The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss participation in cultural life by people with disabilities. On behalf of the committee I extend a warm welcome to Ms. Emilie Conway, a founder member, and Ms Aoife Ó Ceallacháin, from the Disabled Artists and Disabled Academics; Mr. Christian O'Reilly, playwright and screenwriter, who wrote No Magic Pill; Mr. Peter Kearns, actor; from Ablefest, Mr. Kevin Farrell and Mr. Shay Casserley; and from the Arts Council, Dr. Moling Ryan, interim director, and Ms Sinéad O'Reilly, arts director.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the privilege and some housekeeping matters. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. The evidence of witnesses physically present or those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

I am aware that a wide range of issues will be the subject of today's discussion. If necessary, further and more detailed information on certain issues raised can be submitted to the clerk of the committee for circulation to members. As we have a large number of organisations here this morning, I ask that they would adhere as closely as possible to the speaking time of five minutes, so that everybody can be heard equally. I now call on Ms Conway and Ms Ó Ceallacháin to make their opening statement. They have five minutes.

I welcome the new disability matters committee. DADA had a very good relationship with the previous committee. We look forward to working with members. We hope they will advocate on our behalf for the necessary changes to make it safe for disabled artists to participate in arts and cultural life. Since we were here before in 2021, there are three key pieces of research which now corroborate our personal stories and lived experience. We believe they should drive policy and regulatory and legislative change. The first is AMPLIFY: A Call for Transformative Action. The second is the research by Philip Finn on Artists at the Intersection of Work and Welfare, and the work by Tom Cooney, Navigating the Pathway to Entrepreneurship for Persons with Disabilities: Insights from an Irish Context.

The first question to ask is whether self-employment is safe. As we know, income in the arts is precarious, sporadic and low. When we add to that a disability with an additional cost, as Indecon has proven, it is made financially and medically unviable because all disability payments are means tested, which means that when an artist begins to fall into self-employment and earn money, we have to register as self-employed and we lose our disability supports. Because the medical card is means tested, it means that an artist will lose their medical card, putting him or her in a completely unsafe position to work since we know that incomes are low.

In order for a person in receipt of an invalidity pension to accept money for their work, they must be medically reassessed and downgraded from a "severe" to "moderate" disability. We are aware of the case of someone who suffered from stage 4 cancer who fell into this category. That is not medically viable or safe. We call for a non-means-tested payment, a scheme for self-employed or entrepreneurial disabled people, or to extend the current wage subsidy scheme, which non-disabled employers can avail of, to disabled self-employed people.

There is also a disconnect between arts income, welfare and revenue. If a revenue assessment is good enough for Revenue, it should be good enough for social protection. We must align the two income assessments. The same accountancy criteria should apply to people who do not have enough income to register with Revenue so that a fair assessment is made.

There is also a problem with training and travel whereby, again, any money or grants awarded for them is assessed as personal income, which severely affects the ability of disabled artists to participate on the world stage. I have sat on assessment panels for the Arts Council. We have to be very creative in how we get our training. Any money given towards training should not be assessed as personal income by the Department of Social Protection. That is a barrier to professional development.

There is also the fact that you are means assessed against your partner, which means that if somebody is with a fellow artist, that income is precarious. It is unfair to assess a disabled artist against their partner. It also puts people in a very vulnerable position for intimate partner abuse, which disabled women have proven is very high in the disabled community.

I am an access consultant, producer and freelance artist as well. I have a background in cultural policy and disability studies. I have hidden disabilities. I have chronic pain, endometriosis, autism and chronic fatigue - all these things. I had the privilege of operating in arts organisations under cover, so people were able to show their biases. I have a good perspective of the current gaps in the system. We want to talk about safety for disabled artists. What do we mean by safety? There is financial safety, physical safety and, most importantly, the safety to request reasonable accommodations. If something goes wrong, safety is kind of a flip of the coin. Either a person is supported or they are not. There is no structures around that. It is up to the individual person if they want to provide support. If you speak up, the odds are that you will just damage your reputation. You basically do not know what to do. That is especially the case with disabled freelancers, who are more precarious than non-disabled freelancers.

Access funding transparency is something I have been looking at recently.

The way it works at the moment is that access funding is awarded to an organisation for a project but only the main applicant knows how much was given so that organisation gets to decide who gets support. We have no right to question it or might not even know it exists. There are no safe reporting pathways at the moment. People think Safe to Create is a de facto HR but it is not. They think it of Minding Creative Minds but it is not, so we are kind of left in a limbo and do not know what to do.

We thank the Joint Committee on Disability Matters for the opportunity to bring the disability arts lived experience of producing my award-winning play No Magic Pill to committee members this morning. The purpose of the opening statement is to identify the knowledge and learning opportunities from the process and production of No Magic Pill, which we staged in 2022 and again for its national tour in 2024; and communicate disabled professional performer, playwright and producer insights from the nationwide staging of No Magic Pill to help to inform future engagement of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters with the mainstream Irish theatre community.

I first produced No Magic Pill in 2022 and produced it again in 2024 when it toured. The play is inspired by the life of activist and wheelchair-user Martin Naughton, one of the leaders of the disability rights movement in Ireland, who passed away in 2016. Our production broke new ground in Irish theatre in its casting of disabled actors, its presentation of an aesthetic of disability never before seen in Irish theatre and its considerations for disabled audience members, with enhanced accessibility including Irish Sign Language interpreting and audio description for every performance when it toured.

Before I became a scriptwriter, I worked as a disability rights lobbyist for Martin Naughton at the Centre for Independent Living, CIL, 30 years ago. Until then, I had regarded disabled people as figures of pity, tragedy and charity, best summed up by the phrase “Ah sure God love them”. However, I fell in with a crowd of disabled people through CIL, who completely changed my perception of disability. They were militant, cranky, funny, loveable and roguish and determined to change the world. They soon became my friends. We were guided by CIL’s mantra, nothing about us without us. It was an experience I knew I would want to write about.

