We have apologies from the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Alan Kelly, and Senator Malcolm Noonan.

Today's meeting has been convened to discuss the progress on the integration of Gaelic games. I welcome the following witnesses: iarUachtarán na hÉireann, Dr. Mary McAleese, chairperson of the steering group on integration; from the Gaelic Athletic Association: Mr. Jarlath Burns, president; and Mr. Tom Ryan, ard stiúrthóir; from the Ladies Gaelic Football Association: Ms Lyn Savage, CEO; and Ms Trina Murray, president; and from the Camogie Association: Ms Karen Dessain-Gelinet, CEO; and Mr. Brian Molloy, president.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to five minutes. The statement will be followed by questions from committee members. It is proposed that the committee may publish the opening statement and presentation on its website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we move to today's discussion, I wish to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. McAleese to deliver her opening statement.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as an gcuireadh a bheith anseo agus as an suim atá ag na baill san obair atá idir lámha againn. Táim thar a bheith sásta leis sin. Tá imeascadh chumainn na gcluichí Gaelacha ar cheann de na forbairtí idirchumainn is suntasaí i stair ár gcumann. Deis órga é seo dár gcumainn, nach dtagann chun cinn ach go fíormhinic, le todhchaí níos láidre, níos ionchuimsithí agus níos inbhuanaithe a thógáil do gach duine a ghlacann páirt inár gcluichí agus do gach duine a thacaíonn leo.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today. Its interest in our work really gives us heart and encouragement. It is a great opportunity to provide an update on the considerable progress that has been made on integration since our last meeting in December 2025. Since that meeting, we launched the national roadshow, which has been a central focus of our work in recent months. We have presented our proposed roadmap to integration, beginning with one membership of one organisation in April 2027 and then the glide path to the fully integrated structures that will follow at all levels. Representatives of all stakeholders have had the opportunity to engage directly with the roadmap, feed back their views and have them reflected in our consensual, refined set of recommendations, which will shortly go to the central councils and then to the three special code congresses in October.

As members know, we are an advisory body, and the decision will be for the three congresses. That will be decision time for the integration of Gaelic games. With us, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. The feedback we have received so far, thankfully, has been constructive, thoughtful and encouraging, reflecting a genuine commitment across all three associations to ensure that the integration project is brought to fruition and delivered successfully.

We have explained painstakingly to everybody we have consulted, and we have consulted a lot of people, that our proposals have been designed not as immutable positions, but out of respect for their experience and to draw on their input, stimulate discussion, test assumptions and gather meaningful feedback in order to lead, as it has, to sensible refinements. Having listened to the ideas and concerns expressed throughout that process from right across the organisations - we are dealing with many representatives - we have addressed them and wound them into our final proposal, which is now nearing completion. Thankfully, it remains completely on track for resocialisation in line with the timeline that we originally presented and talked to the committee about last December.

Two examples of the key themes that emerged consistently throughout the consultation process related to finance and volunteers. On finance, this particularly related to the impact of the proposed player charter and the wider financial implications for counties and units. There will be costs associated with the future growth and development of Gaelic games, but most of that is going to arise regardless of integration. It is as simple as that. Our games, like our country, continue to expand and evolve. In response to the feedback received, considerable work is under way to review financial models and assess what a sustainable baseline framework for intercounty expenditure could look like within a future integrated association. That work is helping to provide greater clarity around costs, identify opportunities for efficiencies and ensure that future arrangements are equitable, fair and sustainable for counties of all sizes.

The second theme that arose related to the role of volunteers. Stakeholders were clear that integration must continue to recognise, support and harness the extraordinary commitment, expertise and experience that exists throughout our volunteer network, which, as members know, leverages immeasurable resources, energy and good for all Gaelic games, both at home and abroad.

That message has been heard clearly. We have been hearing it from the beginning. As has been the case from the outset, it is a fundamental consideration for us and for our proposals as they currently stand. We often hear integration discussed in the context of structures and governance. Its long-term success will ultimately depend on its ability to deliver practical and sustainable outcomes on the ground. That is why, at local level, counties and provinces have continued to establish and develop integration working groups. They are an increasingly important mechanism for engagement and inter-code collaboration.

In February 2026, the inaugural club summit was held in Croke Park. That brought together almost 1,000 attendees from across the three associations. The scale of participation and engagement at the event highlighted for us the strong appetite that exists for greater collaboration across Gaelic games culture. It also demonstrated the value of creating opportunities for shared learning, discussion and alignment across clubs and communities nationwide. Since our last meeting, the One Club research project has been completed and published. The members probably have copies of a nice shiny brochure. It will hopefully serve as an important reference point as discussions continue in the months ahead. The new GAA, representing all Gaelic games, is now less than a year away. It is ten months away. It will represent a beginning as oppose to an end. The new integrated organisation will have significant opportunities and huge goodwill as it strives to align structures, pathways and services over time. An implementation framework will therefore be essential in ensuring a clear roadmap towards deeper integration and supporting the practical delivery of the changes wrought by integration in the year ahead. That roadmap is what we have been attempting, between us all, to deliver.

Throughout this process, the steering group has been acting in accordance with the clear mandate we were given by the congresses of the three associations, which was to prioritise integration. We then got the subsequent overwhelming endorsement from members of all codes in the historic survey we undertook at the outset of our work. That has also been the wind at our back. There is no doubt that we have an historic and unique opportunity to create something special, but that will now sit with the three codes in the special congresses in the autumn. We in the steering group have done our best in the best of good faith, and we will continue to build momentum toward the delivery of a roadmap that will provide all members of the three associations with a strong foundation on which to make their historic, epoch-changing decision to create what I hope and believe will be simply the best and most inclusive amateur sporting organisation anywhere in the world. It will be an extraordinary organisation.

I thank all the people who have contributed and the people around this table who have made a huge contribution. I also want to thank the many hundreds who have gathered around our work over the past years and whose insight has helped us develop to the point we are at now. That engagement has been the backbone of our groundwork and ground-up proposals. When the integration project commences formally with one membership of one organisation in April 2027, the people who have been behind us all the way will continue to be the backbone of the process. They will be its energy and its momentum.

We particularly want to say that we appreciate the continued support, interest and engagement of this body. It has been heartening to know of its encouragement. I also give general thanks to the Government and officials throughout our process. We look forward to continuing these discussions in the period ahead. We are now in the most exciting phase of the past few years of the project because not so much is the end now in sight, but a new beginning is now in sight.

We went a little over on the opening statement. I am deputising in the Chair today, and I am not going to be the one who cuts the speech of the former President of Ireland. We will move to questions and answers from members. I propose that we take seven minutes each to get into the meat of it. If we have time for a second round, we will have one.

I thank all of the witnesses for coming in. I thank Dr. McAleese for her opening remarks. Like most people in this room, the GAA has been a huge part of my life. For me, it is far more than a sport. It goes way beyond that. It is community. It is friendship. It is a sense of belonging. It is those people in clubs around the country who cut the grass, mark pitches, make sandwiches and sell tickets. There are very few organisations that can bring people or communities together like the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association. I wanted to say that at the outset. I am proud to be involved. I am proud of what it stands for and I am excited about the future of the combined organisations for our next generation. I acknowledge the progress that has been made to date. I note from some of the correspondence that has been sent that almost a third of clubs in the country now are One Clubs. That is brilliant to see but there is obviously a lot more work to be done on the integration model. I always said that when we got to April 2027, it was never going to be a case of flicking a switch and everything was sorted. It was always going to be something that would evolve over time. Some people will be quicker to come to the table than others. Some clubs are more complex than others. There are a lot of issues out there. I acknowledge the work that has been done so far.

I have a couple of questions. I am conscious of time so will fire straight into them. A lot of people, particularly members of the LGFA and the Camogie Association still have a fear and a worry that integration could potentially just be seen as a takeover by the GAA. What power, funding or decision-making authority is the GAA prepared to give up and prove this is a merger of equals as opposed to the LGFA and camogie just being absorbed into the GAA?

I think Ms Savage is going to answer that.

That was a great hand pass there.

They are the people whose concerns and fears we have wound into all our considerations from the beginning. I preface this by saying the GAA has been more than helpful in that regard in understanding the fear not just of absorption, but of being overwhelmed. We have a need to ensure those two codes feel completely respected. Going forward, we also have structures that give them an open pathway to development on their terms.

It would be natural to have fears, but I think there are fears for all three associations. It is change for all three. A lot of the time, reference is made to ladies football and camogie. There will be change for all three, however. There is also excitement for the opportunities that lie ahead. It would be unnatural if there was no fear. There is change, and with change comes slight fear. The key thing for us, and it is why we went with the road shows, was to make sure we got the voices of the people this is affecting. That is from club right up to national level. More importantly, there is no point having the road shows without listening to the feedback that was given. The past number of weeks have been spent going through all that feedback and all the submissions that have been sent in. A big part of that was about representation and governance. They are the things we have been looking to tweak since our original proposal. That very much came from the voices of those in all codes as opposed to just those involved with ladies football and camogie. The biggest thing is that if we can make sure we have the proper representation and proper governance within the structures, then more people around a table should make it less fearful for all of us. There can be a narrative that there is a fear in ladies football and camogie. There has to be a bit of fear in all three associations, because there is change.

Most importantly, however, we have to welcome the opportunities about to lie ahead. As former President McAleese said, it will be the biggest amateur organisation in the world. There is excitement, but we need to make sure we listen to what we have heard and drive this forward.

I thank Ms Savage. Can Ms Dessain-Gelinet respond?

In Dublin the LGFA and the Camogie Association are very confident about our volunteer base and the level of expertise and skill set that we will now bring into the new GAA. There is definitely a place for that. Our colleagues here at the table have demonstrated their openness and willingness to look at that and see us a valuable asset coming in. It has the backing of our volunteers.

I thank Ms Dessain-Gelinet. What about Mr. Burns and those on the GAA side?

I am in clubs every day of the week. Last week, I was in St. James's in Cork, which has a female chair. Her name Thérèse O'Shea. She is an incredible woman. At every club I visit, I see that the main leaders are females. In the past 20 years there has been an explosion of female representation within clubs. I am not going to equate females with LGFA and camogie, although there is tremendous crossover.

We would be very naive in the GAA if we think that the camogie and LGFA people are just going to allow themselves to be absorbed, because we would not be able to run the new association if we do not have that muscle memory and embedded knowledge that will come from the other codes. In fact, whenever we talk about fears within the GAA, that is the biggest fear that our members cite, particularly at leadership level. We cannot afford to have the people in camogie and LGFA walk away thinking that might be the case. If they do, that will be a serious problem for the new organisation. We are going to need those people.

