private school. My rugby came through in a non-private school. It was actually the Guinness rugby club in its day. There are lots of clubs in areas, but if there is more work that the Deputy would like to see done in his area, I am happy to take that up with my colleagues in Leinster.

That is not to take away from the GAA clubs, by the way, because I am a staunch GAA person.

We like to do that too.

I was wondering if the Deputy was turning.

It is important to put that on the record.

He is ready to make sure-----

I just want to clarify that on the record.

Kilkenny rugby over Kilkenny camogie or hurling.

The last time Dr. Una May was before the committee, player welfare and safeguarding issues were mentioned. I think the IRFU was mentioned. Are there any ongoing issues in terms of either player welfare, safeguarding issues or misconduct?

In fairness, I think it was mentioned briefly earlier, but Mr. Potts never got the opportunity to answer it fully.

We had one player welfare issue, which is over thanks to the Garda. I do not want to give too much away, but effectively it did not involve anybody in the game. We had an elite player who had an issue with a member of the public. Using the Signify Group, mentioned earlier, we were able to address it. The Garda got involved, so we believe it is resolved.

There are no other safeguarding issues.

No.

I thank the witnesses.

I have two questions. First, I have a case study concerning a girl called Lucy Mulhall. I think her case was brought up earlier. Lucy Mulhall was brought into rugby. I think she scored three goals and four points in an all-Ireland final for Wicklow. Her talent was shown and the next thing, she was plucked out of obscurity. She ended up captaining the sevens team. She is from the village of Tinahely, which has no rugby club. She played fifteens rugby as well. I often wonder about these players, male and female. After the ball is over, literally, after they finish playing rugby, what protections are there? Is there anything there for these players financially? Do they, male and female players, have a pension or anything like that? There is also the mental aspect. Sometimes, people are on such a high when they are pulled out of obscurity.

My second question concerns Project Aviva. It is brilliant to see the ladies' team playing there. Is that going to be the norm? Is that the hope? What is the breakeven number being hoped for on the day? They are two completely different questions, but I ask the witnesses to try to fill us in with some information on both aspects.

I will lead on these questions. The Deputy raises a very important point, of course. We have elite players and athletes who are giving of themselves, and one day it comes to an end. They finish, and the question then is what happens next. We do provide support, primarily through Rugby Players Ireland, for career mentoring programmes and a range of activities before they step down to help them to deal with the new world they face. Rugby Players Ireland and ourselves work collaboratively on that endeavour. What was the second question?

It was Project Aviva.

I have not been asked before what the breakeven point is for playing a game in the Aviva Stadium. Our target here is to get 30,000 fans in the stadium and to make it the biggest. It is already the biggest. We already have 15,000 tickets sold. The target is at least 30,000. Of our fellow unions in the Six Nations, Scotland is hosting England at Murrayfield, and I believe they are at 45,000. I will make a big call out now to Irish fans around the island. I ask them if they can please get to the Aviva Stadium to watch Ireland play Scotland, and at least try to beat the numbers in Murrayfield.

If it is successful, no doubt it will be repeated.

Yes, it is our intention. The players themselves want to be playing in full stadiums with a good atmosphere. It is important that we can achieve that in the Aviva. If we do not achieve it, they may wish to play in smaller but fuller stadiums. It is our intention as of now, though, to play at least one game in the Aviva for our women's national team over the coming years, and the Irish public will play a big role in it. I make that big call out here.

Mr. Potts is right. Our intention is to try to get into the Aviva annually to build our fan base. We also need to move around geographically. A huge part of what we will do over the next five to ten years will be to continue to move around the country so we can bring the game into our provinces. This is very important. The Aviva game is an extremely important one because it enables us to build the fan and matchday experience. Deputy Cleere spoke before about marketing. One of the things we know in the women's game centrally is the fact that we do not necessarily market the men's game, because tickets go on sale and people buy them. We have our fans for the men's game. We do not have our fans for the women's game, and, therefore, we have to market it. We have to motivate for a marketing budget and motivate our sponsors to activate too to be able to get the game to reach a level of visibility that will enable us to get that fan base. We need to do this so we can bring fans into stadiums and show them the game, including parents.

Personally, I always have two hats on. I have a rugby hat and a women's sport hat. I do not mind if a little girl or a little boy is coming to a women's rugby game and just likes sport. They might stay in the sport or go to another sport and just keep watching rugby. I hope they do play rugby, if that is what they are made for, but we just want kids in Ireland to have a good time in rugby. We know we can do that because we have the insights. We just need to advocate for the funding and the sponsorship to be able to deliver in that regard.

I was rather surprised. It is the first time I have ever met someone from Munster with an inferiority complex.