This resulted first in the feature film Inside I’m Dancing. I am proud of that film but it does not tell the story I set out to tell, so I decided to try again, this time with a play. I made all kinds of mistakes when developing my script for No Magic Pill. The early drafts did not work because I had written a sanitised, sanctimonious Martin who no one could relate to. I then workshopped it with non-disabled actors instead of disabled actors. I soon realised I was trying to tell a story about disability without involving any disabled people in the creative process. I had completely ignored the CIL mantra, nothing about us without us.

I went looking for a disability consultant and soon met Peter Kearns, who is sitting next to me, of the national disabled person's organisation, DPO, Independent Living Movement Ireland, ILMI, formerly CIL. When Peter joined the project as its disability, equality theatre dramaturg, everything changed. In urging me to set myself free as a writer, he helped me discover the play I needed to write. He authenticated everything I wrote and gave me the confidence to take risks in my writing. The play improved dramatically. With Raymond Keane coming on board as director, we made an important decision – to cast disabled actors as the disabled characters in the play. This should be obvious but in fact it was ground-breaking. Why? It is because the tradition in Irish theatre and film until then was to cast non-disabled actors as disabled characters. Some examples are Daniel Day-Lewis in My Left Foot and James McAvoy in Inside I’m Dancing. Our ambition was to draw a line in the sand and put an end to this practice once and for all.

The Arts Council backed our production vision and, thanks to our partnerships with ILMI as a social model-led DPO, Disability Federation of Ireland and the Irish Wheelchair Association, we advertised nationwide to assemble a cast of disabled actors who had mostly never acted before. The decision to cast disabled actors meant that we needed to factor in various access costs, such as personal assistance, accessible accommodation, accessible rehearsal space, additional rehearsal time, and a theatre set that needed to be accessible and, more important, a set that would enable the magic of theatre to shine on the central character of Martin, who embodies theatre’s eternal fascination with the anti-hero and over-reacher.

Martin, the man in the play for which Mr. O'Reilly wrote the script, is a fantastic anti-hero and dramatic over-reacher who was an essential aspect of theatre. As alternative disability equality theatre dramaturgs, Mr. O'Reilly, Mr. Keane and I were adamant that this had to be a professional stand-alone piece of theatre and it could not give off any whiff of inspirational-porn, community arts or issue-based drama. The disability equality dramaturgy was an early part of the production. We decided to present an aesthetic of disability never before seen in Irish theatre. We would present disabled people, not as figures of pity or tragedy, but as living, breathing, complex, flawed and sexual characters who share the same over-reaching dreams to realise rich and fulfilled lives as the rest of the population of this Republic. I delivered workshops to the disabled and non-disabled crew members, grounded in the social model of disability and these workshops highlighted the barriers created by society for disabled people.

We are calling for greater access not only for disabled audiences to performance spaces but also on stage and backstage for disabled performers, creators and producers, with accessible dressing rooms, green rooms and effective stage access. Our professional experience with No Magic Pill very much emphasises a requirement to support disabled persons-led companies and to move away from the tokenistic use or medical and charity model narratives of disability themes in theatre, which are usually performed without including disabled actors. We also note to the Joint Committee on Disability Matters that the Irish theatre community can be quite resistant to discussions around disability and urge the sector to address these cultural challenges.

We say this with the confidence that comes from an extraordinary response to the show. We had standing ovations after every performance. The Irish Times described it as "physically striking" and "gutsy and engaging" and went on to say: "The casting makes an important point, but it also works: these are believable, powerful performances". The Irish Independent said: "This campaigning show demonstrates the vividness and vivacity that disabled cast members can bring to the theatrical moment". Our production won the audience choice award at the 2022 Irish Times Irish Theatre Awards.

People seemed surprised by the show. Maybe they expected that a show about a disabled activist featuring disabled actors would be dull, worthy, boring and preachy, instead of what it is, fun, funny, romantic, entertaining, moving, sexy and eye-opening. After seeing the show, the CEO of ILMI, Damien Walshe, sent me the following by email:

I am struck that No Magic Pilll has the potential to completely alter how people think about disability...I have learned over the years that art is usually the best vehicle for change. When theatre goers get to see No Magic Pill in its full glory, that will be a genuinely transformative event.

I thank Mr. O'Reilly. You are well over time. The last bit of the statement will be published on the committee website. We will move on to the next group.

I am co-founder of Ablefest and director of Able Events CLG, Ireland's first events company with events tailored for people with additional needs, where everyone is welcome. Our attendees call Ablefest their Electric Picnic. Able Events means the equivalent of the Special Olympics to people with additional needs, in the music and events world. Just like the Special Olympics, a company like Able Events should be in every country in the world.

I thank the committee for having us here today. We both have children with additional needs. We look at the world through their eyes and we listen to what they have to say. We have been running events for many years now. In July 2025, we had our best Ablefest event to date, with over 2,500 people attending Fairyhouse Racecourse for music and entertainment from the likes of Jake Carter, Johnny Brady and many more. There were also sensory areas, an Accessoloo, art stations, traditional music, bingo loco and much more. Other events we hold include Ablefest Tradfest, in association with Tradfest in Dublin, Ablefest Killarney in association with the Killarney St. Patrick's Day festival team, AbleSpin, the trucks, bikes, cars and tractor show, Soccerfest, Able Celtic and Countryfest and more. Most recently, we held the Able Globe Awards in the Headfort Arms Hotel in Kells, probably the most inclusive and special awards ceremony in the world. On the night, we handed out over 70 individually engraved awards, for best brother, best artist and so on. It was amazing. Everyone wore their suits and glamorous dresses.

My son once said to me, "Dad would it not be great if, when all the big acts that come to Ireland, they sold tickets to all of us with additional needs and let us go to their concerts, including everyone in wheelchairs, without having to put us in an area where there is a cage? Then we could move around freely like we do at AbleFest and enjoy it like everyone else".

Inclusion is good but it does not work for everyone or every event. People with additional needs feel more relaxed and comfortable when they are in the company of people who are in a similar position to themselves. This is also the case for most parents of children with additional needs. It is expensive to run all of these events each year and we hope to continuously make more and more events possible through help from where it is possible.