I have a final question. I am conscious of time. I will open it up to everybody. It is a challenge that is coming - the witnesses probably see it every day of the week - in regard to access to pitches and facilities. There are only so many pitches and there are so many teams. With all the organisations coming together, what do they see as the main challenges in terms of access to facilities? Do they have a timeline for levelling the playing field in order that, for example, there is equal access to facilities, albeit there may be governmental support required in terms of funding to increase infrastructure, purchase pitches, etc., because the demand is so great? Is that something the witnesses are finding on the ground?

Definitely. At the same time, I would not like that to be presented as an impediment to what we are trying to, because if we think about it logically and rationally all of the games under the auspices of all three organisations go ahead today and they get played. The challenge that we have is to make sure that they get played at a time and in a location that is convenient and works for everybody. We are starting from a position where everything that needs to be played gets played. The job for us, ironically enough, is not so much playing pitches as ancillary facilities such as dressing rooms, changing rooms and so on. I can only speak for the GAA. We are very proud of the facilities that have been built all around the country but they are not fit for purpose for what we are talking about in terms of the future of a combined organisation. There is a significant job of work to be done in that regard.

We spent the last while scoping out and costing what we think the gap is between where we are today and where we need to be with the current playing volume versus where we want to get to. The purpose of all of this is to grow Gaelic games of all codes and for all genders. We will not have succeeded if all we get to do is put in place adequate facilities for everybody today. We want to grow the thing.

We will move on. We will come back to the issue finance and how we figure it out.

Deputy Cleere has been cut off.

Mr. Ryan has a bit more experience. We could be here all day. That is the problem. All these people are so interested, we could be here all day if I do not cut them off.

I might just pick up on the cost. Before I do, however, I want to offer my apologies. I had a family funeral last December and was not here for the engagement at that time as a result. I am sorry I missed it. As a very proud Louth woman, it would be remiss of me not to mention Sunday's excitement and the momentous win in the dying seconds of the match.

Coming back to the cost, it was indicated at the outset that there will be costs associated with future growth and development. I accept that a lot of the costs would arise in any event. There have been conflicting messages from the steering group about what the integration might cost in full. Originally, there was a figure of €1 billion. Mr. Burns gave a figure of €500 million, which was contested by the Camogie Association in the press. Are we at a point where there might be further clarity on the full cost of integration and how it will be funded?

We could do it for nothing, but we will not get it right if we do it on that basis. The point that I was making related to doing it correctly. If people were to visit ladies' changing rooms, they would see the very rudimentary facilities that are on offer. If we say we are going to integrate on 1 January, do we then make a decision to forget about everything that is there already on 2 January? There is a full infrastructure in place for male athletes and nothing for female athletes. My point at the time was out of respect to the other organisations - that if we are going to do it correctly - we must have proper changing and showering facilities for females and all of the necessary equipment that is needed in a GAA club so females can participate at an equal level. That is what we are talking about in the context of what it would cost.

Mr. Molloy made a very good point in response to that. Of course, we can do it now and we can allow the integration to happen, but if we are going to do it and we are going to modernise, we have to consider that sort of money. The cost of construction, in particular for the type of infrastructure that we are talking about - toilets, showering facilities and plumbing - is very high. There is no doubt that we can do it with less. If we are going to do it correctly, that is the sort of money that will be needed.

We are not saying that should be an impediment. That is a long-term project. I know some people are talking about 2034. Facilities are what we should be talking about as we approach 2034. Whenever we give out our distribution to the GAA units and our infrastructure grants, most of the criteria for clubs now is whether they are using this money to prepare for integration. In our own way, that is us saying if they want to get money from us it is going to have to be towards that.

So it is still relatively up in the air. There are no definitive figures at this stage.

Not really.

That is fair enough. I understand the magnitude of the project. The audit of facilities probably threw many curve balls at people. I appreciate that but it was just to ask the question.

I would like to move on as I am conscious of the time. Insurance has been spoken about a lot. We spoke at length with Mr. Ryan about the partnership with Allianz. I have been very firm in my opposition to that from very early on. I note in the report on building towards one association there is an action to include a move to a single association-neutral registration membership and insurance scheme for all Gaelic games members. Is it forecast that this will be with the existing insurer or is it perhaps an opportunity to look at the overall insurance partnership. We are seeing growing opposition to Allianz. The GAA has fallen victim to many protests and whatnot, and we are seeing it step up a bit. We saw that with the Tyrone and Mayo match at the weekend when the St. Enda's club refused to sell match programmes because of the partnership with Allianz. If this problem is going to continue to grow, I am trying to explore whether there is a potential opportunity to explore a new insurance provision.

I would not like to conflate the two. The piece to which the Deputy refers in the document about player insurance is not actually insurance. That is a self-funded scheme that is operated by the GAA at the moment whereby we levy a small proportion of gate receipts. It is 5% of the receipts from every game that is played which goes into the fund. We also levy clubs and teams on a per-team basis at the moment.

Our friends in the other two organisations have different ways of going about the same thing, namely providing for the welfare for players. The imperative she refers to there is a combined ambition on the part of all three of us to implement a single arrangement for every player, irrespective of gender or what code they are playing. We are going to do that on a per-player basis. Again, that will be a self-funded exercise. It is independent of any specific insurance provider. That is our own funds being applied in respect of the welfare of our players.

I have a bit of a technical question. Out of curiosity, when we are talking about parity for female players, are they happy with the new two-point rule? I refer here to the 40 m arc. Have there been requests, for reasons of strength, to perhaps move the arc in slightly? We all know the Dublin men's senior footballers are struggling with the two-pointers. We might need to send Sam Mulroy up there for a little while to give them a few tips. Is it working for the women? Is it workable for them or will it have to be reflected on in the future?

As a proud Louth woman as well, I am happy today, too.

Absolutely.

The feedback has been the opposite. I was on the group that helped draw up the rules. To be honest, the big discussion was whether the two-pointer would work. As part of the pilot, the attitude was one of letting people try it. There has been huge positivity. The positivity from the players is that they have been allowed to showcase their ability to score two pointers. Throughout the league, they had 19 two-pointers and hopefully there will be more with drier weather in the championship, because it was not very nice in the league. The feedback has been really positive.

That is reassuring.

We are talking about integration, inclusion and being fair to everybody. I have to raise the games being put behind a paywall and GAA+. It is great for people - it was great for me when I was away on holidays a couple of weeks ago and whatnot - but it is posing difficulties, in particular for elderly people. I was in with my granny on Monday evening and she was giving out. She said she could not watch the match yesterday but she believed it was brilliant. My partner is a Meath man. There is great rivalry between us. I am doing wonderful things for building Louth-Meath relations. He was stopped in a supermarket on Saturday morning by a neighbour asking how they could avail of GAA+, as they wanted to watch the match. It is becoming a bit of a barrier for people to access the matches. I know there is 100% retention of broadcasting rights but is there any intention after 2027 to move to a free-to-air model? We saw Kerry County Council pass a motion very recently and that will grow legs as well. I firmly believe it is something that has to be explored. Great work has gone into building the game and evolving the game but we are putting it behind closed doors for a lot of people and shutting them out.

Could the witnesses be brief in their responses because this will come up a bit?

We show 300 free-to-air games every year. That is 90% of games. A subscription to GAA+ is €85 for a member. Over the 30 match days in the championship, we show 180 games. Not every game can be broadcast and certainly not every game can be broadcast free to air. I am sure the Deputy understands that.

The biggest pinch point we have was the weekend of 6 to 7 June. That was the weekend Kerry played Donegal on GAA+. Over that weekend, we also had Cork versus Meath on GAA+. The game RTÉ chose on the Saturday that weekend was Galway versus Kildare. On the Sunday, RTÉ had Dublin versus Kilkenny and Cork versus Clare. Over that weekend, there were three free-to-air games. Over that weekend as well, GAA+ showed Fermanagh versus Wexford, Roscommon versus Tyrone and Kildare versus Offaly. There were three or maybe four games that would not have been shown under previous arrangements. When TV3 had a package, it had 11 exclusive games. Sky had 14 exclusive games. GAA+ has 40 exclusive games. When the main contract is with a free-to-air public service broadcaster, it has to show a certain percentage of drama, news and all of the other things a public service broadcaster has an obligation to show. It is not possible for it to have the bandwidth to show all of the GAA games, in particular when it is bumping into the World Cup as well. It is showing every game in the World Cup.

The final point I would make is that I know we have received some criticism about older members not being able to see the games but that is not what our own research is showing us. We have done a deal with National Broadband Ireland so that everybody who gets a package with its providers gets free GAA+. It is free in hospitals and old people's homes. We are not getting feedback from older people to say they are complaining about it. They are just happy to be able to watch the games. In fact, they are now complaining that we are not showing enough games on GAA+.

Okay. We will have to move on. I am sure other members will raise that as well.

I thank all of the witnesses for the very valuable work they are doing. I approach this in a slightly different way. I see our role as legislators as supporting the building of communities. We all know that housing is the biggest challenge but it cannot just be about building homes. What we have got to do is build communities. I believe that part of our role is to ensure that every young girl or boy in the country should have the maximum range of opportunities to play whatever sport or cultural activity they want to participate in so that their childhood and adolescence should be the best, happiest and, hopefully, most competitive as well. The unified GAA will contribute enormously to that. A core part of that is the GAA document, entitled "No One Shouted Stop - Until Now". This is part of the big challenge we face. The challenge for all of those combined clubs around the country where there is a need, in particular in urban areas and fast-growing communities like mine, is how we can provide the additional pitches, changing facilities and so on, not just for the GAA but for the GAA operating with other codes. It is important for the witnesses to take part in that debate, as they are doing.

I will instance one very specific constituency case that relates to Arklow Geraldines Ballymoney. It is a very successful one club in Arklow. What it has decided to do is partner with St. Mary's College. It was traditionally an all-girls school but is now moving to become co-ed. The club is working with other sporting codes in the town to provide a pitch - a state-of-the-art facility - for use by the GAA but more broadly as well. I hope that the State will support the project through sports capital funding.

That is the kind of model we need to start to see developing. We can put all the rules we want in place, as the witnesses know - that is what they are doing - but are things happening on the ground? We can see a lot of that happening on the ground, but how can we facilitate it even more? We are not going to interfere in the internal rules of any organisation. That is a matter for the national governing bodies, NGBs. How can we support the integration on the ground to provide those opportunities for young girls and boys?

