Apologies have been received from Senators Malcolm Noonan and Rónán Mullen. Today's meeting has been convened for the committee's engagement on spaces and infrastructure for artists. From the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, I welcome Ms. Suzanne Sheehan, assistant principal officer and Ms. Tracy Dineen, assistant principal officer. From the Arts Council, I welcome Ms. Stephanie O'Callaghan, creative arts director. From the County and City Management Association, I welcome Mr. Coilín O’Reilly, chair of the rural, community, culture and heritage committee. From the National Campaign for the Arts, I welcome Ms Maria Fleming, chair, and Mr. Peter Power, an NCFA committee member. From Praxis, the Artists Union of Ireland, I welcome Mr. Robbie Kitt, chairperson. They are all very welcome. I thank them for making the time.

The format of this meeting is such that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to three minutes. However, we have, as a committee, decided today to take the statements as read because there are so many statements. Is that agreed? Agreed. We may publish the opening statements on our website as well. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we move to today's discussion, I wish to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

As we have agreed to take the statements provided as read, we will now proceed to questions and answers with members. They have approximately seven minutes each. The first member is Deputy Ó Snodaigh.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as a bheith anseo linn inniu. Tá sé go hiontach go bhfuilimid ag plé na ceiste seo. Arts space is something that is dear to me and has been for years. I remember my mother being in the Independent Artists and, at the time, having the studios on what was then unfashionable Mount Street. Think of how the world has changed in my lifetime in some ways. Many other artists would have been in her company trying to eke out a space somewhere in a semi-derelict or vacant building - in some ways, times have not changed.

The reason I asked for this item to be on the agenda because we have had some discussions on the arts and everything else over recent times, especially some of the changes that happened in the basic income for artists. One of the issues that keeps coming up is the lack of practice space for musicians, creative space, dirty space or whatever they call it for artists to practice. The closure of The Complex before Christmas brought it home again in this city that there is more and more possibility of artists losing the space they have. My question is in relation to how people perceive the Minister's arts capital grant. Will it be enough to address the demand that is out there? Each organisation will be aware of different demands. Could they set out exactly what the demand is?

I thank the Deputy. I am representing the National Campaign for the Arts. I welcome having this opportunity to address what is becoming a vital issue for the sector.

The spaces that artists practise in are becoming practically non-existent. There was an interesting presentation by the artist Molly O'Cathain at the recent performing arts forum conference in Belfast. I ask that the committee seek out and watch that presentation because it looked not only at the lack of spaces but also at what we have come to accept as our spaces, including spaces with dampness. My office has no windows. We, in the arts, accept conditions that no other sector would accept in terms of the spaces that we have.

In relation to the Deputy's question on whether the Minister's addressing of cultural spaces is enough, no, it is not enough, but we welcome it. We would like to see more. One of the things that the closure of The Complex has shown us is that the arts sector cannot compete in the general market. We cannot compete with other sectors on property prices. We cannot pay those rents, rates or overheads. That is why the NCFA is proposing something similar to Dublin City Council's 5% planning scheme.

Spaces for the arts are only going to come about if somebody ring-fences areas that are for arts participation and lowers rents and rates to make it affordable for artists to be there. It is vital for all our communities that we have the arts present, but the only way they will have that is if people work with us to provide that. We are not going to be able to compete for those spaces on the open market. We deserve windows, light and damp-free spaces to practise our art forums.

I cannot agree more with Ms Fleming's words, particularly around the non-conducive nature of the private market for the provision of art spaces. A lot of arts organisations would often describe the conditions they encounter as being almost hostile to the way in which they operate.

I agree that the cultural capital and artist workspace schemes are welcome, but it would be amazing to see the same type of ambition that was contributed towards the sports capital funding scheme being brought over to these cultural grant schemes. I also agree on the percent for the arts proposal. That is an important feature too.

We should also consider the stock that the State already has in terms of the buildings that are owned by State bodies. There are some exceptional examples of State and public-owned infrastructure being used for culture and the arts. One example I gave in my opening statement was Flux studios on Chatham Row, which is a building owned by Dublin City Council. It was sitting vacant for five years and is now home to 60 artists who have affordable artist spaces. It also has a performance and gallery space. It is used in a multi-functional way, a way that we always talk about in theory, but it is actually happening right in the centre of Dublin. It is not just a Dublin thing. The NCF in Ballina is an amazing organisation and cultural co-operative. It has a lease on a vacant retail unit in the town centre in Ballina and, similarly, it is using it as a performance and social space for the arts community there. There is a lot of potential for the stock of public infrastructure owned by public and State bodies to be made available to arts communities.

On behalf of the County and City Management Association, we would welcome any grant scheme that assists us to work with artists. I would also welcome details on how it would work. Capital funding is great but very often, and this includes sports capital projects, it is in the area of revenue that things fall down. People get the space and then they have to jump in and pay electricity, insurance and everything else.

I do not think that the arts will ever compete on the open market because of the levels of income. I know there was a previous Arts Council scheme because I was at the opening of studios in Artane that Dublin City Council did. We also have two applications in from Carlow, which will create spaces. In fairness to the artists, they do not demand a huge amount, so it is important that we invest and get them up and running. The CCMA would welcome that scheme.

In terms of the Department's current capital commitments to artists workspaces, and much of it has been referenced already, we have the current artists workspace scheme. This is a €6 million commitment where we invite local authorities to bring forward projects for artists workspaces. That fund is in place and, to date, €1.25 million has been drawn down by six local authorities for seven projects. There are some other applications for other projects, and we are assessing them.

In conjunction with Dublin City Council, we have the space to create programme. That is a €3 million investment by the Department, and we continue to work with Dublin City Council in the roll-out of that project. We also have the cultural capital scheme, which was already mentioned.

We welcome the scheme. It is a positive start. In our opening address, we said that the current spending needs to be underpinned by capital investment, so this is welcome. We obviously need to go much further. Deputy Ó Snodaigh mentioned Mount Street. We carried out research in 2022 which showed that half of the buildings were from pre-1919. That is before independence and before the First Dáil, so it is a building stock that needs attention. This is, however, a good start, and we welcome it.

I thank the witnesses for being here. I will stick with the pilot arts capital grant scheme and tease out a bit further what the witnesses see that looking like. Mr. Kitt alluded to it potentially needing to be similar to the large-scale sports infrastructure fund.

The reason I am asking is that I come from Drogheda, the largest town in the country. It is steeped in heritage, culture and arts, and we are proud of that. We are particularly proud of our brass bands. We have two championship brass bands that have been around for a long time and continue to evolve and succeed in all avenues. In recent years, the Drogheda Brass Band worked hard to secure a new premises that is fit for purpose. While the Lourdes Brass Band owns it own premises, it has been left behind. The premises is down a back lane. There is no parking, so children cannot be dropped off or picked up at the door. While the band does its best, it cannot upgrade the building to a sufficient standard. The walls are thick. When it put in some CCTV recently, it cost an exorbitant amount of money because the thick walls and pillars had to be drilled through.

The building is four storeys high. The only level that is actually viable for use at the moment is the fourth floor. Even if the band had the money to do it, there is no place for a lift to go in. It has elderly members. It cannot facilitate people with disabilities, and the premises is choking its progress. I have been in dialogue with Louth County Council, and members of the brass band and I met with it in recent months. Trying to find a pathway forward is difficult. The band got the premises valued. However, for the premises to be sold on the open market and the band to then buy land and build would not cut the mustard in terms of what it needs.

According to the witnesses' understanding of the pilot scheme, will it be sufficient to help organisations like the Lourdes Brass Band? I am sure there are hundreds, if not thousands, of similar organisations.

Mr. O'Reilly from the CCMA referred to the role of local authorities. Are local authorities fulfilling their obligations when it comes to funding the arts or do additional funding streams need to be piloted along with this capital grant scheme to help local authorities deliver for the arts, particularly when it comes to capital infrastructure? I am sorry for all of that; I am just throwing it out there. I will start with CCMA representative and then anyone else who wants to come in afterwards.

That is fine. There were about 25 questions there.

At least.

The first thing is that spaces have to be dedicated. When I was in Dublin City Council I was involved with Vanessa Fielding in The Complex. That was an in-between use, and what always ends up happening with an in-between use is that artists get their hands on it and they then have to fight to try to keep it. We have to look at developing dedicated spaces for artists.

Regarding historical buildings, whether it is for housing, community use, the arts or anything else, they will cost twice as much, so it has to be the right building.