Maidin mhaith daoibh go léir. Is onóir dom labhairt libh faoinár dturas le Ablefest agus an míchumas in Éirinn. Good morning to everyone. I am honoured to speak about our journey with Ablefest and disability in Ireland. I thank Mr. Kevin Farrell for his introduction and his incredible work with Ablefest. He certainly set a high bar, comparing us to Electric Picnic, but I think our budget is a little smaller. My name is Shay Casserley, and while Kevin and I share a bond as co-founders of Ablefest, I come at this mission from a slightly different, though equally passionate, angle.

For the past few years, my professional home has been with Louth and Meath Education and Training Board, LMETB, where I work as a filmmaker and tutor. My specialty is not just teaching technical skills but empowering people to connect and encouraging people who have additional needs. I run workshops and classes focused entirely on ensuring that everyone gets a chance to tell their story, build their confidence, and learn something new in a supportive environment. As part of my work with LMETB, I have had the privilege of producing community awareness films with the incredible disability groups I support. Our projects, called 20 People 2 Questions and Underestimate Me, That Will Be Fun! have been proudly showcased on RTÉ News and across social media, sharing authentic voices and powerful stories. Being an advocate for the people I work with is not just part of my job. It is an honour, and one of the most meaningful aspects of the work I do.

This specialisation is not something I learned from a book. It is something that I live every day. My greatest teacher is my wonderful son, who is 16, who has Down's syndrome and autism. Trust me, life with him never has a dull moment. It is a constant masterclass in patience, finding joy in small victories, and realising that sometimes, the best conversations happen without any words at all. His journey, and the journey of every student I teach, is why I am such an advocate and a voice for the unspoken. It is why I helped Kevin create Ablefest because inclusion is not just about opening a door. It is about making sure the music is just right, the space is safe, and everyone feels like they truly belong.

My personal motto is simple. I always choose to see the glass as half-full, never empty. That is not naive but practical. It means I focus relentlessly on positivity, empowerment, and encouragement. We are not here to talk about deficits. We are here to build a future where every single person, regardless of their path in life, is valued, included, and given the tools to thrive. Whether I am behind the camera, running a workshop, or helping Kevin organise the most inclusive awards ceremony on the planet, my mission is the same, to build a more inclusive life for all walks of life. I look forward to sharing more of our story. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Good morning. I thank the committee. I am joined by my colleague, Sinéad O’Reilly, who is the combined arts director in the Arts Council. As the committee knows, the Arts Council is the national government agency for funding, developing and promoting the arts in Ireland. Our role is to advise, invest and work in partnership with others, to cultivate a vibrant arts environment at the heart of Irish society. We operate with the belief that every person living in Ireland has the right to create, engage with, enjoy and participate in the arts. The values of diversity and freedom of thought and expression are at the core of what we do. We work to achieve and advise on the goals within Ireland’s national human rights strategy for disabled people and the United Nations Convention of the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Our targeted funding programmes, partnerships, and initiatives supported by ongoing research all take a human rights approach. Underpinning our work is the lived experience of disability in Ireland. We are here to speak about Arts Council work, not to speak for disabled artists and audiences. Our language use is informed by the approach of the National Disability Authority’s advice paper on disability language and terminology and the language preferences of the artists we engage with.

I will share an overview of the Arts Council’s actions in this area, made possible by ongoing Government investment, and our advice on actions that can increase participation. At the heart of our development work is the funding of organisational arts infrastructure. Since 2007, we have funded and partnered with Arts and Disability Ireland, ADI, the national resource agency for the development of arts and disability in Ireland. It has run the arts connect scheme, supporting the practice and career development of disabled artists, on our behalf for the past ten years. We directly fund organisations that enable and fund disabled artists. Examples include the Kilkenny Collective for Arts Talent, KCAT, and Run of the Mill Theatre, which is a theatre company led by people with Down's syndrome. We also fund organisations which run programmes developed by and for people with disabilities as part of their work, such as the Project Arts Centre.

Disabled artists can access all Arts Council funding schemes, and among our staff is a full-time disability access officer. A total of 16% of applicants reported they had a disability in 2024, which is an increase of 4% since 2023. We do not silo work on disability and participation and understand that disadvantage can intersect. We require all organisations that we fund on a recurring basis to have a mature equality, diversity and inclusion action plan. We partner with organisations, including Pavee Point, and fund festivals such as First Fortnight. Data from our flagship programme, culture night, which is delivered with local authorities, shows participation of disabled audiences is rising. We recognise the cost of disability and support artists by providing personal disability access costs within their funding applications for many schemes. In 2025, we will award nearly €1 million, providing access to support workers, assistive technology, additional rehearsal or studio time, transport and administrative support, but there is more to achieve.

Disabled artists and audiences listening today may say they do have the support they need. We understand there is more work to do and we are measuring and learning all the time. This is a critical underpinning of initiatives. Improvements are needed to ensure that everyone’s right to attend an arts venue can be fulfilled. In our 2024 research, only 12% believed there are equal opportunities to attend the arts, so, we have brought all in, which is a particular process and initiative, to Ireland. It is a new disabled-led, audience access scheme for creativity and culture across the UK and Ireland, first initiated in Wales. We are excited to start a pilot in 2026. This will provide a framework for better access. To create a sea change in the lives of people with disabilities, capital investment is required for our arts venues. While all public buildings are required to be accessible, we know that the lived experience of accessibility is varied and often sub-optimal.

The Minister's announcement in budget 2026 of a €6 million capital fund is a step in the right direction. We advise that the development of a longer-term arts infrastructure strategy is critical to meeting obligations under the UNCRPD, which formalises the right of people with disabilities to participate on an equal basis with others in cultural life. Our recently published research, which was referred to earlier, Artists at the Intersection of Work and Welfare, reflects the lived experience of disabled artists who report they continue to encounter significant barriers to working in the arts sector. If artists receive funding from the Arts Council or other grant providers, they may lose welfare benefits. We feel this is an example of exclusionary practice as it impacts the rights of artists with disabilities to have professional careers in the arts. There is always more to do. We will pursue sustained investment in disabled artists, and audiences, through arts organisations and programmes. Our advice is that two critical areas can be addressed to make a difference now, which are the development of income disregard policy and the development of a capital infrastructure fund. I thank the committee for listening. We look forward to questions.