That means they think they are the same as everybody else.

Yes. I was listening to Deputy Cleere, and I think a lot of people from rural areas are very involved in rugby. Deputy Cleere mentioned Seán O'Brien, but I am looking at someone like Tadhg Furlong. Locally, in my case, there is Foster Horan, and we mentioned Aoife Wafer as well, so they are there. I think, though, the question concerns that heat map of activity around the country. Additionally, in terms of women's rugby, and following on from the point made by Deputy O'Sullivan, regarding those from particular backgrounds, there may not have been access.

Are there particular areas geographically or in terms of socio-economic groups that we should be targeting as part of our overall funding? I am thinking as well here of a policy approach when we look at funding. This does not apply only to rugby but to the general point about sports participation.

On the athlete welfare issue, this is not so much about the safeguarding issue but about the mechanisms in place. We are aware of the concerns with other NGBs. Mechanisms must be in place that will allow and ensure that elite athletes, in particular, feel satisfied with the reporting mechanisms and that they have an input into the drawing up of those mechanisms.

To answer the first question, I am sure Sport Ireland is on this matter.

The best basis on which to invest in future participation programmes in rural or disadvantaged areas is the data which come out of the census and in which we see the population trends. That is something we did ten years ago. We looked at population trends and started to focus our resources there. With regard to sports policy, the committee could look at what the data shows regarding what the population trends will be over the next ten years. That would be good governance. It is where the money should be going, irrespective of whether it is rugby, GAA or soccer.

As someone who represents one of the fastest growing areas of the country, I am very happy to hear that.

All of our elite athletes, from academy players and women players to provincial players, are all employees. They all have access to a pretty robust and strong HR function and all of the HR policies we would expect to see. We also provide psychological support in the background. Ultimately, if any player has an issue, they can go to Rugby Players Ireland, which is their representative body, and we work really hard with it. The IRFU, our provinces and Rugby Players Ireland are really closely knit together. We have so few players compared with other unions. Ensuring that they have all the supports they need, for whatever reason, is really important to us.

Sport Ireland has no concerns about the processes in place in rugby.

Sport Ireland has no concerns at all for rugby. Rugby has a spirit of sport process, programme and initiative, the leader of which is a member of many of our committees, including our children in sport committee. That person contributes widely to a lot of the work we do in this area.

The witnesses are welcome. My apologies for not being here at the beginning of the meeting. My first question is for Ms Stapleton, as director of strategy. The 20x20 campaign may have been referenced earlier. Do we need to roll it out again across all sports to increase participation? It was successful and then it stopped.

The 20x20 campaign was an initiative by a marketing agency that had the support of the federation and sponsors. Sport Ireland was not involved. We supported and helped it from a participation point of view. We have not seen clear indications that the campaign helped massively with regard to participation. It was a hugely successful visibility campaign, and certainly around fan engagement. We do have some other campaigns taking place at the minute. From a participation point of view, we have a teenage girls campaign called Her Moves. Over the past number of years, about 25 000 girls have taken part in sport and have had opportunities to try new sports which they may not have had before. This is all very much evidence informed. We will continue the campaign, and we are looking at how we can upscale and utilise it across the country.

We also have Women in Sport Week, which was created a number of years ago and took place again recently. It is more of a visibility campaign to highlight the role of women in sport, whether as participants, coaches, volunteers or leaders in sport. There are some campaigns in place. The 20x20 campaign was massively popular. If we were to do something similar, it would require a lot of resources. We have a budget for women in sport, the vast majority of which goes to the national governing bodies and local sports partnerships. It is not to rule out anything, and we are looking at different initiatives or projects that we might put in place over the coming year or so.

My next question is for the IRFU. I come from Longford, and Longford rugby club is an exemplar. It has been ahead of the curve in recent decades in the context of facilities. It had the first flood-lit pitch outside of Dublin. It has a 5G pitch and massive facilities. I see the work the club has done on the ground. It is not in a fee-paying school area, but there are high participation levels in the minis on a Sunday morning, with 300 to 400 kids there. It is fielding at all levels, with a ladies team also playing. There was a big win over Mullingar the week before last in the Provincial Towns Cup, and there will be a big game against it again this weekend in a division 1B-2A league play-off. Longford RFC is an exemplar of the work that is done, but a large amount of that work has to be done by a voluntary committee. There is a cost involved in running both the number of teams involved and the facilities.

Longford is located right at the top corner of Leinster. A large number of our away games happen in New Ross, Wexford, Clonmel and other places. There are significant travel costs associated with that . Does the IRFU have a reimbursement scheme for clubs towards these costs, particularly with the increased costs we have now? Is there any support mechanism in that regard?