In my county there is a former fire station in Tullow that we have submitted as a project to become an artists space. We also have a cottage in St. Mullins which we have submitted to become an artists space. It has to be the right building. It cannot just be any building.

The other point is that we are great in Ireland for wanting our own space that we can put a lock and key on and not let somebody else in. There are advantages and disadvantages to that. Like the example of the band, we have an arts centre in Carlow that needs to welcome in as many people as possible. It may not be a dedicated space for the band, but you could get five or six to come together and provide a multi-use space for somebody who uses it from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. on a Monday and somebody else has it at 8 o'clock on a Tuesday evening.

I do not mean to interrupt as I am interested to hear what Mr. O'Reilly has to say. This is something we have explored with the local authority to see if the new community hub being developed in Drogheda had potential for amalgamating over the coming few years. It poses difficulties. A brass band might have 50 members. There are a lot of instruments. There are beginner, intermediate and senior levels. They all have band practice on different evenings in the week and some at weekends. You might need a space four, five, if not six times a week. Generally, band members like to leave their stands up. They have accompanying equipment and stuff like that, so they do not want to bring everything up and take it all back down every evening when they come in and out of practice. Shared space in that regard, particularly for a brass band, poses challenges. It is not something they are immune to, or they are not exploring, but it does come with barriers.

I accept that. It is like asking GAA clubs to amalgamate. It is never going to happen. We also have to know that if we are using public funds, these spaces have to be as multi-use as possible. That could be solved by storage or whatever else if there is a multitude of groups.

The arts is a broad church. I am not the expert in the room. There are lots of people more qualified than I am, but the arts can be everything from a dance artist in a small studio space up to a brass band. We have to be careful in trying to accommodate all of that. The small space for the artists in practice works, and you then have your arts centres. If there are specific issues with groups, they can come together as much as possible. I accept the Deputy's point. I have been there 100 times with different sports and community groups trying to get them to share. It can be complex, but when it works it works well.

Yes, it is just getting to that point.

The diversity of needs in the arts is definitely extensive. It is a challenge for sure. It is important to say we have a critical lack of arts space across the board. While I understand the specific needs of different arts communities, we are at a point where we have to keep in mind the existential situation in which we find ourselves.

To come back to the scheme, there is definitely a diverse range of needs among arts communities but there are some things that cut across many different communities. One of them is the precarious nature of a lot of these practices. The Department has been good at this, so this is not a critique, but in the formulation of these schemes it is important to take those factors into consideration. For example, I know there were challenges accessing the cultural capital scheme with regard to the length of people's leases. A lot of arts spaces are operating on precarious and short leases. We need to look at these kinds of schemes as a way to increase the capacity of buildings because they sometimes have to relate to historical use and things like that, but that use can itself be limited. That can be resolved through consultation with the Department, which I know it is open to. There are also good templates in the Department for that. The night-time economy units have done a great amount of work activating cultural spaces at night. It shows that a task force with cross-sectoral input from many stakeholders can achieve a lot and bridge a lot of these gaps and needs between different arts communities.

I thank all of the witnesses for their testimony and the work they do. When we go to build communities, we cannot just talk about building housing. We have to talk about building the sporting community and the cultural infrastructure that make the places we live so vibrant. This is not just about providing spaces for artists. It is about the contribution that artists, musicians, dancers and choreographers make to the communities in which we live. I am glad this committee has been strong on the development of the arts capital scheme. I ask the Department to outline where we are with that scheme. We need to have the sports capital scheme and an arts capital scheme on an almost level footing. Similarly, we have the large-scale sport infrastructure fund and there should be something similar for our cultural spaces. I divorce that from the national cultural institutions, which need funding, but they cannot be seen to be competing or taking away from spaces. The committee should make a recommendation that we move in that direction. We have been strong on that. Will the Department update us on the status of the new capital scheme?

We are still awaiting sanction from the Department of public expenditure and reform, but we anticipate the scheme will be in place shortly. The scheme is a key priority for the Minister, and I am aware of the significant support this committee has given it. We are at the final stages of the guidelines.

Ms Sheehan will appreciate that I can foresee a torrent of interest. I could spend the €6 million in my constituency alone.

I know the Minister has already noted that it is a pilot scheme. The 2026 budget allocation is €6 million but we will using it to ascertain the level of demand and need. It is the Minister's hope that this will be the starting point for something more akin to the-----

Is there any indication of the number of projects it is anticipated might be funded from €6 million? That is not a huge sum for a capital budget.

It is difficult to say at this point but there will be different levels of funding. The scheme will also be open to community and voluntary groups. It is expected that we will use this to inform policy decisions going forward.

To think about recommendations from this committee on the policy side, my view has always been that when we had the per cent for art scheme under major infrastructure projects that it would be used. We need to look at adapting our planning legislation. There is a requirement in respect of large-scale infrastructure projects or significant volumes of housing, rightly, to make provision for childcare facilities and sporting and recreation facilities. What can we do, or what changes would the CCMA like to see us make within existing planning legislation, to ensure that within communities? I might also ask others to come in on that.

I put a caveat and a warning at the end of this. Dublin city has its 5% for art in all projects. That is welcome. In smaller local authorities, if this is put onto the developer or homeowner, we will have viability issues from a housing delivery perspective. That is the advantage. I wear all the hats in the local authority. We already have viability issues delivering so when it comes to imposing a 5% for arts scheme on a developer in Carlow, Tipperary or wherever, that could create challenges for the developer, depending on the particular development.

It is about looking at communities as a whole. Arklow is probably the largest town in the country without a custom-built theatre or artistic-cultural space. I envisage this being a partnership between the local authority, with levies on developments, and, if necessary, commercial input.

An element of that is done from development contributions. In Carlow we have an arts centre. We were lucky.

It is a great facility.

That came from development contributions from developers over the years. There is an element where local authorities need to make sure. A lot of the members were councillors at one stage and know that those development contributions have huge draws on them, such as parks, sports facilities and everything else. You could look to earmark a percentage of that for arts spaces. I come back to the revenue funding. That arts centre, beautiful as it is, requires a €650,000 revenue investment on an annual basis from Carlow County Council, which is almost 1% of our total budget.

It is a great space in Carlow. I have been there, and I am familiar with it. I think that is a model. Every community in the country should have access to those types of facilities.

It is also important, however, that there be practice spaces for artists. People talk about renovating buildings but my view is that, in the long term, local authorities should have custom-built facilities they can rent out on long-term leases, thereby providing certainty.

We need to look at the whole thing as being like an ecosystem. Not every town can sustain a swimming pool or GAA stadium, as much as people would love one. It is about making sure the various elements of the ecosystem are there. Just as we do with swimming pools, there should be an arts centre within X km of every citizen. That is the way to look at it. We are now looking more at individual artists' practice spaces.

That is precisely it. What can we do in terms of changing legislation to put a requirement on local authorities to ensure they provide enough of those practice spaces and provide long-term certainty? I would love to see every local authority have that within its county structure.

I do not think it requires a change in legislation. As we said in our statement-----

Why then are more local authorities not doing it? I am asking for a recommendation as to what policy changes we need to make to ensure it happens.

As set out in our opening statement, local authorities are investing €49.5 million, including €6.3 million on capital projects annually. It goes back to the scheme. When it is up and running, it will allow us to do more. It is not a case of a lack of willingness on the part of local authorities; it is a question of limited resources having to be pulled and dragged everywhere to deliver everything. It is up to the Government whether it wants to earmark funding. From our perspective, as the Deputy probably knows from when he was a councillor, which I assume he was at one stage, if money is earmarked for the arts, it has to be taken from somewhere else.

I was always proud that Wexford County Council never cut the arts and library budget, even during the downturn.

Nor do we do so. My point is that if there is additional national capital funding, and it sounds like the scheme is nearly there, that will give us extra headroom.

I appreciate that but a lot of that money is going to go to existing theatres and arts spaces that are in real need of capital investment. I am thinking about new provision of studio spaces. Will Ms Fleming comment on that?

I ask Ms Fleming to be brief.

I sit on the strategic policy committee in Dublin County Council and am a complete convert to the per cent for art provision within the planning legislation. I really would love to see it rolled out in other local authorities. Frederick Douglass said, "Power concedes nothing without a demand". Sitting back and waiting for local authorities to decide that arts spaces are needed will not work. It has to be set out within the planning legislation. Mr. Ray Yeates, who is here, was a champion of that scheme. If any members of the committee have the time, I really advise them to visit some of the sites in Dublin that have resulted from the per cent for art scheme to date. They will be converted. It is fair to say that not every village or town in the country needs an arts centre but I can say for sure that every village and town in the country has artists and they need spaces. They will really deliver for communities if they are supported.