I thank the witnesses for being here. It is great to have such a range of perspectives on an area of disability that is too often eclipsed by the focus that we tend to have in politics on disability services meeting basic needs. The whole disability sector has been so abjectly neglected that it is sometimes hard to shift our focus beyond that base level of Maslow's hierarchy and what is needed to survive as a disabled person.

The whole sphere of art and creativity is something we need to learn an awful lot more about in our committee and as a society for disabled people.

I wish to start by asking if any of the panel would like comment on how they feel their disability has shaped their artistic lives or creative endeavours.

It depends on what the Deputy actually means by the word "disability". My impairment label is "cerebral palsy". It is a makey-up label from the Industrial Revolution. My disillusionment is with attitudinal barriers in the arts. While we are talking about my disability, we can see it with a lot of disabled artists. It is, mainly, attitudinal barriers in the arts community. Irish theatre is full of disabled characters. They are not performed or written by disabled people. In terms of disability, my main barrier would be the access to attitudes of the Irish arts community.

I would back up what Mr. Kearns is saying. I would say my disability or impairment is actually not the problem. The problem arises where it is the disabling effect of the culture and society and the fact that living with an impairment costs more and then, when I earn money as an artist, I lose my disability support. It is not the disability; it is our entitlement to what we need. The Deputy talked about basic needs. Basic needs do not go away but what happens if you earn money as an artist is that, suddenly, the whole cost and impact of that disability is transferred back to you and you have to come up with that money to buy all the things you need in order to do your art. The talent is there but we are blocking talent and its development by not securing the things we need to just do that. The talent does not go away either but we are losing the voice and the contribution by removing medical cards and disability allowance, making people on invalidity pensions say they are moderately disabled and lose the supports they need in order to sell a painting. The disability is not the problem and this is where we really hope this group will lead on policy, regulatory and legislative change.

I want to make one clarification. I was not necessarily implying that it had to be a negative influence on the witnesses' creative lives. It obviously could be but for some people, in how you engage with the artistic sphere there can be a positive aspect coming from disability. I wanted to make that clear.

Yes. The problems come where all our entitlement or access to what we need for our disability is conditional, means-tested and outsourced. You have the case where employers will get a wage subsidy scheme to hire a disabled person but disabled artists are self-employed. We just lose all our supports, including our medical card and everything. That is a reason a lot of disabled artists turned down the basic income for the arts because they were afraid. They could not risk losing a medical card so they did not get that benefit. What also happened is that their basic income went towards paying for their disability because they had their disability allowance or whatever reduced. There really is another side to all of this.

I spent two years working in the Abbey Theatre, the national theatre, 20 years ago on looking at disability. At that time, there were ten new plays. Eight of those plays had something to do with disability, or with disabled characters or stories. I pointed out that none of those plays were written by disabled people. There were no disabled actors or producers. There was uproar just for pointing that out. The arts community also needs to talk directly to disabled people. We need to get over that idea of disability being inspirational porn or "special needs". It needs to talk directly to us.

How does Ireland fare compared with other countries the witnesses are aware of, with regard to promoting the artistic life and creativity of disabled people? What countries should we be trying to emulate?

The Deputy could look at Scotland or the North of Ireland, where you have the health executive with the arts and disability forum and the disabled people's organisation, DPO. That structural and jurisdictional relationship with disabled artists recognises arts producers, which the South just has not got. Ms Conway and I are looking forward to a national disability arts DPO getting recognition as a point of contact. Disabled artists need a point of contact with the State, not "special needs" or "additional needs" or whatever.

I will just add something to it, with the events that we do, we always make sure there is a space for people with additional needs to be able to perform. When we teamed up with TradFest to do TradFest AbleFest, we had Fionnathan, which is an act with a dad and a son who performed at TradFest AbleFest this year. They will perform again next year. As a result of that, they were flown over to America and the Irish Fest in Milwaukee, where they got to perform on the main stage. There are an awful lot of people who have additional needs and are hugely talented. They deserve the opportunity to be out there performing wherever they want to, all the time.

I thank Deputy Quaide. His time is up. The next person who has indicated to speak is Deputy Keira Keogh of Fine Gael, who is joining us online.

I wish everybody a good morning and thank our witnesses for being here. For everybody who is celebrating the International Day of Persons with Disabilities, it is very poignant that we are meeting this morning.

I will go to Mr. Farrell first. I was really struck by something he said. I think it was his son mentioned going to concerts and performances and feeling like he was in a cage. I wonder how that looks at AbleFest, and how it is made safe and accessible for people with disabilities without them being segregated from the main audience.

I can give an example of when he was at a mainstream one as well, if that is okay.

Yes.

We went to a big concert about a year and a half ago. We were put off to one side first. We were in, say, the cage areas out the back for all the wheelchairs. My son has a cane. When they saw us coming in they asked if they could help us and I said we could not get a disability ticket. To cut a long story short, they brought us up to a nice area where you could look down at it and see the concert. It was lovely but he said something to me straight away. I think he was about 12 at the time. That is when he was said that line: "Daddy, can you do me a favour? Can you talk to the Government?" I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "I would love to be down there with everybody and I would love if everybody in the wheelchairs could be let out of that cage, because that is what it looks like, and we could all go up together, enjoy ourselves and be up the front like everybody else is. Why can we not do that?" I said, "Jesus, I do not know what to say to you". Then he said, "Did you not set up AbleFest with Shay?" I said yes, and he asked me if I could have a think about it. That is how that evolved. We have been doing AbleFest since 2018 and there are no barriers at AbleFest. That is the thing about it. Everybody is welcome to come to AbleFest - I will just put it out there and say it, as it will be on in July next year. You will never see so many wheelchairs in the one space in your life and they can go anywhere they want. They can go up the front to the main stage. There are loads of stages with lots of things going on. We made it to have no barriers where people can go and enjoy every aspect of it.