I guess that question is for me as well. I am glad Deputy Malcolm Byrne brought up the demographics report. The findings were very stark. Some 25% of all children from birth to five years in Ireland are in 50 GAA clubs. That is a very stark statistic, with 52% living in six counties even while 78% of clubs are in areas of rural decline. One in three people are born in Dublin or within one hour of Dublin. All of those things have massive implications for the GAA in terms of community. Where we have the facilities, we do not have the population and where we have the population, we do not have the facilities. The number one thing the committee can do for us is help us to try and restabilise the population and get people back living in the west, if that is possible. I do not know how it is going to do that. The question I always ask is whether the situation we have is something somebody sat down at some stage and said they wanted - where all of the population is living along the east coast and people are leaving the west coast. I do not think so. There is going to have to be a significant intervention in order to do that.

The Deputy brought up a really important point on the whole area of municipal facilities. We are very keen to talk to the Government. I do not say it is at an advanced stage, but we are moving with our colleagues in the FAI and the IRFU towards that model. At the weekend, the ard stiúrthóir, the LGFA representatives and I were in Manchester where Brighton rugby ground has become a ground share with a club in the GAA county of Lancashire. There are two fantastic GAA pitches side by side with rugby and everybody is using the clubhouse. That is the future for us. That is the future that we would be really happy to belong to - sharing facilities with other sports in the one area, in particular when it comes to coaching and training hubs.

I might suggest that at some stage we would engage with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, as the representative body for local authorities. This is a very specific area that we should look at.

We have been to its annual congress and we have spoken to councillors. We are engaging with all of those bodies. Demographics will affect all of us.

It is impacting on all sporting codes. Mr. Molloy and I have chatted about this. I remember studying history in school and learning the history of the GAA and Hayes's Hotel. A lot of history is told through the eyes of men. It is probably important that we start to hear the story of women in sport as well.

I appreciated the few minutes we spent chatting earlier. It is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine. I have raised it for the last two or so years. It is the one component of our culture that is not taught in our national schools. We teach about the Irish language, poetry, literature, dancing, singing and music. The one piece we do not teach in national school and that is not on the national curriculum is Irish sport. Every time I speak to people about it, they all look at me and say that is a fair point.

We have had a conversation before, and I think one of the things this committee can be strong on is bringing forward a recommendation that this be looked at. It touches on some of the earlier points raised. I would love to see a model where the same number of people who understand the history of a group of men walking into a hotel in Thurles to form the GAA in 1884 also understand that just 20 years later a group of people were in Dublin forming the Camogie Association. People do not know that. People are never told about Máire Ní Chinnéide. People are never told that in the late 1800s camogie players in Dublin had to hide their hurls under their skirts when they were getting the trams across to the Phoenix Park to play the game they loved. It was nothing to do with the GAA. It was to do with the fact that society, doctors and clergy at the time said it was inappropriate for women to play and be involved in physical activity. Those women were absolute heroines, and they drove that forward at that time.

I would love to see an environment where, maybe not my kids but kids after that, when they come out of national school, know and understand the history, ethos and background of the three associations and where they came from, and will know the fundamentals of playing the game. That every girl and boy will know how to play camogie and hurling in every national school in the country is something we should aspire to.

I recommend that we write to the Department of education and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to look at exploring this as an issue.

Yes, absolutely we can. The Deputy is pushing an open door. I have a book somewhere I wrote about it. I can send it on. I will move on to Senator Kennelly, who is substituting for Senator Ahearn.

I welcome everybody today. My connection to the GAA goes back a long time. My job is to sustain it for the next generation. In light of the upcoming integration of the LGFA and the Camogie Association into the GAA, there is a critical need to ensure that women's Gaelic games are given more visibility and recognition. Broadcasting decisions must be prioritised to grow the game, showcase the players and ensure that all supporters, including grassroots volunteers and the elderly, and especially our children, can access matches free to air without any barriers. The national feedback I am receiving right now is that the GAA is locking out the very people who made the GAA what it is today. It is the volunteers, as has already been stated by the Deputy from Kilkenny, who cut the grass, line the pitches and carry kids all around the counties to play the games and make sure they get to the games.

The GAA is now putting our national games of football and hurling behind paywalls and for me that is not right. It is not working. It is causing division and anger and the GAA needs to address this asap. It has taken the games out of the homes of people I represent who cannot access them. A total of three games last weekend were not broadcast at all. For six counties it was a case of buy a ticket or listen to the games on the radio. How is this promoting our national games? The games were Cavan versus Dublin, Kerry versus Kildare and Donegal versus Cork. GAA football supporters in Kerry got to watch their team once on RTÉ free-to-air this year in a Munster final with an attendance of over 32,500 people. They saw them twice on GAA+, which was Kerry versus Clare and Kerry versus Donegal in round 1. Last weekend, in round 2, Kerry played Kildare. Two hours before that the Kerry ladies played Kildare in Newbridge in the same venue with the same opposition, and it was free-to-air on TG4. This is not adding up.

There is also the feedback I am getting nationally from a local club in north Kerry, St. Senan's, five miles outside of Listowel. They collected a small group of seven elderly supporters from their homes to watch the games in their community clubhouse in Mountcoal. That is the feedback I am getting. No matter what the broadband is telling me or anyone else, they are telling me that these people cannot access. They do not have the technology or the capabilities. They do not have the know-how to go on stream. In that small club in north Kerry, they came into their own clubhouse to watch their club man, Cillian Trant, play for the county. It was stated a while ago by the Louth Deputy that Fine Gael councillors on Kerry County Council brought an emergency motion to write to the GAA. It stated:

This council calls on the GAA to ensure that all inter-county senior football or hurling games for 2027 [onwards] are available for all to see on free-to-air TV and, where required, [through accessible] ... online streaming platforms. Everyone should [have the opportunity] ... to watch their county teams compete at inter-county championship matches.

Here are the questions I have in my short time. Will the integration with the LGFA and the Camogie Association result in a commitment by the GAA to promote all of our national games, men's and women's, by broadcasting free-to-air from 2027 using streaming where there is a shortfall and ensuring visibility of all games in homes across every county in Ireland? The next question is directed to Mr. Ryan. Who makes the decisions on broadcasting rights and match selections? Will this process be transparent under the integrated structure? What criteria are used when deciding which games are broadcast and how is fairness ensured across counties and competitions? My next question has been posed to the director of communications in the GAA, Alan Milton. What revenue is being generated from the GAA+ paywall? This is a question he avoided and would not answer. What guarantees can be provided by the GAA that matches will not remain predominantly behind paywalls, limiting access for supporters, particularly families and elderly viewers, who do not have the relevant technology? We have a duty to work together to agree a fair compromise to allow everyone access to watch the integration of the biggest sporting organisation in the world and make it accessible to everybody.

The Senator is actually incorrect. I heard the interview Alan Milton did. He is here today. He was reluctant to answer the question about the audience figures, as are all subscription channels. It is important we do not give out that information. With regard to our commercial income, we are an organisation of stakeholders, not shareholders. We give 83% of our money back. Our commercial income is open for everybody to see. We take in €24.7 million. How do we spend that money? We spend €15 million of that money on coaching and games. That is the 375 coaches who go round the primary schools teaching our games to young people. We spend the other €10 million on infrastructure and that is allowing clubs and counties to upgrade their facilities. We give 83% of our money back. That money the Senator is talking about, which we are taking in from streaming, is going on bibs, cones and teaching our children how to play. We took in €95 million last year. FIFA is going to take in-----

Is that on gate receipts?

Hold on. That was after tax. It was €141 million. A sum of €95 million is the core amount we have to give out. FIFA will make $13 billion out of the world cup. That is what we are competing with. Our members are quite happy, and have told us in all of the research we have done, with the fact that we have 300 free-to-air games every year. We have 180 championship games on 30 match days. We simply cannot show every game. We also have a question we have to ask ourselves. How much is enough? We do not want to show every game live on television. We are a participation sport. We are not a sport for sedentary people who just want to sit and watch it on their televisions. That is notwithstanding the fact we know there are some older people who find it difficult to access it. That is something we are definitely looking into. We give out 30,000 nursing home passes, 5,000 hospital passes------

Mr. Burns can keep going. I will give him his time back, but I have to go to vote. I am obliged by another commitment to be absent from the meeting for a time. Is there any objection to nominating Deputy Ó Snodaigh to take over for a few minutes? There is no objection. Mr. Burns may continue.

There are 4,000 intercounty player passes so all of our intercounty players get it free. There is also a free pass for anyone who connects to the National Broadband Ireland fibre plan. It is €150 for GAA clubs. All of those people are quite happy to pay it. If we are going to make GAA+ a free-to-air service, we will have to take a significant number of millions out of our income. We are going to ask ourselves a question. I have the pie chart here and the Senator can see it.

How much income is coming in?

I just want to say-----

You are not answering the question I posed. You are going around a corner.

What do we not fund?

Mr. Burns has not answered any of my questions so far.

He is working his way through it. Just give him time.

We are here to talk about integration as opposed to GAA+. We will be renegotiating the broadcast arrangements next year. We will take into consideration everything that has been said. Ideally, we would love to show even more than 300 games a year free-to-air but it is impossible under the current scenario where we are working with a public service broadcaster.

Go raibh maith agat. We will have to leave it at that seven minutes. If you wait-----

A Chathaoirligh, would you like me to address? The Senator had a couple of other good questions.

There are seven minutes for the questions and that. If the Senator waits until we have gone through the full round, he can put the questions again or just ask for the answers. I call Deputy Gibney.

I thank the witnesses for being here and for their contributions. These have been really interesting discussions. I appreciate the sense of excitement that is coming through from their contributions about where they are as an organisation or as multiple organisations who will become one.

Before I get into questions, I have two quick comments. First, to build on Deputy Byrne's comments around the boycott, divestments and sanctions movement, which we can see is growing in momentum day by day, I urge the GAA to reassess the partnership with Allianz. In relation to Mr. Molloy's comments about the school curriculum point, it has the potential to be hugely positive for communities, for cohesion, for integration and participation in our national games. I am really interested in it. Perhaps it is something we can discuss in more detail in another meeting.

I have four questions. I will get through them all and everybody can pick them up as they wish. The first few relate to governance. which is an area I am interested in, and how they are handling it at this stage. Within the report, challenges and best practices are shared, such as underlining the importance of clear communication, the development of a shared vision, adequate consultation, etc. What sort of guidance will be provided to clubs beyond the release of this revised one club model guidance document? Will support be available to clubs during the extended period following integration and what will that support look like?