I thank all the witnesses for their attendance. This is an incredibly important conversation and it needs to be had. I am sorry I missed the opening statements but I got to read them before the meeting.

As has been alluded to, we are not just talking about artists with paints and easels, etc. While the image of a starving artist in a drafty garret might be very romantic, we should not be talking about that in 21st century Ireland. We are talking about visual artists, writers, poets, dancers and musicians who need rehearsal spaces. My fellow Droghedian Deputy Joanna Byrne mentioned brass bands.

I must slightly disagree with my colleague Deputy Malcolm Byrne on one point. Drogheda, which is the largest town in Ireland, has a very vibrant arts centre, the Droichead Arts Centre, but it is operating from a tiny premises. The people involved are working wonders from that premises. There is a €7 million price tag on the lovely purpose-built centre they would love to have. The arts capital grant scheme is very welcome but it is a drop in the ocean when the entire thing would not even cover one arts centre in an emerging city. We really need to look at how we can make that money stretch. There will be a tsunami of people applying for it. I apologise for using both "drop in the ocean" and "tsunami". I hope I will be pardoned for my puns.

We need to look outside many boxes to see how we can manage this. It is important that in every single one of these areas, people can have a viable career. It is fantastic to see the basic income for the arts scheme being extended but there is no point in being paid to do something if there is nowhere to do it. Artists are looking for spaces right across the country and we have vacant buildings in every single village, town and city. What are the missing links preventing those vacant properties from being connected with the dire need of artists for spaces? I would love an answer to that from each of the groups.

I certainly cannot speak about every missing link but this is something I think about a lot. Vacant privately owned buildings are one thing but when it comes to vacant publicly owned buildings, the State can have an active role. The Office of Public Works, OPW, and other State bodies like the HSE and the Courts Service have buildings in towns and cities across the island. A good bit of work has been done by the OPW in particular in analysing those sites in relation to the provision of housing. Where it has been found that sites are not suitable for housing, that could be a trigger point whereby the OPW or another State body - I do not mean to pick on the OPW - would consult the relevant local authority arts office. Those offices have a really good idea of what the demand typically is in their areas. They are probably the most appropriate State bodies for other States bodies to consult. It would be helpful to have more co-ordination in that regard whereby if the OPW was considering disposing of a building, for example, it would go to the local authority arts office before doing so and ask what the demand from local artists was. We need to establish some sort of process whereby artists are brought into consultation about the use of those buildings.

What Senator Comyn said about the Droichead Arts Centre was very interesting. Artists are very good at doing things on a shoestring. As Ms Fleming said, it is not ideal.

On Deputy Malcolm Byrne's point, I would love it if we had purpose-built, state-of-the-art facilities in every single town and city. Some of the solutions we are bringing to the committee are not coming from the perspective of a utopian vision but, rather, from a more pragmatic and realistic point of view as to where we are right now, which is that we have vacancy in our towns and artists without spaces. There are intuitive ways in which we can link the two and bridge that gap.

One of the overarching aspects of this is that, as my colleague said, artists are willing to operate on a shoestring. They are willing to enter spaces that are not ideal to do their work, practise and create things in their communities. The irony in all of this, as shown with what happened at The Complex, is that artists bring value to those spaces but they are then taken from them and sold. There is an element of trying to justify what we are asking for and feeling a sense constantly that the market cannot support art and it cannot buy its way in. Yet, when artists come into spaces where the imagination for their use is completely derelict and they bring imagination to the use of those buildings, they then bring value to them. Six or seven years later, however, the buildings are taken from them and sold.

Part of the problem is that we are kind of lying to ourselves that we do not know that the use of these buildings and the presence of art-making and art practice bring value to communities. In fact, they bring literal monetary value, as we see happening all the time. It is a mixture of things but one of them is actually protecting artists when they take over vacant buildings. Although that might be done on a meanwhile-use basis, there are ways in which we can ensure it does not become predatory. That is what we are witnessing and it is where the outrage came from with The Complex. It was very evident that art practice was bringing value, which was why it ended up being sold for a much higher profit than would have been the case before the reuse.

Should we be looking at targeting these vacant and derelict properties through funding and grants for the arts?

It goes back to securing the right building. I am conscious of what Ms Fleming said earlier about her office with the mould and no windows. There are buildings within our towns that would work perfectly but not every vacant or derelict building is acceptable from a health and safety perspective and so on. Local authorities should be able to look at an old shop that is closed in a rural town, for instance, and see about acquiring it as an arts space. However, the money for the acquisition has to come from somewhere. We were just debating whether compulsory purchase order legislation can be used to buy buildings for the arts. It applies to statutory functions and the question is whether the arts are a statutory function.

I will do a bit of research on that. There certainly is opportunity is the answer, but yet again it becomes a case of where the money comes from. I do not think it is right to expect artists to go into run-down buildings that have not had heating on for ten years, but at the same time that is the opportunity. We also have to have the money then to do it up.

Basically, there is no access for the artists to this funding that is already there for vacant and derelict properties.

Not for the artist but for the local authorities.

The local authorities, yes.

The one we are doing at the moment is a former fire station in Tullow in County Carlow. We have an application with the Department as we speak to do that up as an artists' space. It is the right building. If it is in good enough condition that it needs a little bit of capital investment and it can be acquired at a good rate, then the opportunity certainly is there.

The Arts Council does not have the remit for capital investment in the arts. What we do have is a huge body of evidence and research that points to the needs and gaps throughout the sector, and we will be adding to that in the coming months as we undertake a more comprehensive audit of the needs and gaps within the sector. We would be happy to work alongside the Department and continue to do so, along with our colleagues in local government.

What we have identified, and I know others have referred to this in their opening statements, is that there is a real need for an overarching strategy for a national arts infrastructure which looks at the needs of the ecosystem as a whole. What we are hearing is isolated incidences of where there are needs and gaps. A whole agency approach to addressing those needs would be really positive. Local authorities, the Department, Údarás na Gaeltachta, the OPW and the sector as well are central to informing that in order that it is coherent and cohesive. Not everyone will have a space in their community but there needs to be good and positive access.

I think I mentioned earlier, marrying the investment of the current spending with the capital investment as well. If you look at the basic income, that is the State investing in 2,000 artists. That is enlightened policy that is the envy internationally. Unless there is that underpinning capital investment to support that, we are missing a trick and we are missing it both for the artist and for the public.

I think we all agree on that.

That is exactly the point I was hoping to introduce in my own contribution. I thank everybody for being here today. I am reminded of how I butchered this before in the Chamber - Deputy Ó Snodaigh might remember - that slogan that constantly rings out: Ag tacú leis na healaíona, ag tacú linn. We all benefit from a thriving artists' community in this country. We all are consumers of art in whatever way. It is so important we improve the consistency of the structures that support artists, from departmental level to local authorities, NGOs and everybody. I agree the basic income scheme is welcome and very strong. I have issues with how it has been interrupted and the way it is progressing, but nonetheless it is a clear signal that we recognise that, in society, certain endeavours are rewarded and certain ones are not. It is often the ones I feel that are the most important that we as a society still fail to recognise, such as caring, artistic endeavours and studies. I believe we do not really have a proper balance yet in terms of how we support people who are pursuing these wonderful artistic pursuits.

I agree it is kind of useless to give people a basic income but not provide them with the spaces to then practise their arts. I would like to build on what Deputy Byrne was getting to in seeking to know what we need to make it a more consistent experience no matter where you are in the country and try to get away form the postcode lottery of local authorities either having the ability or willingness to prioritise and so on. I will give a shout out to the incredible arts officers in all of the local authorities, in particular in my own constituency of Dublin Rathdown, who do incredible work at community level to promote artistic endeavours.

I will start with the Department because I am curious about the funding. Does the Department have figures for, for example, how many studios were opened and closed since 2024?

I do not have them to hand. In terms of artists' workspaces we have worked with the local authorities on significant investments such as the space to create a programme in Dublin city centre, of which 15 artists' workspaces have been delivered to date. We anticipate there will be further spaces delivered shortly.

Are they completed?

Those 15 are completed.

Those 15 are completed. How many more will there be?