I thank Mr. Farrell. I am also struck by looking at physical access, communication access, programme design and attitudes and awareness. I was recently at what was called the Crow Gallery, which was for disabled artists or artists with additional needs during Westival, which is a festival in my home town of Westport, organised by Anna Wall. I was thinking about when we look at the cost of braille or a sign language interpreter. Last week, we had a celebration of the International Day of Persons with Disabilities with the Ceann Comhairle in the dining room, and there were students who had developed a mobile ramp for one of their fellow students when they realised on transition year trips that he was not able to get into some of the museums or spaces.

I am wondering about the costs to community and voluntary organisations. Is that something the Arts Council could help with? How do we get over that barrier when so many events are organised by voluntary and community organisations which might only think about a disability after the fact, when they send out a survey or questionnaire. Some events are organised at the last minute, such that surveys and questionnaires are often not handed out. I ask that the Arts Council answer that question. Will Ms Ó Ceallacháin from DADA also answer it, given that she spoke about her hidden disability?

In terms of organising physical access, that is a point that is cultural and attitudinal. You just have to think about it in advance. For example, where there is an open mic night or something and I would love to go but it is upstairs, if I ask if there a lift and the reply is "No", it is a case of my saying "Okay, thanks." People have to want to change these things. That comes from a leadership position but, unfortunately, given what we have already been talking about, disabled people are often excluded from leadership positions because they want to keep their medical card.

During the summer, I had to decide whether I wanted to go on disability allowance or pursue a proper career. I did the benefit-of-work estimator. Under disability allowance, I would be allowed to work 15 hours a week. The maximum I could ever earn was about €500, which is topped up with the disability allowance. That means I would have to find some sort of leadership position where I would be wanted for 15 hours a week, and that is it. So many positions are full-time, however. I do not know what I am supposed to do. There is such a push for disabled people to be in full employment and this and that but you come against barriers. I do not know what I am supposed to do. That is not an answer to the Deputy's question but it is a point anyway.

I thank Ms Ó Ceallacháin. That message has been really clear today, as it has been on other days that we had different speakers in, as regards losing welfare benefits and the cost-of-disability payment. That is coming out loud and clear in every session.

I thank the Deputy for the question. In terms of audience access, the cost of that and the intention of organisers to build that in so their events are as inclusive as possible, the Arts Council encourages all applicants to build audience access costs into their funding applications to us to ensure their publicly facing work is inclusive of a range of disabled access needs. We absolutely encourage that.

We are also hyper-focused on disabled audiences and the arts. We have brought All In to Ireland, which Dr. Ryan referred to earlier. That is a new audience access scheme for creativity and culture across the UK and Ireland, with our partners in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is due to enter its pilot phase in Ireland next year, which is excellent. Both Mr. Kearns and Ms Conway are on the expert advisory group for the integration of that scheme in Ireland. That means disabled audiences can register once and their needs are then shared across a range of venues so they do not have to keep repeating their needs.

This will be a game-changer for disabled audiences. It will also highlight where some venues and places do not have the right physical capacity. That will highlight the capital need even further when this comes into play. We look forward to that moment.

I am actually on the advisory committee for All In. It is brilliant and I am really looking forward to its roll-out here. If you consider access costs and disability from the outset, nobody is thinking about what the financial return on that might actually be. We are excluding a massive audience. What about old people? That is one group that everybody will be a part of, if you are lucky enough to live long enough. There will be somebody who has a disability and then the elderly because that is what happens. Studies need to be done on what the financial return could be on this. As we saw with the basic income, giving non-disabled artists €325 a week actually paid off because the State is better off. There is research to prove that. It is a very important consideration.

As Ms Ó Ceallacháin said, we should consider, as disabled artists which we both are, we are very much drivers of change within the sector. One of the reasons DADA was set up was that I want the world to be more accessible and I want more disabled artists out there. The more disabled artists you have, the more disabled audiences you will have because people will see their experiences represented on stage and they will connect with it.

We are drivers of change and that carries a huge emotional burden. We are not only working on our art but also driving the change. As Ms Ó Ceallacháin pointed out, that makes people uncomfortable. That can be unsafe and can bring reputational damage because attitudes to disability are still not totally there yet.

The witnesses are all welcome this morning and I thank them for being with us. Income disregard is obviously an important question and one the committee addressed at recent meetings. We will follow up on it.

This may be available already but is there a necessity for structured education and training for persons with disabilities to get into this whole area? I am thinking in particular of younger persons with disabilities. Is there a role for the education and training boards across the country to introduce some kind of formal training in this area? What is the situation with that?

I thank the Deputy. There is a need. There is also a need to work with local disabled persons' organisations. They are quite happy to work on that. It would be great to attract more disabled actors and writers. The institutions have to be attractive to disabled people as well. As there is a growing number of disabled persons organisations across the country, they should be the first points of contact in terms of looking at that.

There is a specific need for either resources or some sort of training for self-employed disabled people. A lot of people do not know their rights and do not have the tools to enforce them safely. There is a big push for people to have access riders that will say that if they work an event, they would like certain things to be in place. At the moment, however, if someone gives that to an employer, the employer does not have to adhere to it and they can use it to exclude the person by saying it is too much and they do not want to do it. The person then has to go back two steps and ask if the employer will want to support them, what disabilities they should hide and what disabilities they should highlight. It all comes back to the safety issue.

In particular, I have noticed this year that there are a lot of neurodivergent women in the arts who undercharge for their services. If someone is told by an organisation or company that it only has a certain amount of money, the response from the artist is usually that they would love to do it because it relates to disability and the artist would love to be included. However, the organisation may actually have had the money. The artist is just lied to. What is the artist supposed to do? They can challenge it but then they are not hired. It is this strange, limbo position.

It is important for the committee to know what the main barriers are to disabled people getting into this area. Will the witnesses identify those barriers?

It is about direct contact with disabled people. There are a lot of non-disabled people out there who are pushing special needs or happy-clappy stuff. There should be direct contact with disabled artists and their organisations.

I agree with Mr. Kearns on direct contact. We are all artists in DADA. There are 80-plus people. We have attracted disabled artists from Europe. We talk to each other all the time. One of the main barriers is the fact that the cost of disability is transferred back in an arena where there is precarity squared. There is the precarity of the sector and the precarity of a disability or impairment. Transferring the cost back to the person makes it unsafe and financially unviable to keep going as an artist. I know this because I have got several emails from people in tears because the Department of Social Protection was reviewing them. They asked what they should do because they want to do their art but it is not safe. They say that obviously it is not safe and that the State does not want their art because it is threatening to take away their disability allowance.