The second question builds on that. The need for a new one club guidance document is referenced in the report that has been shared. It outlines that it should include governance templates, a sample constitution, financial integration models and so on. Who will be responsible for formulating that document? What will they draw from? Who will there be consultation with - consultation is referenced within it - and what is the timeline for delivery of this document?

Governance and representation are also covered in the report. It is an interesting section because how that governance foundation is set will set it up as an integrated organisation for success or failure. Is there an argument for equal representation from each legacy sporting body on club boards for the period of integration and immediately following, so that club legacy and the culture, for example, can be retained, which some of the smaller camogie clubs might otherwise be in danger of losing?

My final question is on dual players. We touched a little on this. Dual players are experiencing issues at present with fixtures, facilities and player welfare, especially women. The organisations have all said that this will be addressed as part of integration but given how ambitious their timeline is, how do they plan to address it in the immediate term if the 2027 deadline is not met because we know it is an ongoing problem at county and club level?

Those are all my questions. I will hand over to whoever wishes to take them, if they want to take them.

I can do some of it and I will probably defer then to a number of my learned colleagues to answer other bits on it.

On the representation piece, we have a model proposed around a 60:40 split of 60% GAA and 40% of the female organisations. The logic of equal can look great on paper but then you look at it. For example, in my original home county of Longford, where a very limited amount of camogie is played, it would make no sense for the Longford county board to have the same number of camogie representatives as it would have football representatives.

Even on an interim basis?

Even on an interim basis. Longford is a really good example. They play their camogie in Westmeath because there is not sufficient camogie in the area. Leitrim has one camogie club, in Carrick. It would not make sense to do that at a county board level, but as to fair, reasonable and equitable, absolutely.

The revised version of the structures, which Mr. Burns referred to in a media report over the last couple of weeks, are being brought through by us to our respective management committees. Once we have gone through that governance process internally ourselves, we will be socialising them with membership. They will then be provided and available to the committee. One of the key areas there is around adjustments to that representative structure to ensure there is a greater feeling of ownership and continuity of the ethos of camogie and ladies' football within the confines of the GAA organisation. We are aware of it. It is one of the strong pieces of feedback that came back to us. We have taken what we on the steering group believe collectively, between camogie, ladies' football and the GAA, addresses that issue as we go forward.

The pieces on the one club and governance, and the templates and where they will come from, I will probably throw to Mr. Ryan to deal with.

With regard to where we are going on integration and the model, the reality is we are not forcing any clubs to integrate. The late great Joe McDonagh, who was from my club, corrected a person before for referring to a club as a small club. There is no such thing as a small club in Gaelic games. We may have small numbers of members but we are all part of a massive collective. The model will be that any club post integration that has not decided beforehand what it is going to do, when we hit that point of an integrated environment, will continue to be a club as it is. It may only have one code being played within it. It will have the capacity to operate multiple codes, if it so desires. However, lots of clubs will say that they will just keep going as a camogie club and they will now be a GAA club. Their national governing body will be the GAA rather than the Camogie Association but everything else will stay the exact same. We will not force any club to go down the road, engage with and become part of a larger club, unless they on the ground decide that is something they want to do. That process will take time. That will not be done in 2027.

We touched on this the last time where there was potential duplication. Mr. Molloy says they will not force, but will they incentivise? What would incentivise look like?

There will be conversations with clubs post integration. The first step is to get to a single association so we have one national governing body. That is a fundamental change and a transformative change in Gaelic games. The focus is to do whatever we need to do to make sure that people feel the structures we are putting in place as part of that amended version of the GAA - the new GAA as it has been referred to - reflect their ethos, background and connection to their code, whether that be ladies' football or camogie. We get that across the line in April. That is the primary piece. Nobody will be forced to give up what their current organisation structure is. Nobody will be forced to change the fact that they have a club in a parish and they just play camogie, there is another club up the road where they just play ladies' football and they will now be two GAA clubs. Over time, there will be processes that will facilitate both of those coming together, but that will happen over time and it will not be forced.

Okay.

Was Mr. Ryan trying to come in here?

Is that okay?

I gave a bit of leeway to the previous member. It is okay.

Oddly enough, you could make the case that the best-run units in the organisation are clubs. From that point of view, you could also say that a light touch is what is required to enable them to still flourish. The underlying document that will govern the governance and structures within clubs is what we have today - the club constitution. We took a good look at that and we decided that it is broadly fit for purpose today for what it does. It allows clubs to flourish within an overall framework without depriving them of the degree of autonomy they need to be able to manage their own affairs. We will have a new club constitution but it will be very close to what we have today. We will then be in the realm of guidance and support for clubs rather than a diktat. As you go elsewhere in the organisation, that might change a little bit in terms of emphasis and the degree of support, guidance or oversight that is required.

At different levels.

Clubwise, it will be light touch. The extent to which they want to change and, as Mr. Molloy says, to adopt new codes, etc., will be at the discretion of clubs. That is what will guide us.

Ba bhreá liom, i dtosach báire, fáilte a chur roimh na finnéithe uilig agus mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leo as an méid a dhéanann gach eagraíocht ina measc chun meanma na tíre a ardú i gcónaí, go hairid ag am ina bhfuil go leor fadhbanna ag daoine ó chian agus ó chóngar. Tá dhá ceist agam.

I have two questions. One is focused on the local and financial and the other is maybe focused more on the organisation and political. Very often in Ireland, the question of money is where the rubber hits the road. When asked about the issue of some clubs charging LGFA and camogie clubs, Mr. Burns stated in December at the previous meeting that those are things that should be cleared up straight away and dealt with. Listening to Mr. Molloy, is that something that can only be dealt with through that expected further gradual integration or has any progress been made on that issue since December that Mr. Burns can tell us about?

Every club I go into, I will always ask them what is the status of their integration. It is not the leading question. There is no right or wrong answer to it because in every club they have their own way of finding an equitable agreement. For example, if there are two GAA clubs in a parish, there might be one parish LGFA and camogie team and that works for them. In some cases - very few cases - there is a situation where the LGFA and camogie club pay to use the GAA premises. That is mainly to pay for the mowing of the lawn and putting out the lines. A lot of clubs have robot lawn-mowers that are paid for on a monthly basis. I would prefer if all of that was given free of charge to our sister organisations. I made the point and Senator Ní Chuilinn has referenced that the GAA had 150 years to set up ladies’ wings to the organisation and we never did so. We should be doing everything that we can to try to facilitate this as best as we can. I would also say-----

I apologise for interrupting but is that something that could happen sooner rather than later, depending on the organisational structure rules from within the GAA?

The clubs have, as the ard stiúrthóir has said, incredible autonomy as to how they spend their money.

I realise that.

That is how we operate. The clubs have enough money-----

Is there a kind of mission policy set out where clubs are being urged from headquarters that it is not good practice to be charging? Has there been any communication from the centre on that question?

I would like to see a facilities charter or facilities protocol as one of the critical moments in integration where the hierarchy of who gets to use the main pitch is decided and that it starts off, let us say with the senior teams either camogie or LGFA or Gaelic games, then it goes down to underage. In some clubs, it is the underage football team that gets to use it before the senior camogie team-----

On the specific question before I move onto the second question, is there any kind of messaging, formally or otherwise, from the top about this in the meantime?

There is not at this stage. I would imagine that all of that will emerge in the round whenever the critical moments occur in integration.

The second question is perhaps a bit more knotty. Members got a letter from Danielle Loughrey and Mary-Anne McNulty of Gaels for Fair Play this morning. They are concerned about the LGFA's current policy of permitting trans identifying men to complete based on what they say are outdated testosterone criteria. They wonder what the implications of that are for integration and what the implications of integration would be for that policy. They say that policy would create deep regulatory frictions, safety concerns and structural misalignment. They say that the policy currently compromises playing safety, specifically regarding physical advantages in contact environments. They point out that the UN special rapporteur on violence against women concluded that undermining-----

I remind the Senator that we are here about integration.

My question is all about how this problem is going to be dealt with in the context of integration. Is it coming up? Is it under consideration? What direction are things likely to go? Before I was interrupted, I was saying that the UN special rapporteur talked about undermining the eligibility criteria for single-sex sports results in the unfair, unlawful and extreme forms of discrimination against female athletics on the basis of sex. They also point out that the LGFA policy diverges from the sex-based exclusions adopted by World Rugby, the IRFU, World Athletics, the International Olympic Committee, Swim Ireland, etc. I would be grateful if the witnesses could address that question.

Ms Savage could address that question well.

I can take that question. The LGFA has a policy. It was in place prior to any guidance being given to Sport Ireland or anyone because we have clubs that wanted to be inclusive. Our tag line is "Where We All Belong". If people do not feel like they belong, there are questions to be asked there. To keep it tied to the Senator's question, we have a Gaelic games transgender group that is looking at a Gaelic games policy. That is a body of work that is currently under way. It is not just because of integration but it is because it is needed in relation to Gaelic games. We have a policy there in place, but the bodies are all together looking at what a Gaelic games policy will look at. That is a body of work that is currently under way.

Currently, my understanding is one of the three bodies has this policy and the other two do not. How is this going to work in the context of integration? Is there going to be a single unified policy in the context of an integrated organisation? What does the organisation have to say to the concerns that people have about the safety of young girls?

The aim is to have one single integrated policy across all codes. We understand that there may be concerns. There have been seven applications since this came in in 2023, which is not a huge body. There have been no applications through the risk, which is there is an avenue for clubs to do. There are a few voices in it, but the majority and particularly for the minimal number of players who are playing, their clubs have been the most inclusive place for them-----

Is Ms Savage happy that the current policy secures the safety of young girls in the light of where other organisations are going on this? Protecting women's spaces is increasingly seen as an important justice for women issue.

Everything that is there has been place up to date. We are working currently together across Gaelic games in the review process-----

Is the organisation thinking of rethinking it?

We work across Gaelic games as committed to.

I thank the Senator. Next is Deputy Ó Snodaigh.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as a bheith anseo agus as a gcuid tuairimí a roinnt linn agus iad i mbun ceann de na jabanna is mó sa tír. It is very difficult when one is trying to amalgamate organisations or anything else. As I said before, I wish them well. They have set themselves quite ambitious deadlines. That is because the membership wants those deadlines met. I wish them luck in achieving those deadlines. I have been in many clubs in this city as a player - not any more, I can guarantee you that. They are all of different standards. In this city, most of the clubs are dependent on the local council for the pitches. Even for the most successful ones or some of the most successful ones, people are surprised that they own no pitches and do not own a clubhouse. That is the same in rural Ireland where sometimes they are lucky enough to have a pitch.