The space to create programme is for 60 artists' workspaces. In the artists' workspaces scheme, there has been a €6 million commitment to invite local authorities to present us with projects for funding. Depending on how densely populated their area, commitments to projects will be for either €150,000 or €300,000. As mentioned, we have some projects that are under assessment at the moment and we have paid out funding for seven different projects across six different local authorities. I do not have figures on-----

Could we maybe have a look? The Complex was such a high profile closure and something that has affected the entire artistic community and the public generally who used it. I would love to get a broader picture of what is shutting and what is opening. Perhaps Ms Sheehan could furnish that to the committee after today's meeting.

That is something I could take away.

Does Ms O'Callaghan have the details?

I do not have the details right here but we are looking at that as a live issue as well and working very closely with Visual Artists Ireland, in particular, in relation to visual artists studios and that. We are keeping an observatory on that as well.

That would be great. I thank Ms Sheehan and Ms O'Callaghan. I will move on to the question of local authorities and how they are supported because I think Deputy Byrne is right in saying that, for us as a committee, we can make more strongly the recommendations to Government on the specific structures the witnesses need. As a party, the Social Democrats supports greater authority and power being given to local authorities to do the jobs they are entrusted to do. CPO was mentioned and that earmarking or ring-fencing was one way to do this. Are there other specific measures that could help us with the consistency? That is what I am looking for more than anything else because I think that is what artists need - a bit of certainty.

I attend a lot of committees like this and one of the things that strikes me is that we come into a room and all of the people who can solve the problem are in the room, and then we head off. Ms O'Callaghan's suggestion of a national artists' spaces strategy allows us to, first, to see what exists and what we have, the baseline data. Once we have a strategy, we can develop an action plan and then we can cost it. At the moment, it is a bit of, there is a problem here, there is a problem there, and let us solve this, whereas the solution is probably a strategy that allows us to define the big arts spaces across the country and map them and then see if there are gaps, such as Deputy Malcolm Byrne referenced. Then it allows us to develop the hierarchy of facilities, that we have a big arts centre, a band space and artists' studios. Then we can start to say that every local authority needs to have ten artists' studios per 10,000 or 100,000 of population or whatever. Then you can look to see what that it will cost and put funding behind that.

Can I ask about the current funding structure for arts offices within local authorities. Is that adequate at the moment?

I would say this about the funding for everything in the local authorities, but the more money we can get, the more we can do and that is always the way. For instance, Fingal is putting €50 million of its own money into a library and arts centre in Swords, as we speak. Again, different local authorities have different resources. There is an inconsistency across that. The strategy would allow us to develop a caighdéan or a fairness across local authorities.

I will invite Mr. Kitt to come in but I will add a question to whatever he is going to contribute. He mentioned that he is being realistic and I really appreciate that. It goes with the name, Praxis equals practical in terms of what we are facing. What is the gold standard? If Mr. Kitt was describing more of what the artist community actually wants and needs, what would prevent artists from having to drop out of their life's vocation? What would be the gold standard? Feel free to jump in.

I am struggling to be dragged out of my realism into some sort of utopian ideal of the future. To come back and tie together a few of the things that were said, I agree with the national strategy idea and what Mr. O'Reilly was saying about the siloed nature in which we typically approach these issues. That is something we need to keep at the forefront of our minds. It is why I mentioned the night-time economy unit in the Department.

I sit on the night-time economy task force. It is an amazing effort in bringing together all the various stakeholders. The Arts Council, people who are involved in our national cultural institutions and local authority representatives are involved. It has been this body where we have been able to take all of those diverse views and bring them together in one dedicated place. If we were to do the same in the development of a national strategy for arts infrastructure through some sort of dedicated task force, that would be very useful.

In relation to the costing of these things, I have to point back to some of the successful examples I referenced earlier on. I refer to Flux, for example, in Dublin City Council. Ray Yeates was very involved in that process and the public tendering for that building. However, now it is an autonomous building. It is receiving some benefits in terms of its rental arrangements, obviously, and is not being charged at market rates but beyond that I do not think there is any funding for the actual space. There are models for small examples of these types of spaces. That is somewhat a gold standard. If we could have across all towns at least one functioning arts space as a foundation for us to then move on to build these more dedicated, purpose-built, state-of-the-art spaces, that would be a great place for us to start.

This is a very important topic. It is a completely underestimated topic. As a committee we have been collectively saying this for the guts of a year or however long the committee is in existence. In fairness to the Department, there is good will there as well. The €6 million is a drop in the ocean but it is a start. The number is so small that we might not be able to quantify the amount of interest in it. As the figure is so small, some organisations might not apply because there is an effort in applying in the first place. We might not be able to quantify totally because it is an effort to apply for something like this and with such a small fund there may be the question of whether it is worth it. That goes for all applications nowadays.

I am from the Nenagh area. We have a fabulous arts centre. Melanie Scott is the arts officer there and she is absolutely incredible. I want to put it on the public record that she is incredible. She has been there for decades. She is a sculptor by profession. She took that role and has been in it for decades. She works very closely with a lady called Rosemary Joyce and they have transformed the arts and the capacity of arts, artists and arts spaces in north Tipperary and Tipperary in general. The arts centre in Nenagh is thriving. My young fella spends every weekend there and it has changed his life unbelievably because that is his tribe and that is his work and what he loves; the Nenagh Youth Theatre and all of that.

I am very dedicated to how we can create these spaces. There are a couple of points I want to make. We have to amalgamate all of this. It is not just about the performing space; it is also about the preparatory space and the space to hold equipment. The space for all of that needs to be part of it. We have a postcode lottery. We have a geographical challenge. The audit, which my colleague spoke about earlier, is incredibly important. My wife is from south Kerry and I am looking at various options down there and thinking we would need a full audit around the country on what spaces are available. On the use of public buildings, I do not believe in just throwing in public buildings that have been vacant for 20 years because they would actually cost more than is appropriate. With public building, an audit would absolutely have to be used.

I was very taken by what Mr. Power said. It amalgamated something in my head. I have seen so many cases, because I have helped some of them, where artists or groups have come together and have gotten a building for a year or two, have added value to it and then lost it. It happens all over the country. It creates awareness of the value of a building, adds value to a building, makes it sexy and then the owner sells it. We have to stop that happening. It is disheartening then because so much effort is put into the building and then it is gone. Young people become socialised around the building. We have a building in Nenagh called the Scout's Hall, for historical purposes, developed with EU LEADER funding and Tipperary County Council. Thanks to Joe McGrath, Marcus O'Connor, Rosemary Joyce and Melanie Scott we were able to get that and get an anchored tenant, the Nenagh Choral Society, into it. It is used for lots of other things as well. That building now is there. If it was not for that long vision, I do not think we would have it. There are a lot of private buildings that are used temporarily and then are lost. We have to avoid that at all costs.

If I was to ask each and every person here, we all would know what the issues are. With the current funding situation, there is no point from a departmental point of view and a local authority point of view. I believe in development charges for this. I believe in ring-fencing a percentage of it. I am going to ask the same question as Mr. O'Reilly regarding compulsory purchase order capacity. I presume we are going to end up with an arts capital funding scheme that will eventually come on par or up to a certain level with the sports capital funding, which Deputy Byrne spoke about. However, we also need current funding. It is pointless otherwise because local authorities are not going to be able to fund it all the time.

What ideas or what views does each witness have in respect of how we can do both, with thinking outside the box on top of what we have said here? I will start with the Department.

I am here in a capacity related to capital funding. In terms of current funding-----

When we were developing this scheme, we spoke to stakeholders and, obviously, current funding also came up as an issue. The Minister has championed this capital scheme since he took office.

We appreciate that.

It has arisen as well from the previous iteration of this committee. The Development of Local and Community Arts report strongly emphasised the need for an arts capital scheme. That is what we focus on at the moment. However, we appreciate that current funding is an issue. Primary support for the arts in Ireland is provided by the Arts Council. That received a €140 million investment this year.

We are always looking to increase the funding. It has increased in recent years. Demand is outstripping the available funds by 66% this year.

Do you have any ideas outside of just Exchequer funds, directly or indirectly?

There are interesting models of private investment coming into the arts at the moment as well. We could also make a much better case for the value of the arts, particularly around animating communities through creating vibrant cultural communities, and also in terms of social cohesion. Making the case across government for the value the arts have to play into the future is crucial.

I have to say it out straight, as I said a few weeks ago, that the impact of Shane McGowan in my home town has been phenomenal. It is like a rocket has gone off socially, with all these other experiences, internationally and domestically.