The one person in Deputy Carrigy's club who knows more than anybody what the IRFU can and cannot do is Pat Fitz. Whatever supports we provide to clubs are through the clubs of Ireland scheme. Deputy Carrigy is asking whether there can be more. I do not know whether there can be more; I would not think so, but I am happy to take the question back to the team.

Some travel and accommodation allowances are certainly paid to a lot of clubs.

What are the views of the witnesses on the rugby museum in Limerick that closed. I know this is not directly the subject matter of the meeting.

We had no role in that; it was a private enterprise. Is there a similar concept in Longford?

No, but we are open to being a location for it in the middle of the country.

Dr. May's opening stated that rugby is a category C funded sport. I assume that football and GAA are also category C sports. I do not know the answer, but I assume they are. Will Dr. May indicate how Sport Ireland arrives at that? They are probably the three most common or popular field sports in the country. How did Sport Ireland arrive at them all being in the same pot?

I also have a question for the IRFU. What funding does it receive from the equivalent of Sport Ireland in Northern Ireland or from the state in Northern Ireland?

The categorisation for sport is based on the governance code for sport, which identifies NGBs by how many professional staff they have. It is a categorisation that is purely for the purposes of the governance code of sport. The code is under review, and we are considering how it should be adapted in order to accommodate additional supports and recognition for the volunteer base of some of the smaller type A sports, which are entirely voluntary led. This is how we reach the classifications.

The IRFU does not receive any funding from Northern Ireland, but Ulster Rugby does receive some.

That question on funding is interesting. Does Senator Mullen want to come in? I do not want to leave him out.

I am listening with interest.

We should know this but how many organisations are in category C?

I do not have the exact number but it is approximately 15. It is between 15 and 20.

I was very taken with Deputy O'Sullivan's earlier questions on public schools and private schools, and how this works its way through. The response to my questioning earlier was that the funding coming through from the private school process, particularly in Leinster, is all factored into the equations as regards the breakdown of funding at a ratio of 40:60 and all the rest of it, downstream all the way through everything else. Will the IRFU provide us with a full breakdown of how all of this is done? Transparency is the IRFU's friend here. What percentage of its total annualised funding comes from the State?

A total of 3.5% comes from Sport Ireland and another small amount comes directly from the Government.

So it is about 5%.

It is roughly 4% to 5%.

So 96% is self-funding. That is incredible, and a big compliment to the organisation. As regards the downstreaming of funding, obviously there are all the centralised costs and then regionality and the four provinces.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked a question in relation to funding going to Ulster from the Northern Ireland Exchequer. I presume that is factored in with other funding coming from the IRFU. That is an additional issue I had not thought about. I am trying to get to the breakdown of provincial funding and all the elements within it and how that is calculated. Can the IRFU give that its best stab and write back to the committee regarding how that happens? That is my first request.

Year on year from 2015 to this year, what is the amount of funding that has gone into women's rugby as a percentage or as a total? I ask that because, again, I think transparency will be a friend in relation to that. I came through Nenagh CBS, which is as public a school as you can get. It is GAA to the backbone and it was the Dr. Harty Cup champions again this year. However, rugby players come out of there. There is a need for greater strengthening regarding the process by which non-private rugby playing schools have the capacity to contribute more to the sport. I think the IRFU should make huge efforts in that area because I believe the IRFU is probably missing out. I say that really as a necessity. I get the geographical distribution. I live near Limerick. I understand the differential and the socio-mix regarding different clubs and different areas. I believe there are geographical gaps, as Deputy Cleere has stated. I agree with him. If that reach went into those spaces it would help with both female and male. They are my two requests around funding.

We have a process in this committee where we have annual meetings with the FAI. Well, the meetings with the FAI is more than annual at this stage. We also have annual meetings with the GAA, particularly around integration. I propose we do the same with the IRFU. The IRFU should set their clock for this time every year, just after the Six Nations Championship. Its representatives might want to come back on those two questions I asked. Do they want to come back briefly now as well?

There is quite a bit of information we will pull together and come back to the committee on, if that is okay.

Yes. The regional breakdown is the question. To be honest, we use this committee from a transparency point of view because it really needs to be dealt with. The second request relates to women's funding, which also would be helpful.

I asked some questions earlier around the centralised contracts of female players and the breakdown of that. I understand why the IRFU does not give out averages. It could if it wanted to but I was not going to press that. I get why it does not give out salaries. I understand all the commercial aspects and that this is a world issue, because they are competing across Europe and the world, but the IRFU can give out contract durations. Could the IRFU provide contract durations regarding male and female? We cannot give figures, but I do not think there would be any issue regarding-----