The big challenge I can see from the club I am with at the moment, Good Counsel Liffey Gaels GAA, is that Dublin City Council owns the pitches. There is huge demand for the primary pitch. It is whatever codes are being played; they play three codes at Good Counsel where it was not before. It means there is a challenge to keep the main senior pitch fit for purpose because it is also a public park. Nobody can be stopped playing on it. The club is looking at the council and the GAA on the sports capital grant to try to ensure that the facilities are there and the integration happens at the full level so that all codes have the same access to the senior pitch. In fairness to the club, they do. There is a demand for an all-weather pitch and better dressing rooms. They have other pitches off-site that do not have dressing rooms attached to them. Is one of the big challenges to make the facilities fit for purpose for all the codes of the new GAA being at an equal level in terms of access to pitches and other facilities?

I will come in on that one. I thank the Deputy for the question on it. One of the pieces that was identified - and we have been talking about the ambitious timeline for integration - is that the creation of a single national governing body in April 2027 across all the codes is not the end, as the former President said in her opening statement. It is the beginning of the next phase of moving forward from there. The integration itself at that time will not add a single additional fixture to the calendar and it will not remove a single facility from the country. That does not change the fact, for worse or better, that we have a challenge with the access to facilities, particularly in certain areas. The demographic report picked it up. There are certainly big issues in Dublin clubs.

Having grown up in Longford and Galway, although my late dad, was a Dub, I would not have had visibility on the extent to which the Dublin clubs are reliant on the council to get access to facilities. We have an issue with facilities. We have a very fast-growing population. Thankfully, we have fantastic growth happening in the female games as well as in the male games, which creates demand for more games and facilities. That will happen whether integration happens or not. It is happening irrespective of integration. However, it is an opportunity for us in the context of a post-integrated environment where, with 1 million-plus members, we are we in a better position to influence and attract capital, which is what will be needed, and engagement from other organisations, local authorities and the Government regarding the necessary capital that will be needed to provide those extra facilities.

This is absolutely tied into integration. It was one of the three Fs mentioned way back - and I see Larry McCarthy, the former uachtarán, was here earlier - around integration, fixtures, facilities and finances. Facilities are a key component. We needed to resolve that regardless of whether we ever decided to enter onto the pathway towards integration. We are not inventing female players, ladies' football or camogie; the demand for fair, reasonable and equitable access to pitches is there already and would need to be met regardless of any decision to go down the route of integration.

While I am on the subject of all-weather pitches, I hope the GAA is fully across the EU directive to stop plastic being used in the making of such pitches. That directive will be a challenge in the future when it comes fully into effect. Now is the time to be preparing clubs that will be looking to replace or upgrade the surfaces of some of these pitches. I have raised this matter with the Minister in order that the sports capital grant will be tied to it n the future. He did not say either "Yea" or "Nay", but it is a side issue.

I do not have a problem with GAA+. I am one of those who understands that people pay to go to watch matches. There are ways of changing it to make it more accessible. It will be a challenge to ensure that there are an equal number of matches on it as opposed to just senior men's games. There must also be senior women's camogie and Gaelic football matches. What are the plans for the future?

In relation to our current situation, we have been in partnership with TG4 for 25 years. The contract has been extended to 2032, which is fantastic. Both our association and the visibility of our sport grew a lot alongside TG4. No doubt that will carry on into the future in the new, integrated society.

TG4 has done a lot, not just for the ladies GAA but also for League of Ireland. Women's League of Ireland football in particular used to struggle, and then there is basketball. It is fantastic. It could be a model for other broadcasters to look at in the context of investing more money, because people want to watch matches. TG4 would not be putting them on otherwise. One of the problems it that people watch at home rather than going to matches, which is a challenge. Sin é.

I was at another committee meeting talking about publicans, so I apologise if I ask any questions that have been asked already. Is there an update on the timeline for integration and where we are going? I know there is a change coming up in the presidency. Does the steering group carry on or what is its status?

I will reiterate what I said at the beginning and then repeat something I said back in December. Our timeline remains the same. We are on course for a timeline which says that we now have our near-to-final report, which is our roadmap to integration. In the next week or two, it will go to the management committees of the three codes. It will either be accepted or there may be some tweaking. Then the final document with the roadmap to integration, structure, timeline, transitional arrangements and glide path to full integration will go to three special congresses of the three codes in October. This will be with a view to asking them to give the green light to the establishment of one organisation involving one membership beginning in April 2027. We are on course for that. We will have a new president of the GAA next February when Derek Kent takes over. I have talked at length with him about this. He is 100% behind the timeline, the new membership structure and the new organisation.

This is the start, not the finish. This new organisation will have a lot of work to do. That is the bottom line. Mr. Molloy came up with a great expression where he talks about the glide path from that moment in April onwards. There will be an implementation group. This is where we can probably help the Deputy. Our advisory body is not an implementation body but one will be needed. This body will navigate the one organisation and one membership piece from April on, and then there will be the glide path that will bring the new organisation at every level - club, county and provincial - deeper into a fully integrated model. That is the plan, and we are on course for it. However, let us not forget that it is not our decision. It will be the decision of the three congresses in October. We will have the roadmap as refined and as near perfect as we can get it. It will be ready to go to the management committees in a week's time, and we will have our fingers crossed that the three congresses will fully honour the mission that was given to us by them when they asked us to give integration priority.

To be clear, will the steering group be going forward with it or is the job finished? I know it is the start of a new road, but will the steering group going forward with it?

We will be part of the transition arrangements and of the overseeing process relating to those arrangements, as it moves from us and our advisory status to full implementation. There will come a point when this body will disappear.

Are all three bodies 100% on board?

We will know in October. At the moment, we believe that to be the case emphatically, because that is what we are being told. We know from the survey we carried out at the beginning of the process that over 99% across all the codes, organisations and age groups are behind integration. We know because we have consulted so widely. We know the huge support. We also know the fears and concerns, and we have addressed those to the best of our ability to try to close off the leaching of support by means of concerns that are not being addressed. We have done our best to address all those concerns. We believe we have done that to the best of our ability.

I apologise if this question has been asked already. Has the cost been discussed?

Yes, we have talked about that one. How long is a piece of string? I will put it like this: there will be costs associated with the ambitions we have and that Gaelic games have for their development in a country with a growing population, and a young population, and particularly where we really want to develop women's sports, which are so coming into their own. Mr. Burns spoke brilliantly earlier about the facilities. Some of our facilities are brilliant but some are not so brilliant. We have an ambition for them all to be fantastic, but they will not all be fantastic in April 2027. However, we will have a growth of our games and we will have an ambition to be the best and to create the best facilities, but there will be costs associated with that. What are they going to be? They will be a lot.

Should that not be a key part of the group's report? I will let Mr. Burns in if he wants to comment. Please understand that, as I said before, I am fully on board with this, but I want to get more meat on the bone.

Let us take a simple scenario. If you want to put ladies’ changing rooms into a clubhouse, you will not get any change out of €100,000.

Mr. Burns addressed that earlier.

Exactly. We have approximately 2,000 clubs so the maths is there. I will let Mr. Burns in on the costing of it.

Last year, we gave €4.6 million to clubs to begin addressing that. The Deputy will be surprised at how many clubs have already addressed that. Any club now building new premises is addressing that. From having daughters who play, a lot of girls go togged out and come home togged out. They do not use the changing rooms at all. Maybe that is because the facilities are not there. When we start mentioning big figures it starts putting people off. When I mentioned the half a billion figure, it was not to put people off. It was to be realistic about saying if we want to do this right, and in a modern way that will allow girls feel the dignity they need to play sports at a high level or for their club, then that is what it will cost. The Deputy is right that the cost of infrastructure has spiralled, particularly for changing rooms, showers, toilets and all of those things.

I am conscious of time. Who will pay that amount?

We will continue to give the €12 million infrastructure grants to clubs and counties, but that is coming out of the €95 million we bring in. As an organisation we will not be able to do that, but we have been greatly helped by the large-scale infrastructure fund and sports capital. The Government has been good to us; it is important I mention that in the Oireachtas. We have been presenting and meeting Government with proposals to upgrade the immigrant investment programme, IIP, scheme to a philanthropic scheme. We feel we could bring in the type of money required through that. I have said it before and ask again that the committee help us with this to try to ensure we get access to those funds. We are close to achieving that and if we did, we feel we could do it without any Government funding.

I will again make the point that I made in my opening statement. Many of the costs we are talking about in terms of developing infrastructure and having the best infrastructure for all players regardless of gender will occur regardless of integration and are not tied to integration. They are part of the ambition we have for Gaelic games and for women, men and children in sports to have the best facilities our country can offer that will attract and keep them in sport. That will happen and should happen regardless of integration.

We have a couple of non-members present. What we normally do on this committee is go through the first round for all of the full members and then get to non-members. They are welcome but we have to get through our first round. A couple of people are left but are not here yet so I will work through my own questions.

Aontaím go hiomlán leis an ndeis órga atá romhainn i gcúrsaí Chumann Lúthchleas Gael. Cuirim fáilte roimh an iaruachtarán, Larry McCarthy, atá anseo. Bhí sé an-bhainteach leis seo. Tuigim go bhfuil suim aige sa chomhrá. Tá fáilte roimhe.

We have had a good discussion so far but there are a couple of things I want to clarify. The federation model was mooted a while ago and then went away. I do not know if there are whisperings. Can we put on record that is not the model that is going to happen?

When was that started?

This is going back a number of years. It was put to bed and I wondered if it was raising its head again. I think Mr. Molloy is nodding his head.

The federal model was talked about prior to the decision made at the 2024 announcement that we would have a single association and not a federation of three associations. The proposed model we brought to the roadshow was a single association and the revised version of that is a single association. There will be a new GAA that is a single association. That new single association GAA will have representative structures built into it to ensure that ladies' football and camogie are appropriately and adequately represented, but it will be a single new GAA national governing body across all codes.

That is brilliant and it is encouraging to have the opportunity to say that. Not everyone got to go to the roadshows and they would not have seen the organisation that was proposed, so that is positive. It turns out the glide path was Mr. Molloy's turn of phrase. Did he make that up? It is a good one, but how long is it? What are the stages of it? Are they going to publish the pillars of it? Can we - Gaelic games people - get sight of it? How long does it last?