The point regarding the value we place on the arts in a society is that it is up to us to promote it and put it out there. It can be sometimes viewed as niche. Sports clubs have lads queuing up to sponsor them and give them money. As a society and as local authorities, we should push the arts forward as the opportunity that relates there and try to link them up with it. That opportunity is there as well.

Could the local steel company or windows company sponsor local arts events or arts centres?

Yes. There has always been a kind of-----

Reticence to a point-----

A little bit but there has always been a group of people who privately will fund the arts. That is kind of historic.

I agree.

However, people need to see the opportunity is there-----

Okay, that is a fair point.

-----maybe for the local steel company to give a shed or a side building for the arts.

I will make three points. One is research which other people have mentioned. A gold standard of research has been attached to the basic income scheme. By having that data and those figures we can respond. We do not know what we do not know and what gets measured garners attention.

Second, we are a creative sector and the committee does not have to find the answer here alone. Come and talk to us and come and ask us.

That is a fair point.

We are very collegiate as a sector. We work together. We will come with co-operatives so we will make it easy.

I have just returned from Helsinki from a visit with an EU partner on a project where I toured an old asylum that is located in the centre of the town and has been turned into an amazing arts centre. We do not have to invent it all. We can look at other models around Europe, talk to our partners and get it.

The third is housing. It is an aspect that has not been mentioned but is important for us and I mentioned it in my opening statement. We could also consider work-live spaces. As representatives of the National Campaign for the Arts we felt despondent after reading the survey and research provided as part of the basic income scheme. Something that we knew anecdotally from our community but is a stark finding is the disproportionate way in which the arts sector has been impacted by the housing crisis because there are more artists who rent than in home ownership compared with the general population. Therefore, we will lose artists if we do not address their housing needs.

Earlier the consumption of culture was mentioned. There is over 50% of enforced deprivation in the arts. If we, as a nation who consume culture but cannot produce it, and art is produced in the spaces that we are talking about, then what is at risk is our cultural sovereignty because we cannot produce our own culture. I will outline what is at risk. This is not just about social cohesion and artists getting to pursue their dreams; it is about cultural sovereignty and that is one way to push that.

I agree with the previous speakers. A lot has been covered. The only thing to come to mind, and the Cathaoirleach spoke to the point made by Mr. Power, are people losing their space having invested so much value into it.

For example, I work voluntarily with Dublin Digital Radio and our studio is located in Flux Studios on Chatham Row. It is a publicly-owned building that is owned by the council. DDR has existed for ten years and we have been located in many spaces around this city, including at one point in the Complex. We have invested our time and energy into spaces. Now we find ourselves in a situation where we have security of tenancy. That means we can start to look to the future and develop the community around our cultural organisation of which I will give a good example. In our first year, we organised an event the first year we were there on St. Brigid's Day. We did the same the following year and now we have established a tradition. These are the rituals associated with the development of cultural organisations in communities.

I apologise; I was caught up next door. I have read the opening statements and warmly welcome the expected capital arts funding that is due to be announced. Most of the buildings are quite old with 50% of them dating from before 1919. I want to make sure that the criteria are right when it comes to laying this out. As I have mentioned here previously, I am from Arklow, County Wicklow. Arklow should be a template for what has not happened. As I have said here before, if people want to hold a concert in Arklow, which has a population of 13,500, they will have to go to the church, the school or the hotel, which is a frightening situation. Arklow is home to one of the most popular musical festivals in the country. Arklow also has a silver band and a pipe band. The town has everything going. I hope that the fund will help do up buildings. The population of Arklow does not have any buildings and need support. This reflects the point that has been made. We need to give arts a home.

The Arklow Shipping Silver Band, for example, has a local donor called Arklow Shipping, which is giving the band two thirds of the amount to build a brand new concert venue in Arklow, which has a population of 13,500. Literally this week, Stephen Smith and all his team, are going around with collection buckets, which is simply wrong for that size of a town. There should be supports available. Why have no supports been made available? It is our fault. I want to make sure that the fund is not just for doing up buildings. I ask the Department's representatives to confirm there will be support for areas that have never received support.

The Department's capital supports are for the existing stock of arts and culture infrastructure across the country. We do not purchase buildings and we do not provide funding for the purchase of buildings. The scheme will support the extensive existing stock. Deputy Byrne spoke earlier about an example in her local area of improving accessibility and the sustainability of buildings. To clarify, the scheme will not fund new builds nor provide funding to purchase buildings. The Department does not fund that

Does Ms Sheehan not think it is a shame that a town with a population of that size does not have an entertainment venue?

County and city development plans and the arts policy for the development of cultural infrastructure are a matter for the local authority. While I acknowledge the point made by the Deputy, the existing stock requires significant investment as well and the scheme will be geared towards the existing stock.

That is a shame because there are people who do not have existing stock.

The Department does not have a role in that. The development of cultural infrastructure is a matter for the local authority.

We discussed the development of a strategy before the Deputy arrived. I reiterate the key point that we, as all stakeholders, need to develop an overall national strategy that will look at towns like Arklow. It will state that every town with over 10,000 or 15,000 people needs an arts centre with "X" capacity. The first step in that is to have a cultural audit to see what is already available publicly, privately and whatever else. As has been mentioned, local authority arts officers are the best placed people to tell us what is going on everywhere on the ground. They have tentacles everywhere and they know absolutely everything that is going on. Based on that, a strategy and an action plan can be developed. As I said earlier, the people in the room today are the probably best people to do that work. We are more than happy to jointly lead on it with the Arts Council and we will create a national arts strategy within a year. Then we can approach the Government and say that X amount is required. That is probably the best way to do things. With the greatest respect, it sounds like Arklow has specific issues but I am sure that there are ten other Arklows around the country-----

Exactly.

-----that also need significant levels of funding.

I turns to the definition of an "artist". Ailish McCarthy was before the committee to discuss comedy. The case she put forward was game changing and fair play to her. I ask all the witnesses the following question. What is not included as an artist in terms of performance?

It goes back to my days as a member of Dublin City Council. Mr. Yates is here. We spent an awful lot of time discussing what culture was and trying to define "culture". An artist is really whatever an artist wants to be and whatever the art form is. Everything that is a performance that comes from the heart, is creative or is different, is art. The guys around me are probably better placed to describe art.

It depends on who you ask. My background is a musician but I am the chair of Praxis, which is the only union for artists and arts workers in this country. We have 500 members and we are an affiliate union with SIPTU. Our membership criteria are very open. We accept people who self-identify as artists. The Deputy has asked a philosophical question and I do not know that we have time to answer in detail.

A year ago the likes of Ailish McCarthy and other people who work in the comedy sector, and performers of country and western music, were not seen as artists and I felt that was a failing.

Absolutely. I agree that those people should be considered as artists. A great deal of work has been done to expand the categories and given them official recognition. When it comes to funding by the Arts Council, there is still work to be done in the area of comedy.

It is an evolving topic. I will defer to my colleagues.

It also depends on who are speaking to. If we are talking about the Art Council's funding procedures, it has different definitions in respect of that which are related to its responsibilities. It is not responsible for some of the amateur sector or some of the local sector. It is art that we are talking about. There is a difference between art and artists. There is a difference between professional artists and amateur artists. All of them are really important. They are the bedrock of culture. We are talking about cultural infrastructure. There is a huge problem with artists who are specifically trying to work professionally. That is because they are living in such unbelievable deprivation. It is a kind of canary-down-the-mine situation. We are just showing off that culture is not being supported properly. In the context of the example the Deputy gave of a particular town, everyone in that situation is trying to bring experience to something on some level, but there is nowhere to bring it. That is a cultural problem. Within that, there are artists and art and amateurs and professionals, but that is a cultural overview of an issue. Artists are just very good at showing that it is not working because we are at the coalface of the problem.

We will move to the second round. Members will have three minutes each.

We have had a good debate on the needs that exist. One of the headlines in the Irish Independent today refers to the State holding so many derelict buildings. Artists right around the country will be saying, "I want that one. I want that one. I want that one." There are 20 empty Garda stations. Think about what you could do with the space in a Garda station. Every cell could have an artist in it, with the door open sometimes. In my constituency, there are derelict buildings owned by the State. There is the James Weir Home on Cork Street. It is not fit for residential use, but the HSE does not know what to do with it. There is the Rupert Guinness Theatre. Guinness wants to give it to the council. The council does not have the money to take it off the company's hands because it needs a bit of upkeep. There are buildings available, but we need an acceleration of the arts capital grant. When applicants get it, they also need money to run it and bring it up to a standard whereby it will not be a danger to the artists involved and will be worthwhile. I visited the National Sculpture Factory - I do not know whether people know about it - in Cork. There are gaps under the door. There is brilliant work happening down there. I visited the Firkin Crane Theatre at the same time. It is brilliant, but those involved need money just for the day-to-day maintenance on the buildings in order to keep it open for the community.