We advocate for training for social protection staff. What is happening is that when people are being reviewed the social welfare inspectors do not understand the precarity and the sporadic nature of income in the arts. An award or grant is not personal income; it is to pay collaborators and for materials. It might be for a whole year, and it is not for that week. Training is needed for departmental staff. If this were done, it would help a bit.

I thank the witnesses for the enrichment they have made to our lives. I thank Ms Conway for her beautiful composition and performance at the Ceann Comhairle's reception last week.

I agree with that.

I will be a real fan girl now about "Inside I'm dancing", Ablefest, the Arts Council and all of the different offerings that are there.

I will direct my first question to Ms Conway and Ms Ó Ceallacháin, if I may. They were here four years ago, in 2021. I thank them for the comprehensive information they have provided to us and for all of the links supplied. We are a new committee. Do they see anything that has moved on or changed following the recommendations they made four years ago?

That is why we have research. Lived experience is always important, but now we have qualitative and quantitative research that corroborates the stories. I see no reason to delay on making changes. We have the research to back it up.

My next question is for the Arts Council representatives. I thank them for meeting us. What type of consultation process takes place with disabled persons' organisations and with individual artists and visual artists? Does the council have any interaction with the HSE on personalised budgets? I am very much aware of young people in the Carlow and Kilkenny area who are visual artists but their personalised budgets are possibly at risk because of potential changes. Is there any interaction with the HSE? There seem to be a lot of layers in the consultation process. Is there a way of short-circuiting the funding the Arts Council receives in order that it would go directly to as many artists as possible?

As Ms Conway referenced, lived experience underpins all of our actions and considerations around all access needs for artists and audiences. The research Ms Conway referenced is Artists at the Intersection of Work and Welfare. We have a couple of hard copies of it if committee members want to take them today. It is research we conducted in partnership with Maynooth University and Research Ireland. It is very robust work that involves the lived experience of 30 different artists who live with disability and who are navigating the challenges they face.

Consultation is hugely informed, not only in terms of our work with organisations but also with regard to our own staff who live with disabilities. One of our board members is a wheelchair user. We very much take all of this on board and it is a huge part of the grounding and foundation of all of these decisions.

We work and fund a number of organisations that also work in this space. The partnership is with them too. Earlier we referenced Arts and Disability Ireland and we support it to provide direct supports to artists with disabilities. We fund many organisations to make sure they have their EDI policies. To return to the earlier question on training, we provide training supports to those organisations to make sure their EDI policies and implementation plans are robust and that their implementation plans are actionable and measurable. We take this very seriously.

With regard to the HSE and personalised budgets, is this something in the realm of the Arts Council? Is there any interaction on this? If not, it is an area I respectfully suggest could be pursued.

Yes, we do. We are part of the national creative arts and health group along with the Department of Health, the HSE and Creative Ireland. I am not aware of this is not a topic coming up on the agenda of the group but I will make sure it does.

That is brilliant. I thank Ms O'Reilly. It is an area for expansion. With regard to Ablefest, I am going to be blunt and cheeky. I know from the advertisements that there were calls out for sponsorship. What supports, of any type, are available to Ablefest to make it more accessible? It has come in leaps and bounds from its beginnings on Causey Farm to Fairyhouse. Is it self-funded? Is there moderate sponsorship? What does it get and what does it need?

It is self-funded, but I want to thank the Minister, Deputy McEntee, Meath County Council, Purple Wall and our other sponsors that came on board this year. They made a huge difference to the event this year. Normally, we rely heavily on ticket sales to keep the event going and to allow us to do other events. I thank the people who did come on board with sponsorship because it made a huge difference. I ring various agencies throughout the country to ask about funding, but because we are unique and new and nobody else is doing what we are doing, there does not seem to be a funding bracket for us to fall under to be allowed to apply for funding. I found this to be a bit of a hurdle.

It is about the goodwill of people and ticket sales. Word-of-mouth has grown the festival to be the size it is. I thank the media, including RTÉ, LMFM and the Meath Chronicle, which have really promoted what we do. It is starting to make an impact now and more people will get involved. We are open a little more towards bringing extra arts on board also. We are not solely concentrating on music. We want to open up to all different arts.

I want to sneak in one very quick question. I know there might be a second round. This question is for Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Kearns. With regard to debriefing and follow-up, is there a formal mechanism post-production for participation by the audience, actors or the wider circle?

After every show, we had audience engagement. It usually went on for over an hour.

We had to kick people out. They wanted to go home. Although I am not too keen on that, as I think a piece of theatre should stand on its own, the audience was very keen to talk about it afterwards. We introduced questions and answers after the show. No Magic Pill is a piece of theatre. The outcome is that we had to do a lot of work on access and disability equality. Our main focus was a piece of theatre, not calling ourselves inspirational or worthy for a challenging piece of theatre. As Ms Conway touched on, disabled artists also want to make art. We do not want to be always crusading for recognition or support. That is why the disability arts DPO is so important. It has direct contact with disabled artists. Again, as Mr. O'Reilly said, we were very keen that No Magic Pill would stand alone as a piece of theatre and not as a campaign.

We noticed that people were surprised by the show and would say to us that it has completely shifted how they perceive disability. That was a really encouraging response. That was the reason we then did a national tour in 2024. Our dream would be to bring it to Dublin city centre, the centre of power and decision-making, where it could be widely seen and where there is a potential for a greater number of people, particularly decision-makers and policymakers, to see what we are presenting and how that can shift their perception of disability in a positive and necessary way.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming in, for their opening statements and for the great work they all do. I find the world of arts absolutely amazing. It is important that all of us, including able-bodied people with disabilities - everyone - can have the chance to enjoy it. Regardless of whether enjoyment is through work or participation, it is important that everyone gets a chance to participate in the wonderful world of arts.