The glide path got associated with me and then kept coming back to haunt me to an extent. There will be multiple glide paths across different areas. We are looking at the integration process and it is complicated. A number of different areas need to be worked at from a staffing and organisational perspective and from the perspective of clubs on the ground that decide they will not make any changes in advance of April 2027 but now have the capacity to be multiple codes. There may be another club up the road that also has one code and the capacity to be four codes, and another club up the road that has two codes and it has the capacity. They will be worked with and there will be a glide path where they will get to a point where they are more integrated in that community and some of the potential for difficulties will be removed. There will be a glide path with regard to the player charter. There is an extant male code player charter, which is running for another couple of years, that we recently signed with the GAA. That is an agreement in place between the GPA and the GAA. The ladies' football and camogie equivalent comes to an end at the end of this year and negotiations will be ongoing. They will continue to put in place a new version. There will be a process where we will get to a single cross-gender-----

The glide path refers to all the various elements.

All the different ones will glide through. Some of them will be fixed and defined and say what is happening there. Others will have reviews built in. If we look at the structures, none of our associations have ever operated on the basis that everything is immutable. Every year we go to congress and bring rules forward to change them. That will be the case as we go forward. We are likely to have a three- to five-year fixed-in review period, where we set this up and review it after three years to see what is and is not working and what needs to change.

Mr. Molloy mentioned congress and that is obviously an important part of how Gaelic games are governed. When he talks about October, the final report going to congress and then congress having to agree or disagree or whatever-----

There are three congresses.

Dr. McAleese said in her opening statement that the language is that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. What happens in an instance where it is not agreed or where maybe one congress-----

You told me you do not want to think about that.

I know, but we have to think about it because so much work has been put in. What happens if everything is not agreed and then nothing is agreed?

It will be agreed going there. Our finalised, tweaked and refined roadmap will be ready. It is being socialised with the management committees. It will then go to those congresses. We hope that it will be a compelling document. We have great faith in it. We have put our best into it. We have listened to everybody who had an insight and opinion. We have analysed and refined it. We have done our best with it and we believe passionately that it is the best way forward. Now-----

When you get to that point-----

-----if any of those congresses were to renege, then good luck to them in dealing with the public fallout. That is what I would say. I do not believe that will happen. I believe the congresses, across the three codes, will maintain faith with the congresses that gave us our mandate when Larry McCarthy was president. It was a strong mandate for integration and we have delivered and will deliver our best effort. It is not ours. We have put it together but it is the distilled wisdom that has come to us throughout the organisation.

I understand.

I do not want to contemplate that scenario. I have faith that it will be overwhelmingly endorsed.

Obviously, at this point all counties have three county boards. Have they all set up their own subcommittees for integration?

They have been asked to. They have not all done it yet. Mr. Ryan will tell us what numbers we are at.

They have not all done it. It is an ongoing process. They have all engaged. They have all been in communication.

I have good stories of some counties where it is working really well. For example, I think Roscommon has said they are working well, particularly on the camogie side, and are getting a good bit of work done at county level. Sometimes, when they are working well and are almost ahead of everybody else they are then looking to the national organisation for feedback on what the next steps might be. Is the delay because of the roadshows and feedback from the roadshows? Where are we at with some of the counties that have their subcommittees set up well and have reached a point where they cannot do any more unless they get guidance from Croke Park?

For example, when we were doing the roadshow in Cork, the Cork board informed us that it had been operating its integration committee for the preceding three years. It has not just been a trigger point from us doing roadshows to setting up integration committees. There are some that have been set up specifically as part of this process, but other counties have long-standing integration committees in place and have been operating on that basis.

As for the timeline that we outlined in February, we are still on that. The iarUachtarán, Dr. McAleese, made the point that we are exactly aligned with the timeline that we produced in February. We said that we were going to listen and take time to engage directly and through the committees. In some cases, there are committees in place, while in other places, we are talking to the county boards of the different associations, and we are taking all of that on board. We had said that we would socialise the revised versions in June, which is what we are going to do. We are following the path that we outlined. There is a lot of work still to be done in the coming months. However, we are aligned with what we indicated would be the timeline for hitting April 2027.

Thank you. I had better be straight with myself on the time. We will go to the non-members for questions. I call Deputy Cahill. I ask him to stick with the remit of the meeting, which is integration.

I welcome our guests and thank them for the submissions and presentations. The GAA president, Mr. Burns, mentioned the IIP, which is a very important programme. Mr. Burns mentioned that if it was open, it would probably save the Government a lot of money. The Kerry County Board has two applications in, one for the centre of excellence and one for Fitzgerald Stadium. I would like to see them progress. Although I am not a committee member, I would ask the committee to write to the Minister for justice with regard to supporting the scheme and calling for it to be reopened.

When RTÉ was before the committee, I raised the issue of a dedicated all-Irish TV sports channel. What are the views of the witnesses on that? The Irish love their sport. My colleague, Senator Kennelly, mentioned the paywall and people not being able to access the games. The people I worry most about are senior citizens in long-term care or in hospital. Many of those would have played for their clubs or their counties, held officer positions and so on. There is a great opening here. We should be putting pressure on for an Irish sports channel. The Irish are sports fanatics. We love our Gaelic football, hurling, handball, basketball, rugby, athletics and so on. If that could be supported, it would be great. I would love to see it. Our people should have access to watching our national sports.

Does Deputy Cahill have a question on integration?

I would just ask the witnesses for their views on the idea of an all-Irish sports channel.

We virtually have one, and it is called TG4. Two weekends ago, it showed 25 GAA games at Comórtas Peile na Gaeltachta, and there is everything else that it is showing.

With regard to the nursing homes, we issue 30,000 nursing home passes and 5,000 passes for people in hospital. Those people are covered free under GAAGO, so it is important to make that point.

All of these things cost money. If there was a solution that was workable, and if the Government was prepared to fund that, it is something that we would be open to looking at in the next round. We have a small window in which to generate revenue. We have to try to generate as much as we can so we can use that money to promote our games. That is really what this is about. It is about promoting our games. If you go to a game, you pay in. Free to air is not really free to air because people are also paying their television licence. Nothing like this is really free to air. The ard stiúrthóir may wish to come in on that.

We are tight on time.

I just have one last point. With the FIFA World Cup on at the moment, RTÉ is showing 104 games. Surely our population should have access to our national sport, especially at an important part of the championship.

I thank all of our guests who are here to be part of this important discussion. At the outset, I want to say that I love sport, and love GAA in particular. As somebody who, in my late 30s, went back to playing Gaelic football, I never really thought that would be possible because, like many women, I gave it up at a younger age. The reason I went back to playing sport is that there is a specific club in Cork, Na Laochra Aeracha. It is an LGBTI+-inclusive club. I went back to play for the sport, but also for the community. Unfortunately, at the moment, it is struggling to play in the league and form a team because of the way the 2010 boundary rules are being interpreted and applied to it. It has support from other LGFA clubs and from the men’s teams. It wants to be properly registered and it has insurance. Unfortunately, although it has been advocating for this for months, because some of the players live outside the boundary, it is not able to set up properly or play in the league.

From talking to a lot of players in the club that I am part of, I know they are very disappointed. They want to play. I believe this needs to be facilitated. I would ask the LGFA if this is something it will review. Different rules seem to be applied to Dublin and Belfast. We need a more standardised, transparent procedure. It cannot just be up to one person in an office to make an arbitrary decision in this regard. I would welcome a response to that. I ask the LGFA to engage with the club.

No club is being treated differently from any other club. There is no one person in an office making a decision in relation to this. We have been engaging with the club. This week alone, we have had multiple engagements. There are set rules as to how a club can set up. There are set catchment areas, which are the exact same in Dublin and Belfast as they are in Cork. We have had discussions in relation to that. Nobody has any issue at all with the club setting up, but there have to be rules and regulations as to how a club can set up to be fair to every club across the country, and to ensure the sustainable development of all clubs. There is no issue with the club setting up. We are working with the club to try to get that over the line, but there have to be rules.

Something that we are extremely proud of is how inclusive all of our clubs are. All of our clubs have members from across the LGBT community. It is very important that all of our clubs are inclusive, and not just stand-alone clubs. In saying that, we have stand-alone clubs that we are very proud of, and we will continue to work with this one. However, we have to abide by the rules, the same as for every other club.

Will the LGFA commit to reviewing the 2010 boundary application rules as part of that? This stand-alone club is important. It is stand-alone for a reason in terms of inclusivity. That would be important as part of the wider integration of national policies and how they are applied.

All clubs and counties can bring rules to congress for change. We are discussing this with the club. There is nobody stopping these girls from playing in other clubs. Yes, they want to play with this club, but there are clubs for them. The line that there is no club for them is not true.

There are people like me. I would not have gone back to play sport if that club did not exist. I know there are fellow players-----

That is why all clubs being inclusive is very important.

I welcome the witnesses. My apologies for being late, but I was at another event in the city. I was a member of the ard chomhairle in Croke Park a number of years ago, so I want to put that on the record.

With regard to the one club model and integration, it is very important that we have the clubs there. We saw the demographic report that was published some months back. We had members in with the housing committee, which I chair, identifying the demographic change and population change. In the west of Ireland, there is a situation where clubs are struggling with numbers, but we have the clubs, facilities, schools and community centres. That compares with clubs in urban areas that have 4,000 or 5,000 members but are struggling with facilities and have no green fields while trying to put out ten or 15 teams.

Ironically we won the Lory Meagher cup a couple of weeks ago and it is important to put that on the record. The last time we did so was in 2014 and I was chair of the hurling board at the time. That morning we went to the Na Fianna grounds ahead of the game for a puck around. I was chatting to a member of the club who said the under eights were out - only the under eights and not the under sevens - and there were 400 or 500 kids there. This is a struggle for clubs in urban areas. When we are looking at integration, we have to protect the clubs we have. This is important. Will the witnesses comment on that?

With regard to integration, there is the cost of the facilities that need to be upgraded. I am still involved in my club and when we built them, we built all the facilities for men. Now we have a fantastic ladies club, which started seven or eight years ago and has built up to junior level. We have a rounders club, which is the only one in the county. It will take a significant investment for us to put in all of the additional facilities, including changing facilities, and to adapt what we have. We have the sports capital programme in different guises. Another round will be announced soon but we need more. I have probably mentioned to Mr. Burns that I believe a form of the immigrant investment programme - or some guise of it and not as it was - needs to be brought back in and supported by the State so we can see significant multimillion euro funding that is available internationally put into the facilities our clubs need to upgrade.