How can we accelerate this work? It is needed now. Increasingly, as the witnesses said, they are getting priced out of it. Developers see the value of these properties and they are throwing people like the witnesses out. We will see that accelerating, which will mean that more artists will be screaming for places, not just in this city but also elsewhere. The key issue relates to how we accelerate the work that is already starting to happen.

Everybody here is in agreement that the current scheme is very welcome and that it is a start. The Department even acknowledges that. The Deputy gave the example of a vacant building that artists wanting to go into. Garda stations would not qualify under the current scheme because there might not be a long-term lease available or those involved might not be able to show the use it would be put to. This is an issue for the Department, the sector and the members of this committee to work on together in order to find what the limitations are. This is a pilot, and we are running it. There are limitations, which there have to be to start off. We push against it and find where we need to open it up. It is urgent. The thing we really want to get across is that this is not an issue that will arise ten years down the line; it is with us now. We would love to accelerate working closely with the Department to ensure that the next round of this increases the funding and, maybe, addresses some of the limitations of the criteria.

From the Department's point of view, how can we accelerate it?

At the risk of repeating myself, the scheme will be rolled out shortly. It is anticipated. I have mentioned that we do not have the Department of public expenditure's sanction yet, but we anticipate that this will come shortly. We will use the scheme to inform policy decision-making going forward. Unfortunately, as mentioned, we do not fund vacant properties currently. Leases were mentioned in the context of the difficulties arising in making applications. There is a whole piece there around when we make a significant investment and protecting the Minister's interests in terms of charges, etc., but that is an area we are looking at in order to ensure that it is not too prohibitive. In the context of the comments stakeholders working together, that is something that the Department would very much welcome.

Does Mr. Power wish to say something briefly?

The Deputy mentioned the National Sculpture Factory. I was artist in residence there for three years. I can completely attest to the fact that that building is doing its best to survive against all odds. I would imagine that if that €6 million was given to every existing institution in the country, it would not cover their bills. There is something to think about in that regard. What is at stake is not only absence of new infrastructure; it is also that the infrastructure that we have is rotting. That is not an issue being raised by people in it who are bailing the boat out every day. The idea of bringing a strategy together is extremely important because we need to hear their voices at an institutional level, really loudly. As much as anyone else, they know how they can save the situation.

This discussion is important in terms how we influence policy. We need to look at partnering with education providers. There would be a lot of focus on IDAT and NCAD - and in my case, there is the Gorey School of Art - but I am equally thinking about places, such as the National Centre for Excellence in Furniture Design and Technology in Letterfrack. It will be important that we interact in that space.

I have two questions, one of which is for Arts Council. It relates to the Odlums project that was done down on the docks. I recall going down and seeing it. I could really envisage the potential, even for circus arts. Where is that at the moment?

We did go down. It is a wonderful site. This meeting today is looking at the needs in terms of infrastructure. The Arts Council had identified needs. They still exist. We worked very closely with the port over a number of years to develop a vision for a campus on the Odlums site. We also appreciate the fact that we do not have capital funding and that there are challenges with major capital investment. The Department is aware of it. We do not-----

Would the officials from the Department prepared to comment? As a repurposing of a space, I could see it working. I would love to see them all over the country.

The proposal from the Arts Council for the Dublin Port project was a very worthy one. Unfortunately, at this time, there is just no funding available for that. Development plans have been fully committed to existing projects under the NDP.

I appreciate that. I am a big supporter of investing in the national cultural institutions, which we should be doing, but it should not be seen as an either-or. That is an important point to make.

Mr. Kitt, Mr. Power or Ms Fleming might come in on my final question. One of the issues that arises relates to artist's spaces and artists being able to live. In relation to local authority housing policies, I have previously raised the need to look at reserving a number of the cost rental places for artists. This came up at another discussion relating to artists. Do any of the witnesses wish to talk about allowing artists to be able to live in their communities? It is about whether we specifically earmark a number of places, because local authorities can do that for particular categories. In terms of housing policy-----

The NCFA has been making that argument for years. Constantly, the answer that we were given was that everybody is suffering as a result of the housing crisis and we cannot choose one cohort over the other. We have examples now where a cohort, namely that comprising gardaí, nurses and front-line workers, was given preferential treatment in one area of Dublin. To go back to the research, what the basic income has shown is that there is a case to be made for artists as a specific cohort to be assisted because more artists are in rental accommodation than is the case for members of the general population. More artists are living in precarity than is the case among members of the general population and therefore should be prioritised. There should be work-live or just live areas in every local authority area. We constantly hear from artists who do not get to live where they work or in the communities that they want to work with.

Those communities would really benefit from having those artists within them. We would like to see a special case being made for the cohort of artists, and dispensations being made within live, work or social housing for artists.

I would like us to include that as a formal recommendation as well.

From my own point of view, this has been one of the most constructive conversations we have had here in committee. We have come to some really great decisions. We need a national strategy on the arts. We possibly need a database of spaces across the country that can be brought to use and, of course, to provide a full arts capital grant fund as well. If that is not going to happen straightaway, we need to look at other funding sources. I am not sure if any of my other colleagues from the committee met with Myles Clarke, who is the chair of Business to Arts, a great charity that was founded in 1988. I was really impressed by what it had to offer. It bridges the link between the business and corporate world and the arts world. Its representatives tell me they are not only buying up corporate art, which is fantastic. Do not get me wrong. However, at the same time, the charity could sponsor events, spaces and artists in residence. We need to be looking to charities like that, which are very keen. There is a lot of money. It is not just the local steel company but there might be even bigger national and international corporations which could possibly sponsor some of these spaces. As I have a few more minutes, and while we are also looking at other funding, is there an EU country that we could be looking at, which is doing this really well - maybe the same population-wise and size-wise - and which could be a good template for what we need to be doing here to provide spaces?

I will give a brief answer to that because I do not have an overview of all of Europe. I spent quite a lot of time in Berlin and in Vienna and they have better housing models - full stop. As a result, when I speak to artists who live in Vienna and in Berlin, they are able to stay in the communities they are in because their rents are capped or are more secure. On some level, the problem comes down to whether or not you can live where you are from. We can easily look to European countries and cities for better housing models than what we have and that completely function and that could protect our citizens. We could list off five or six countries that have better models in that regard. As a working artist I go to those cities and I meet the artists who live there and while it is not perfect - nothing is perfect - they all have the base level. Something like the basic income that was brought in for us, they have a base level of survivability that our Irish artists do not have.

Another quick example that comes to mind is in Portugal where there is a cultural association model. It is a bit tangentially related. It allows groups and communities of cultural practitioners and enthusiasts to come together around a shared interest. In turn, they then receive exemptions from rates. They get subsidised rents for buildings, tax exemptions, etc. It is a model by which cultural co-operatives are facilitated. Something to note in Ireland is that it is very difficult for a cultural group to become a co-operative if it wants to. A lot of cultural organisations would like to organise themselves in that way. In that regard, something like the co-operative societies Bill is something that would be quite beneficial for artists being able to organise together. When artists can pool that resource, it facilities them in being better able to access infrastructure but, obviously, it is just once piece of a very complex puzzle.

I agree that it has been a really interesting conversation today with lots of ideas. I love the co-operative idea as well. I got my first set of digital decks this weekend, so I will be joining the cultural co-op.

We have just touched on Europe and other jurisdictions and best practise. I am curious to hear from everybody whether there are any initiatives or what their ideas are around how we can draw people back who have relocated to these other locations. We know that is obviously for a variety of reason, stretching from the basics of housing and the cost of living right through to the fact that a particular art scene might be more vibrant or thriving in a location elsewhere. I am sure there are more factors that drive people to different locations. Are there departmental discussions around that, for example? Does anybody else have anything they can contribute to that?

It goes back to my previous statement as to the value we place on the artist to society. It is up to us. Culture Night is probably one of the biggest nights of the year but it is a Friday night in September. It is a great night and loads of people who do not engage with the arts year-round engage with Culture Night. How do we make the arts more everyday so that people engage with it? There are loads of arts festival, and they are always a one-off, but how do we ensure those people have that ongoing opportunity to engage with the arts? As local authorities or the Arts Council, it is up to us to try to promote that further and make sure it happens in the centre of towns and not off the edge. There are all sorts of things like that. That is one element. It is the value we, as a society, place on the arts and how we add that. That will also assist in solving all the issues.