I will start with Mr. Farrell and Mr. Casserley. Ablefest is one of the best ideas I have ever heard. It actually blows me away. I did note that they were saying that there is a high cost of running these events and my colleague was questioning it earlier as well. Obviously a dedicated funding stream from the Government or whatever would be ideal. Could they see that working? How would it be structured? How would it ensure that the festival continues? Would it be a great help to them?

Ablefest was the start of everything. Going into next year, we are doing seven events in total. There is room to do more. If there was dedicated support from the State for each event, it could all be done on an accountancy basis to ensure everything is going and what is needed. There would be no problem doing that. It would take a lot of pressure off. People do not see that side of things. I will use my son Joshua's word. We appear to be doing okay and not be stressed about it, but we are. There was one event we did recently. I remember calling Mr. Casserley and asking whether we should wait and see what happens, whether we should call it off and wondered what was going to happen. The next thing was it sold out - out of the blue. We find from talking to a lot of the families - this is especially true in our own house - that because people are neurodivergent, you might buy a ticket in January to go somewhere in June but then they do not want to go. Therefore, there is a big wait to get closer to the event to buy the tickets.

A lot of help has started coming. People are trying to help out on a voluntary basis to get more awareness out there as well. They say there are about 1.2 million people in Ireland diagnosed with additional need that we know of. If even 40,000 people are aware of what we do, we are basically relying on a Facebook page. That is what we are doing. We do a little bit on Instagram. As people say when I am talking to them, I am wearing 100 hats, trying to ring around, meet and talk to people who can support us and get help in any way we can. I am also trying to look after the social media things. Everything is a job in itself, if that makes sense. Somebody told me the other day if I had somebody dedicated to communications on a full-time basis, spreading the word and the joy about everything we are doing, more people would be aware. There are a lot of things we still need to do.

Yes. A few bob would be handy.

It would.

I wish to address the Senator's question on funding streams for festivals. It is great to meet Mr. Casserley and Mr. Farrell. We have a funding stream for festivals. We would be happy to pick up the conversation after this. We are also aware that the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport has a funding stream for small festivals as well and summer schools, etc. There are funding streams there. We would be very happy to have a conversation.

I am a matchmaker.

When the State is providing funding, it is important that disabled artists and disabled people are at the centre of any design of it. We have a disabled person's organisation, but I hope that any request will work with it to design the scheme. We have to be careful not to be encouraging too much special needs work. That seems like it would be good for people, but is not necessarily supported by disabled artists.

On festival design, if you hire somebody like Ms Ó Ceallacháin, who is a disabled access consultant, it will be disability-led.

In my perspective, audience access is not particularly radical. If you remove those barriers in the first place and decide to have it in a venue that is accessible from the start, you build from there. You do not have to dismantle barriers as you go. It is about design.

Mr. O'Reilly's production broke new ground by casting disabled actors. It is a pity in one way that a big deal was made of it and that it is not more the norm. I congratulate him again on his work. What policy, funding or planning could be brought in to make this the norm? Instead of having people say "Isn't this great?", it could be part of everyday life that the casting is for disabled people as well.

We wanted to draw a line in the sand with No Magic Pill in terms of the commitment to casting disabled actors. We hoped that this would then influence the theatre community outside of us. It remains to be seen whether that has been achieved.

The Arts Council was fantastically supportive. We were taking a big artistic leap with this because we said we wanted to do this show with disabled actors while knowing that there was no pool of disabled actors due to the lack of training and opportunities. How do you achieve that and not fall flat on your face? We also knew about the costs that come with that. Personal assistants and accessible rehearsal space, accessible accommodation and so forth lead to substantial access costs. The Arts Council, to its great credit, completely backed that vision, knowing the risk that we could all look really foolish. It was quite triumphant. The power and the performances of those actors were extraordinary and audiences recognised that. In a way, the hope would be that this transmits itself and people see that this is the way to do things. We just do not know.

I want to dispel the myth that is developing that there are very few disabled artists. There are lots of them. Ms Ó Ceallacháin is one and Mr. Garry is another and there are 80 members of DADA. The problem is that a lot of the time, the public does not hear about them because they are quietly working away and because it takes so much energy to deal with the Department of Social Protection about reviews and to manage their fears about their medical cards. People's energy is divided between trying to keep body and soul together, doing their art and then, like us here today, advocating for change. No Magic Pill was or is ground-breaking but just to correct that record, there are lots of disabled artists but because of how our energy is divided, people may not hear about us.

No, we know that.

This is especially the case for people with energy-limiting disabilities. This is it. There is no art to be made apart from this. Like, tomorrow, I will not be able to move.

We put additional needs to the forefront of everything. What struck me, even before we had our own kids, when my wife was doing nursing with people with intellectual disabilities, she might bring someone in a wheelchair outside and someone might ask "What do you think he'd like". She would always direct the person to talk directly to the disabled person. That always stuck with me. We see things through the eyes of our children and all the people who people who have shaped our thinking in workshops. We always talk to them about different ideas and how to bring people along to the events. It is very important that we get their insights.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as an deis labhairt ar an ábhar seo. This is a vital issue we are dealing with and one that an awful lot of people do not consider. My first questions are to Mr. Farrell and Mr. Casserley about the idea of accessibility. As accessible as venues and facilities can be, I assume there will always be elements that can be improved. What are the added costs in relation to this? Then perhaps we could hear from Dr. Ryan or Ms O'Reilly about whether there are allowances in their funding for these added costs.

Is the Deputy asking about the added costs of bringing those into mainstream festivals?

I was going to ask that after, but for Mr. Farrell I was going to ask about accessibility. We can talk about venues such as the Aviva Stadium, Slane, or the 3Arena. I accept that big concerts will be very different from smaller festivals.

Basically, we look at access first of all. Credit goes to Fairyhouse racecourse, which is phenomenal. It has tarmac or concrete everywhere so there is a nice smooth surface for wheelchair users and people with canes. There is no need for matting to be put down in this venue. Then we need to consider toilets as well. To use my wife as a reference again, I remember her telling me that sometimes she would leave the service with someone and they might need to use the bathroom at some point in the journey. If the venue they were going to did not have a hoist, they would have to return to the service.

I met a group myself, and the idea of proper changing rooms is huge, and they are not in enough places. It is also important to make sure people know they are there.