We covered the question of demographics with a couple of other committee members. It is very important and it poses real challenges for each of the three constituent organisations in their own right today before we even look at integration. We are doing our best to address these. There are some things that we can and will do. We are looking at our own playing rules to facilitate smaller sided games or to facilitate the movement of players across clubs. We are looking at the structures of competitions. Relevant to the Deputy's comment on facilities, we need to change, and we are open to changing, the traditional way that Gaelic games organisations look at property ownership. We are open to coming at things from a completely different angle.

I would like to add a little note of caution in terms of the characterisation of demographics as being an existential threat. It is a real problem and a real difficulty but it is a good problem to have. Between the three of organisations, we have never had more clubs playing Gaelic games, we have never had more players and we have never had more children playing Gaelic games of all codes. We are in a very good position to meet the challenges ahead of us. I would not like the committee or any of our members to be dispirited about these challenges. This is what the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association do; we identify challenges and we meet them head-on and we will meet this one. What we do need is a little bit of help from the committee. There are things we cannot change. We can influence but we cannot change public policy and there are certain things we would be very grateful for. There are a lot of influential people in this room and we would be very grateful for their help in advocacy on public policy to help us with some of the challenges that the Deputy spoke about.

Having grown up in Longford, I have to put on the record my delight with the Lory Meagher cup. I was there to watch it and it was fantastic. Rathcline is the club I was in when growing up in Lanesborough. A small amount of hurling and camogie at nursery level are starting there. The facilities provide for a very active female cohort who play football and we see this in places. Mr. Burns referenced earlier that a lot of work has been done to upgrade facilities. One of the comments made before to me when I was having a conversation on the exact point the Deputy has made was that young lads these days are just as particular as the young women with regard to facilities. In some cases, the facilities need to be upgraded not because women are playing, but because they are not fit for purpose for the modern era in terms of what men, women, boys and girls demand in facilities.

I make the point, and I made it a few times earlier, that these are challenges whether we integrate as organisations. In Rathcline, we have a very strong LGFA operating. Whether we combine or stay as two separate clubs, we still need better facilities, we still need further capital investment and we still need to add further money to it. They have done a big job there, as have clubs throughout the country, and more is needed. This is where, as the ard stiúrthóirthe of the GAA referenced, the committee's advocacy can help us to look at public policy and the area of releasing more capital. It is a very positive challenge that so many people are looking to play our game that we need to expand the facilities.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and it is great to have Mr. Burns and Ms McAleese here. My son Liam Neville and Connor Horan are club members and I mention them to reference the first level of the integration challenge we have in the GAA in County Kildare because they play Gaelic football and hurling. They treat them equally as sports. When I grew up in north Kildare, this was not necessarily the case, no more than in Longford. This is something we have done. I am lucky enough to come from Leixlip GAA club which, in my view, and others might have a different opinion, there was never any difference between the roles and opportunities afforded to girls and boys. Going back to when I was in primary school, there was equal billing on pitches. It was always the way it was and we always had it. It was only when I got older that I realised it was an issue in other clubs. I never thought before as to why the girl's county final was not on the same pitch or why it was on in Kilcullen at the same time as the men's quarter-finals. What do the LGFA and the Camogie Association see as the main challenges from an integration perspective? I am conscious of time and I ask for even one or two points on this.

We spoke earlier about some of the challenges that might be there. The challenges will not be as big as long as we have the representation of what we are presenting correct which, in fairness, all three bodies have worked very hard on over the past number of weeks.

Is there a risk of silos in the organisational structure? This is always my fear when groups are brought together. It is that someone is used to being the chair of this or the president of that and they do not want to give up that position.

When speaking about the challenges earlier, we said there are probably fears on all sides and not only in ladies football and camogie in this regard. Change brings this challenge with it. There are brilliant people in all three associations and this is something people have to realise. Ladies football and camogie are not coming with nothing to the table. We are coming with brilliant people and brilliant sports. Those people can only enhance what is there in the new GAA. If we get the best out of all three associations, we will have a much better GAA.

This is like the club model that I have so it goes without saying. What is the main challenge the GAA has? Is there anything with which we can specifically assist? Is there anything on this side that we can help with?

Irrespective of the characteristics of the three constituent organisations, what we are talking about here is bringing together three of the largest five sporting organisations in the country and they all have their own identity, traditions and way of doing things. What reassures me is that the three of us today have far more in common than what is different. In any amalgamation of three different enterprises, there are going to be difficulties. Mr. Molloy set it out very well when he spoke about the idea of a glide path. There are things we will get right first time, there are things that will take two or three goes and there are things that I have no doubt even in three, four or five years we will still be talking about. Speaking on the part of the GAA, this is the picture in the GAA today. Nothing is ever absolutely 100% right and it is just a question of getting better as we go along. For us, the challenges are going to be the same even if we were to exist as an independent organisation, and these are more people playing, more participation, better facilities, better welfare for our players and more profile for our games.

We will do that better combined than as three independent organisations.

We will have a quick second round of two minutes each. I do not know that we have time for three minutes each, given it is 2.20 p.m. and we have to go into private session as well.

I will not go into integration too much. I will talk primarily about the all-Ireland senior hurling championship and the way it is structured. I wish the best of luck to Kilkenny in the camogie and to the LGFA. Those championships are running brilliantly. However, specifically in hurling this year, by the end of May, before the leaving certificate exams even started, Kilkenny which has won 36 all-Irelands, Tipperary which has won 29, Wexford, which has won six and Waterford, which has won two - the south east of Ireland alone has won 77 of 140-something all-Irelands - were all out of the championship. That cannot be healthy for the game long term. Is the potential of the all-Ireland senior hurling championship being maximised?

Football is flying. It is getting huge exposure and loads of the teams are still involved in the middle of the summer. I understand there is a fixtures challenge. I am not saying we should go back to the days of the past because club players deserve certainty and protection. I have no issue with that at all. Are we at a stage where we might need to have a look at it to make sure more intercounty teams play longer into the summer so younger people can see their heroes and stars and not be in a situation where, before they get to put on their summer clothes, their teams are out of the championship?

The challenge is to raise the standard so more teams are participating in the championship rather than look at the structure of the championship.

To be fair, the standard has never been as high, while from a visibility perspective, it has never been as low at this time of year.

Eleven teams are participating in the Liam McCarthy Cup. That is the issue. As long as the top tier or marquee championship only has 11 teams in it, there will be fewer games than there are in football. Off the top of my head, I reckon 25 games were played to get to the stage the Deputy is talking about so it is not a question that we are not making the most of the teams and players that are there today. It is a question of augmenting it and getting more teams up to the standard to be able to participate meaningfully in the Liam McCarthy Cup. That is not something we can fix today or tomorrow. However, it is very much on the agenda and a strategic imperative for the association.

I will make some supplementary points relating to the conversation we were having on the free to air broadcasting. I completely accept what Mr. Burns said about members being happy with the endeavours the GAA is making with nursing homes, broadband packages and so on. However, I ask him to take away a few points from this. Not all elderly people who like to watch GAA are in nursing homes nor they do have broadband or smartphones. There is a cohort of people who are sufficiently eliminated and stuck in that regard. Every sport wants to be a participation sport and does not want people to watch on television; it wants people to go to matches. However, facilities have capacity issues. For example, there were 8,000 tickets for the Louth match last Sunday, but 15,000 tickets could have been sold if the venue had been able to cope with that crowd. Not everyone got a ticket, as I did not, so there are some difficulties and constraints.

When Mr. Burns spoke about the revenue stream - the amount it brings in for integration - it prompted me to wonder how far integration goes. The aim is greater alignment of policies, systems and governance. Does it go down to the nitty-gritty of uniforms, team jerseys and sponsors? I do not know whether it does or what the steering group's plans are for that, but if it does, is there a potential impact on revenue? For example, if the same jersey is used for hurling and football, will revenue be lost on merchandise and, potentially, if a county gets a uniform sponsor across the county?

That is a good question. Longford had taken over the mentions a moment ago, but now Louth is level again. It is now up to Longford to reach out again. Kilkenny is out of the championship.

It is a good point. The area of commercial sponsorship and broadcasting is separate. It usually finds its own level. For example, some counties have the same sponsor across all three codes. We have the same sponsor for clubs - AIB is the sponsor - the same all-star night and everything. In other areas, it is different. That will be an interesting part of it because both the other codes have loyal sponsors and very good ones. We would not be loathe to jump into that and say they all have to come in under our umbrella. The GAA negotiates the sponsorship for camogie. We have a good relationship. We do not do it for the LGFA. It does its own.

Clubs will always find their own level and we do not interfere with them getting sponsors. That will be one of the biggest dividends for us as a fully integrated organisation. We will be unstoppable in our commercial capability.

It is also important to say there is a realm of autonomy and subsidiarity that should be left to the clubs. People from on high interfere with club colours at their peril. We have discussed this on many occasions and the firm belief is that there is a realm of autonomy and subsidiarity that must be respected.

We are going back to Longford to Deputy Carrigy.

In the previous meeting, I made the point about there being no sense in clubs charging camogie or LGFA clubs. Can we say that no club is charging for the use of facilities?

We shall say that.

Mr. Ryan mentioned policy. The number one issue is infrastructure, but what policy changes does he think we need? As he said, members present are involved on different Oireachtas committees. What priority policy changes could the Government make?

As the uachtarán mentioned specifically, our natural disposition is to be self-sufficient and that is part of the imperative behind GAA+ as well. We try to make our own way. The angle we have taken in our discussions with the Government up to now is to illustrate a way we can deliver that, that we can bring in the funding and it will not be a cost to the Exchequer. We think we have a scheme that can do part of that. Advocacy from the group here to support that as a venture would be appreciated.

When I talked about other issues of public policy, I was talking about the idea we talked about earlier where a significant proportion - up to 50% - of the population of the island of Ireland lives in a corridor on 50 km of the east coast. That poses difficulties broader than sport, GAA or Gaelic games participation, but it also has a real impact on us. That is another area of public policy where the Government can make a significant difference for us.

We have advocated in the Houses and it will be introduced shortly, for the rural planning guidelines to allow more planning permission, particularly in rural areas, and changes to the packaged treatment plants to allow smaller towns and villages to get houses built. They are some of the policy changes already.

Yes, planning policy.

The broadcasting issue comes up every year. It is important that more sport and games are being broadcast now free to air. This applies to all sporting codes. I am conscious when we meet communities of Irish people and non-Irish people around the world of how they are able to access the games, where they have to pay a subscription. It is a model we have to accept.