I think the basic income for artists is how we attract artists back but we roll it out for all those who are eligible. Of those 10,000 who have applied, probably 8,000 or 9,000 will be eligible. That will attract artists back. We are the envy of Europe with the basic income scheme for artists. We are constantly being called on to speak to artists and publications around-----

Can people apply from outside the jurisdiction?

No, but I mean it shows that we value our artists-----

I know what Ms Fleming means. I was just curious.

-----so they should stay at home or come home. That was one of the reasons for setting the scheme up. The other thing to mention is that we are about to start into the EU Presidency. This is a really brilliant opportunity for Ireland to take pride in and acknowledge the basic income and the work the Minister has done but also to talk to our European partners about how they manage infrastructure and maybe do site visits to other locations. There are examples of cities of culture that really invested in infrastructure at the time. That was part of their legacy. We have not tended to do that. Aarhus and Hull are examples at which we could look. There is a lot we can do in the next six months with our European partners.

I really do endorse the strategic infrastructure - or the strategy, essentially - for artists' infrastructure. That is definitely a recommendation we should pursue. Did anyone else have anything on that last question around drawing people back?

Due to our position in the artistic community, we are receiving email upon email from artists who are abroad who are pining to come home. The scheme has helped them to make the decision not to leave. Sadly, all it really took was a very humble intervention to suddenly stop this leak. Although we need a national strategy, and that is an absolutely brilliant idea, we will find the solutions will not be as vastly complex as we think.

I thank the witnesses.

The witnesses are all very welcome. First, from my own situation being on the Kilkenny-Carlow border, obviously from an artistic, a heritage and a cultural perspective, we are blessed. Ireland might be the envy of Europe but Kilkenny and Carlow are the envy of Ireland. We are very fortunate in that sense. I welcome Mr. O’Reilly here in the context of the VISUAL Carlow. We have seen first hand the importance of a venue like that and the impact it can have, not just on Carlow but on the surrounding counties as well. How important does Mr. O'Reilly think VISUAL is for people in Carlow as well as the likes of the Watergate Theatre in Kilkenny? What should Government be doing on an ongoing basis to continue support for places like VISUAL?

Second, on rural artists, I am a spokesperson for rural affairs for Fianna Fáil and there tends to be a theory that artists flock to cities or to major towns and that is it. If artists are from rural Ireland, are they getting equitable access to funding? I know they will get access through the basic income scheme but are they getting opportunities as well? Will the witnesses focus on that for me?

My final question is regarding the local authority and the arts office. I saw first hand, when I was a councillor, chairman of Kilkenny County Council and Mayor of Kilkenny, the incredible work the arts office does in Kilkenny County Council. I know it is the same in Carlow County Council. However, are local authorities adequately funded from an arts perspective? Should more funding be made available from a national perspective? Those are my three questions.

I will take the first and the third questions. Regional arts spaces like VISUAL are critically important because they provide places for people to express themselves. They are expensive to build and they are expensive to run; there is no hiding away from that. We discussed that. It is about the development of that ecosystem so we know we have a little bit of everything. It would be great to have an artists' space in Borris where Deputy Cleere is from, in one of the unused pubs or somewhere like that. If there is a little bit everywhere, it gives everybody an opportunity. The regional ones are critically important but there is also a need for a necklace surrounding them that feeds into that.

With regard to arts officers, from a local authority perspective we will take any money we can get, and spend it wisely at the behest and instruction of the local councillors, and Deputies as well. We are more than happy to take that input. We have good money. In fairness, we have more money than we have ever had in the arts and we are very happy with it. Creative Ireland and things like that have also added to the funding that is available. However, as members know, there is huge demand on our services so any additionality is welcome.

The festival of writing in Borris was absolutely fantastic. It was so interesting to see so many people coming from Ireland and abroad. We have things like the town of books coming up in Graiguenamanagh and so many fantastic smaller festivals where local artists can really show their produce. I was in Urlingford on Monday at the official opening of a community centre. The Minister, Deputy Calleary, was down for it. It was the first time I had seen paintings by local artists dotted around a community hall. It was absolutely fantastic and added so much character to the hall, as opposed to just being a physical building. Perhaps there is an opportunity for artists to display their work in our local halls. It adds so much character to the building as well. The Minister commented it was something he was looking at implementing in the many halls around the country that he goes to.

To speak to the Deputy's first two questions, VISUAL is an amazing piece of infrastructure. It is one of the best examples of its kind in the country. The Deputy's second question made me think about another brilliant arts space on the Kilkenny-Carlow border. I think it is on the Kilkenny side. It is called Brown Mountain Diamond and it is run an artist called Carl Giffney. He has a house where he lives with his partner Eimear and they have a barn beside the house they are now using as a gallery exhibition space. They hosts artists in the house and sometimes they do dances in the barn as well. It is inventive. Artists are finding solutions but they are finding them against all odds and it is really important to talk about that. In the context of the conversation we have had, we have been speaking about that entire ecosystem. We have amazing state-of-the-art facilities like VISUAL and they need to be protected to the end but as part of that ecosystem, we need small spaces for artists to build their practices up. That is a good example because Carl Giffney is not in a town, he is in the middle of the countryside.

If you will indulge me, Chair, I will give another example. I was down in-----

You missed your main one, so we will indulge you for another few minutes.

I was down in Graiguenamanagh a couple a weeks ago. There is a local artist called Jamie Dunne. There is a fantastic enterprise in Graiguenamanagh called Cushendale Woollen Mills. It is a sixth-generation woollen mill and it is amazing. It made its facility available for Jamie's art. It was a fantastic coming together of community, business and artists. There is a really good culture in Carlow-Kilkenny, and I am sure nationwide as well. We should harness that and bind it together even more strongly and have it in a structured way rather than just occasionally. It would be brilliant for the artists around the country.

I installed an artwork in VISUAL a month ago. The Deputy asked about the rural artist and the city artist. One of the things I found most disheartening heading towards VISUAL, which is one of the most beautiful buildings I have ever put anything into, was the cab drive there when the cab driver talked about how the town was falling apart. There was this really strange dissonance because in the conversation in the cab the driver was talking about the youth disappearing, the college being closed and the bars closing, and then we got to this building that is absolutely unbelievable. We have to remember culture cannot do everything and cultural buildings, no matter how beautiful, cannot do everything. They have to be surrounded by much more complex mycelial infrastructure than that.

Mr. O'Reilly wanted to come in there.

Ms O'Callaghan and Mr. O'Reilly can have 30 seconds each.

VISUAL is an example of a building that can accommodate scale. An infrastructure will really attend to a spectrum of needs in terms of scale, including the smaller thing the Deputy was describing in Graiguenamanagh. The Arts Council has a national remit and we deliver on that, so we fund the entire ecosystem that supports artists, whether that is through venues, 206 festivals, local authorities and over 100 national and regional organisations. In addition, we provide funding to individual artists. The applications for that come from everywhere. Obviously it is very competitive but we support as many artists as possible.

Do you want to reply to your constituent?

Mr. O'Reilly definitely wants to come in about Carlow.

I do not think I have ever met a cab driver who said the local authority was doing a great job and things were wonderful. The point is there is opportunity in every town across the country. It is the right building in the right place. We have searched all the buildings in Carlow. Some of them come in as housing and that is fine but some are in such a state of disrepair that the level of investment required to bring them up is far too high, even for the State.

All right. This is round two for Deputy Brennan.

What I am trying to get to is where we want to be in ten years' time. There are two factors. Number 1 is the fabulous capital ecosystem of what buildings we will have and then there is also the support for artists. As I said earlier, I would like a small change to capital so it looks at areas that have not been supported already. I mentioned earlier that individuals should be supported. I would love to have a forum where we meet people at the coalface to see how they are getting on. We have met people who are sleeping on couches and depending on what the get at the door to pay their bills. Those are the people I would love to have in here some day as well. On the vision, where can we, as a Government, continue to provide support to, because this scheme is hugely welcome, while also keeping our finger on the pulse so everyone is getting support as well? What is Mr. Kitt's opinion on that?