Mr. Burns made the point about the World Cup. I remember during the previous term, as Mr. Ryan will, that we had the GAA, the FAI and IRFU before the committee. I appreciate it is commercially sensitive, but all three codes at the time said that about 20% of revenue is tied to broadcasting rights.

To commercial undertakings, not necessarily broadcasting.

Yes, so it is important. We have to live in the real world when we look at how games get broadcast. We have to acknowledge that far more games are now available. There was a time when only the all-Ireland final and maybe a semi-final would be shown and it was only the men's game. We just have to be more realistic about that.

We focus very much on the national issue, but the game is now important internationally and our national games are being played globally.

I am also very conscious that the first ever women’s Aussie Rules game between Ireland and Australia will be played this summer. Do any of the witnesses wish to comment on the international dimension of the codes coming together?

When I was at the Asian Games last year, along with Ms Murray and Mr. Molloy, more females were playing than males in those games. It was incredible. I recommend that everybody have it on their bucket list to go there and see it at some stage.

We never cease to be amazed when we go to the World Games, which are coming to Waterford in July this year. It is going to be an incredible spectacle, with 3,000 people taking over Waterford for that week. It will be an incredible week. Our previous president, Mr. Larry McCarthy, who has just left, was from World GAA as well. He was from New York. I thought it was a great achievement for our association to recognise the role of World GAA. I thank the Deputy very much for mentioning this point.

I will add that I was at the European Gaelic games finals in Rome. To echo the point made by Mr. Burns, the number of women involved was quite extraordinary. What was even more extraordinary was the number of non-Irish people who have joined Gaelic clubs. Why have they done this? It was because of a sense of belonging and welcome. That is part of our ethos. It is embedded in the games and something to be truly proud of.

I will recount the image that comes to me that I would like to leave in the minds of the members of the committee. We have talked about the games at all these levels, and we are in the middle of championships. We are maybe mithered with games and arguments over games, and we have been entertained royally. Here is something, though, that comes to me, an image from last year from my own home village of Rostrevor, which had a little Gaelic games festival for all. Out on the pitch was a young blind, quadriplegic man in a wheelchair, aged 12. The ball comes to him and his face lights up like a Christmas tree. Why was that? It was because he belongs. He is not excluded.

Everything about Gaelic games is summed up in that image, including the community, culture, extensive heroism and generosity. It is something you do not get in all sports. You certainly are not going to get it in a lot of professional sports, but it is something so rich in the GAA. It is the leverage of pure, spontaneous goodness. It is not possible to put a price on it and we should not even attempt to put a price on it. I am just saying that we have never been a people held back by fears and we should not be with our integration process. We are a people propelled by vision and generosity and an impulse for inclusion.

I have some brief questions. One concerns membership fees. Is there going to be a move towards standardising them? Different clubs in Dublin charge a lot more for membership. It is not just membership across the clubs but membership in general. It is sometimes a discouragement for parents to-----

I will take this question. I feel that membership is very easy. In our club, it is membership in and fees to the county board out. A should equal B. I disagree with using the idea of membership as a tool for fundraising. It should not be one. We can fundraise in a thousand other ways in the GAA. Membership should be affordable for everyone who wants to play our games and should never be prohibitive. I fully agree with the Deputy on this point.

This is something we have discussed at length.

Good.

We do, indeed, have a very coherent plan on this for one membership fee down the line.

My other question concerns vetting. At the moment, if I want to help out in the club, which has different codes, there is vetting for one code and vetting for another code. In future, if I apply for vetting, will it be for the club in general or will it still be based on codes?

The one vetting will do across all our codes.

Grand. I thank Ms Savage. My last question concerns something we have a difficulty with in all organisations. We have a difficulty in getting people to be on boards or to play management roles because they feel it is more onerous or feel there is a greater responsibility. Is that true in the GAA as well as a whole across all the codes?

It is a challenge, but it is one we are aware of. President McAleese referred to the club forum we had earlier in the year, and this topic very much came to the fore in it. We have very definite plans to acknowledge, incentivise, train and make the cohort of volunteers feel very central to the future we will have as a new organisation. We are very aware of this aspect.

We now have leadership programmes to support more females putting their hands up for those positions too.

There are votes in the Dáil now that the Deputies in the room have to attend. We are nearly finished. We have a couple of Senators who are going to stay. Does Senator Kennelly want to come back in for two minutes?

We are all here to help to promote and save the games in future. I refer to the unified organisation. Mr. Burns referred to renegotiating the TV rights. To ensure we are promoting our games to men and women, will the GAA commit during the TV rights negotiations next year to prioritising the showing of all intercounty games, whether it is free-to-air or on other platforms? I would like to be able to take something back to the public on this issue.

I will take that question first. To be honest, the answer is "No", I will not. I will tell the Senator why.

Mr. Burns will not give any commitment.

No. I am against every game being shown, whether it is via streaming or free to air. We have to ask ourselves how much is enough? After what point does the GAA, or Gaelic Games, on TV become wallpaper? There have to be some games not shown. We never see a Premier League game on television on Saturday at 3 p.m. because it knows that is the time when its amateur teams are playing and it wants people to go and watch a game at 3 p.m. on a Saturday.

We are the same. We are about participation first. We want people playing. The second thing we want people to do is to get up and go and watch a match. The third thing, then, is to watch it on the television. The people watching a match on the television pay in the same way as the people who go to the match to watch it. As I said, there are 300 games free-to-air. I cannot, however, give a guarantee at all, and nor would I agree with the suggestion that every single game should be on television. It is not a good model and I would not agree with it. Other people might disagree with me on this point, but that is my view.

I will just add one. A lot of discussion today has been on the GAA’s games going free-to-air. For every game that goes on TV, it is hard enough to get slots for female games as it is. We have to be cautious. This is about the whole of Gaelic games. The opening statement today was about how we can get more visibility and everything for females. I get that there is a lot of talk about putting on all the male games, but for every male game that goes on, that means there is one less slot where we can show our female games. It is about getting the balance right. Without having the visibility of female games, we will not get role models and everything else. Everything is part of this discussion.

Another important point is that TG4 will sometimes ask to show a county final and be politely told by the county board that it does not want the channel to show the final because that will affect the attendance and the county board wants to stream the final itself for its own revenue stream. I am not against that happening. I understand why counties would do that. It can be frustrating for our broadcasters, who have already negotiated, to have to negotiate a second time. We also have to be mindful, though, that our counties, including the Senator's own county, see streaming as a method of potential revenue generation too. I hope I have answered that question.

I thank all the witnesses for a very informative and engaging discussion. I want to come back to my original question in terms of inclusivity. What President McAleese said was important in respect of it being impossible to put a price on the feeling of belonging and inclusivity in relation to sport. Sport is the unifying thing in this country, regardless of political party or persuasion. The same should apply regardless of background.

In relation to the issue I raised about the boundaries being applied, I referred to the club I am a part of, Na Laochra Aeracha. I want to give the witnesses an opportunity to make a commitment to engage further in this regard and to review it. We do need rules across the board, but rules should be there to rule people in as much as we can as opposed to ruling people out. I am just very conscious that women do drop out of sport. We know this. Women from more marginalised groups are again more likely to drop out of sport, or anyone from marginalised groups. We should be trying to keep them in sports and encouraging them to get back into it. If that involves being able to fully register and play games, then that is important. I am not trying to be combative here, but I genuinely hope we can find a resolution in relation to this issue.

It would be so meaningful for players and clubs if it could be applied across the board. Why was it able to occur in Dublin and Belfast for certain clubs but not in Cork, for example? Perhaps the president would like to make a comment on it.

I think I have already answered this one, in that Dublin and Belfast are not treated differently. They are living in the catchment area that is there. This is suitable for a discussion about integration. I have already said that we are engaging with the club. I am more than proud of how inclusive all of our clubs are. The number of people from the LGBT community playing our game is something I take great pride in. Engaging with clubs and trying to help them is something we do as part of our day-to-day work. Getting more girls involved and retaining them has been my bread and butter for the past 18 years and that will not change either.

A specific boundary review.

I thank the Senator. Everyone has gone so I will wrap up. I have a couple of questions I want to ask in relation to the voice of players. We have not actually talked about that much yet, if at all. In terms of the new organisation, will players have any role or voice in decision making on things like welfare, player development and fixtures clashes? Will they have an official voice in the new organisation?

They do today, as the Leas-Chathaoirleach knows. When we were here in December, one of the specific pieces of feedback we had from the committee was a desire to see the GPA involved in some of the formative thinking around this. We took that on board and I am pleased that when we are looking at the issues of charters and so on and how we might align those, the GPA has been part of that discussion and been very helpful. I envisage that players will have a voice. It is only right and proper that they would have, but whatever shape or form that takes, I do not know yet because as the committee will appreciate, we are still in the formative stage of defining all of those-----

It is good that the commitment is there.

-----but the principle is sound.

Yes. Is there any movement on the player charter that was mentioned as to what it might look like or cost? Is the association far down the road yet?

We have done a serious amount of work on that. We have arrived at what we think is a reasonable, common base level of support that should be available to all players. We have arrived at what we think is the approximate cost of it. If the committee does not mind, it is very important that we would share that information with our own internal stakeholders first-----

That is understood.

-----and get their buy-in when we explain it to them, so I will not disclose that here today. I want to reassure the committee that this work has been done. The next challenge for us will be to arrive at how we meet that. We have talked an awful lot today about the cost of facilities and things like that. There is a cost to the ongoing operations of the new organisation as well and that will be one of them. The committee will be hearing a lot about that in the near future.

I have one question on the organisational structure. It was mentioned that it definitely will not be a federation and there will be a new organisational structure and what that will look like. When will the grassroots members or just general Gaelic games people see the new organisational structure? It might have been presented at road shows but, again, not everyone would have been at those, so I would like to get sight of that.

We went through the first iteration of it over the past two or three months with people around the country and online and so on.

That is great.

I think Ms Savage might have mentioned that part of what we are doing now is taking on board the feedback from that and making some minor adjustments.

To go back again.

We have a second version of that ready to go. Dr. McAleese mentioned that it goes back to the respective management committees and central council and so on over the next couple of weeks. Thereafter we will share that broadly again, so that is the process.

It will be in advance of October. That is very good. I thank all the witnesses very much for their engagement. We really appreciate it and it is really encouraging. An awful lot of work is being done. The witnesses are not obliged to be here so it is wonderful that they are to share the information and updates. If they can bring people with them on the journey, they will help with its implementation, particularly those county boards that are working to establish integration subcommittees. The more they know, the more they will be able to help implement it. Communication is one of the big elements of this.

We will go into private session now.