I think we all agree the levels of deprivation in the arts community are completely disproportionate compared with other sectors, so that input into any national strategy would be critically important. If we are to establish a national strategy, which we are talking about today, it is kind of about how that strategy is developed. I am quite optimistic about that. The Department has shown, especially in the past few years, an incredible capacity to consult the arts sector. Through Covid in particular there was an amazing amount of engagement between the Department and practitioners on the ground. A lot of those communication channels have been established. If we can build on that, it would be a way to put those experiences to the fore because that is where the solutions are, as Ms Fleming has alluded to.

If the Deputy is looking for where we want to be in the next ten years, I encourage him to read our pre-budget submission which will be out in two weeks. We will list a number of things that are needed that will get us to the place where we can support all artists in Ireland both through infrastructure and supporting them financially to make their work. The Deputy has probably read the surveys on the basic income scheme but in case he has not, there are some heartbreaking stories in there.

Yes, that is where my question came from.

We have had to step away sometimes from the stories that are being brought to us in the NCFA. They are really challenging. We will issue our pre-budget submission in the next two weeks and if the Government addresses all the issues within that in ten years' time we will have a fantastic arts sector.

On that, the role artists are playing in towns and villages in Ireland cannot be understated. Mark Redmond in Gorey is an uileann pipe player. He is rated one in the world. He is like our local Georgie Best down there. It is important that young people can look up to him especially in the age of the phone, as we have discussed so many times. Aileen Kenny has about 30 in a choir of harps. That is hitting the heart of every town and village and should be encouraged.

The Chair mentioned Shane McGowan. Look at people like Jessie Buckley and Cillian Murphy and what they bring to us. There are so many artists out there we are in danger of losing. There are towns that will lose those artists if we do not work now to address the work and living conditions of artists. I thank the Deputy for raising that.

I call Senator Duffy, who is becoming a semi-permanent member of the committee, by the looks of things.

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for letting me in. I appreciate it. I welcome everyone. I understand the value of artists. I was a former member of the Ballina Arts Centre which is a more formal provision of arts in a county. There is also the likes of the Linen Hall in Castlebar.

Co-operatives have also been mentioned here. I helped support a group that set up a home in a kind of disused council building. Some of the co-operatives had moved back from Berlin and other places where there were derelict buildings which were used for music and open mics, basically letting people flourish in their own talent, and it has proven to be very successful. They did not want a formal building like an arts centre that we would know, but instead wanted somewhere a little more edgy and off piste. They have benefited a lot from this and are now in the town centre in a more comfortable space as opposed to a formal one. Emerging talent and younger people might be less confident on a formal stage.

As a former board member of the Ballina Art Centre, I can say that the name of a place sometimes defines the formality of the shows put on there. This place is called NCF, and Seosamh Ó Cathail, who relocated back, is one of the main drivers behind it. The co-operative is doing great work and has named itself after the North Connacht Farmers' Co-operative, which is a nice tie-in to the old co-operative that was there. We also have Ballinglen Arts Foundation in Ballycastle, which is a little further out the road in a beautiful part of the world where we have had many high-profile people visit quietly to learn a lot about art and take workshops and classes there. They are inspired by the unique landscape, the cloud cover and different things like that, which we sometimes lament but which are actually very attractive.

Do you want to ask a question?

Yes, I am tying it all in nicely.

You have covered all of Mayo there; you are alright.

The Chair is giving me a hard time. The final point I will add is that I have listened in remotely to many of the contributions, but I would like to get some support on a project we have in an old Garda station for artists and residents. We were trying to work with the Royal Hibernian Academy, RHA, at a time when there was a huge oversupply. There is a place in Kilkenny that had two or three residences, but which had applications f over 60 members, so there is a huge demand for both physical artists' residences and capital funding to build them. We are trying to renovate an old Garda station using a THRIVE project funded by the EU, but I would welcome some support on that. I am basically putting it on the witnesses' radar in general.

If the witnesses have any other thoughts they would like to add-----

If there is anything left after we have all the money spent in Kilkenny, we will send it to the Senator.

Would anyone like to take that point?

There is an artists' workspace scheme, with a €6 million commitment from the Department, where we invite projects to increase capacity for artists' workspaces from local authorities and there is significant funding left there. That is one option. We will also have a scheme opening in the coming months.

Coming back to the example of the NCF, which we referenced in our opening statement, this is an amazing example of what could be happening in smaller towns across Ireland. Seosamh is a brilliant individual who thinks very deeply about these things, and his whole modus operandi is regenerating rural towns and bringing people back into them.

On the Senator's point about arts centres, these places do incredible work in trying to address how sometimes people feel intimidated when they walk into buildings like that, which is definitely an experience many people have with more formalised arts spaces. However, those examples are amazing, exceptional templates of what could be rolled out quite simply in many different towns across the country.

Very briefly, coming back to the live-work space, I know priority for social housing was mentioned earlier, but I would caution against that. There are people who are a long time on the social housing list, and there are many needs, such as people with children with disabilities and all sorts. However, the live-work space model is the way we should be looking to go, as it creates a unique space.

Apologies for being late. It is important to recognise some recent funding, particularly the new scheme to be announced by the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, for local and small groups in the arts. Applications are also open at the minute for the artist fund and the 2,000 places to support artists. There is a lot of investment being put into that area.

Coming from Longford, we have a thriving arts and cultural sector in a small county, supported by the local arts officer within the local authority, Shane Crossan, who is driving many national projects in the area. However, with the increase in costs, including rent - the Arts Council mentioned that 42% of arts workspaces have short-term leases - the cost of these spaces is going to increase. Will we see a fall-off in these spaces with people not being able to afford them. As was said by Mr. O'Reilly of the CCMA, when will we get to a situation where we will have a national strategy in every county whereby spaces are created and made available for workshops, etc., throughout the country, under the tutelage of local authorities instead of having to rely on private rent, which can fluctuate?

That goes back to an earlier point on developing a national strategy which allows all inputs to create a vision for the ecosystem we have of arts facilities across the country. That is everything from your big visuals and arts spaces, right down to live-work spaces. Once we have that strategy, we develop an action plan and define the financial ask nationally with regard to how much, roughly, that is going to cost to implement. That is probably the best way to do it. Otherwise, you are jumping here, there and everywhere.

The opportunity came up for the artist spaces, and from my point of view as chair of the RCCH, I said we needed to get a couple of those in and asked what buildings we had. We did an assessment of buildings and we had an ex-fire station and a cottage in St. Mullins that were submitted for application. When you have a strategy, people have to implement and accept it. We do strategies in the CCMA and all sorts of things, and then when it goes to the overall CCMA, all the chief executives agree and that becomes the national strategy. That is the best way to do it.

I will just jump in for a second because I know in the Backstage Theatre, which the witness will be well aware of, there is an artist studio where they work together in providing not just theatre and concerts, etc. but also workshops for artists during the week. Is that the model we need to see across the country?

I would be careful in defining a model because it is very dynamic and can be different things at different times. I would encourage it to be as flexible as possible and then, within that, to develop it. That would be my view.

The Arts Council funds 51 arts centres throughout the country. Speaking to the point, there are various models across each of them. Some work very closely with artists and provide artist studios, but the one thing they have in common is they are hubs within their communities for maintaining a thriving sense of the arts. They are absolutely essential.

In the past, there was a stock of art centres there which was a network built throughout the 1990s in the main and early 2000s. Visual was one of the later examples. The Arts Council worked hand-in-glove with the local authorities at that stage to ensure there was an arts centre in every local authority. We are now looking at the next tier of infrastructure and balancing that ecology. It is about looking at what the needs are.

As I mentioned earlier, we are looking at developing an audit on needs and gaps, and the ultimate goal here is a national infrastructure strategy where we are all around the table working together with the various inputs to look at a scalable infrastructure that meets the needs of both the artists and public. People have spoken about the value of the arts and just how extraordinary and lucky we are in Ireland to have such wonderful artists, but we need to support them so that the public can benefit also.

I have one little note regarding Garda stations. Our wonderful novelist, Kevin Barry, lives in a Garda station, just as a matter of record. It can be done.

I thank everyone for a very engaging session. We can see that, collectively, we are more or less in agreement. It is just a case of finding the funding and structures.

The audit is incredibly important, and the quicker that is done, the better.

As regards this capital scheme of which we are very supportive, I would say to the Department that we need to look at current side with many different avenues towards that. However, I ask the Department to not take the applications as a measurement of how much interest there is there. A significant amount of groups will not apply because the funding is so small and the volume of effort it takes for an application when that funding is so small negates many people from doing it in the first place. The Department can put on a multiplier effect in that regard.

I thank the witnesses and we will now go into private session for committee business.