We use a company called AccessoLoo from Northern Ireland, which uses two box-body trucks. There are hoists and beds in the trucks, so that is what we do for toilets.

I imagine that is a considerable cost.

Yes, it costs about €1,500 for the two of them alone. When it comes to sensory issues, the more people coming, the more we need to make sure we have an adequate number of quieter spaces for people to be able to go to, and sensory equipment may be needed as well. That can add up. A company called Spinney is going to have a presence at Ablefest and Ablefest TradFest this year. It will donate its time and equipment to help neurodivergent people through virtual reality and Spinney chairs. For the sensory equipment needed at our festival, it costs about €1,200 at the moment, but if ticket sales increase next year we might have to add to that. We like to make sure that we have a sufficient area for the number of people that are coming.

We are talking about €2,700, so let us assume around €3,000 or probably more. That is probably a serious percentage of the operating costs.

Equine Ability also join us on a voluntary basis. Mr. Casserley might want to add something on this.

That service brings a lovely calmness, because it allows people to engage with horse therapies. For instance if somebody has a bit of a wobble at the festival and it has been seen, they can be taken to quiet areas to engage with the animals. It brings them back down and they calm down so much. It is fantastic to be able to showcase the organisation's abilities and services. The charity is based in Castletown in County Meath and its staff provide the service to us on a voluntary basis. It really works and it has been complimented by people from all over the country.

Fair play to them, but again, that is voluntary and really good on their part and really lucky on Ablefest's part.

The arts area is another calming area, where people can draw, colour or make key rings. Another organisation comes and runs that area for us but we buy all the equipment, which costs about €500. If we were to pay people to do everything, we could be looking at around €5,000 or €6,000, all in, just for those bits.

Yes, I would have thought so. It would be good if we could go straight on to the Arts Council in relation to how we cover this.

I am very happy to address this. The cost of disability is something that we very mindful of in terms of personal disability access costs and for audience access costs. This is why we ask applicants to build in the audience access costs into their applications. We are also mindful of the ongoing capital need. We have some costs around what a funded arts centre or a venue might need in capital to bring the venue up to speed.

That is a huge cost, somewhere between-----

About €200,000 would be needed.

The carrot-and-stick approach is also needed, particularly in relation to bigger venues.

Mr. Casserley and Mr. Farrell referred to the annual cost of their programme, but there is also the ongoing capital cost. More capital investment means that fewer ongoing interventions are needed.

I would like to speak about the access costs as well.

Yes, and perhaps Ms Ó Ceallacháin could also speak about how we can make as accessible as possible some of the big venues and the big concerts.

That would be up to the all-in committee. We can park that, but access costs, from my experience, would be for Irish Sign Language interpreters and audio description. Ideally, there should be some sort of parking subsidy for people with limited energy. In a venue, there might be printing costs, or things might need to be translated into Braille. There might be a need for an access officer who would be able to advocate for disabled artists and audiences on site in order for it to be safe. For the Disrupt Disability Arts Festival in March we had a deaf performer, Sarah-Jane O'Regan, and for her performance we did a sign language disco. It was a majority deaf audience and we gave everyone balloons. They were able to use the balloons to integrate with the music of the bass, because it is a sensory thing. The balloons were not an expensive cost, but it is just about the creative thinking around it.

That event was part of the Disrupt Disability Arts Festival, which has been going for two years. The festival platforms artists with disabilities across theatre, dance, poetry and visual art. It is a lot for three days in a row. It is in the Project Arts Centre. The team is majority disability-led.

We were talking about the national cultural institutions. The All In scheme will be dealing with, or certainly making an impact as regards, regularising and streamlining access.

At the moment, you are at the mercy of whoever is on staff that day. For example, the Olympia has two wheelchair spots. You are put up on a platform. You are not in the audience; you are separated.

That is similar to what Mr. Farrell said earlier.

Yes, exactly.

I have a quick point on that. We need an arts and disability hub that all of the arts and cultural institutions can go to for direction. We hope we will get a disability arts DPO and that it will become the go-to place for our cultural centres to get access to advice.

It is about having a conversation with the right people.

Yes.

Mr. O'Reilly's account of the attitude shift he underwent in relation to disability in the course of working with the centre for independent living was refreshingly honest. Does he have any thoughts about how we, as a society, can fundamentally change our attitudes to disability? To my mind, legislative and policy change can sometimes lead to changing attitudes. Does Mr. O'Reilly have any further thoughts on that? Does anyone else want to come in on that?

What comes to mind is a quote from the end of our presentation. It applies to No Magic Pill but I think it also applies to art in general. Mr. Kearns's colleague at ILMI, Damien Walshe, said this after seeing No Magic Pill:

I am struck that No Magic Pill has the potential to completely alter how people think about disability ... I have learned over the years that art is usually the best vehicle for change. When theatre goers get to see No Magic Pill in its full glory, that will be a genuinely transformative event.

There are many potentially transformative events from disabled artists that can change that perception probably more powerfully than reports can. We just need more stories. I consider myself a non-disabled ally but what is needed are disabled people telling their stories, performing their stories and creating their art. The more of that we see, the more people can change how they see people. The most important thing is to support storytelling and the creation of art by disabled artists.

It does not just have to be about disabilities. That is a big thing. People think that, because you are disabled, you are going to talk about disabilities but we do other things.

I will just add something. Somebody brought up training before. It is a huge barrier that training awards are assessed as income. Children or young people who have disabilities who are developing their art need to be able to do the training that works for their impairments. At the moment, Arts and Disability Ireland awards a mentorship or training but then the Department of Social Protection takes away part of the disability allowance. That is blocking training and development. That is something that could be changed.

On what Ms Conway was talking about there, if you get an award of €2,000, that €2,000 is used to pay your mentor and yourself, so you might get €800. However, it goes into your account, so the Department thinks it is all your income when it is not. What was the analogy I used? It is like a project grant being awarded but, instead of going to the company, it just went to the CEO's salary. That is not how it works. You pay all of the costs out of it. It is not income.

If we were to look at the next five years and how we can make arts and culture more equitable and accessible for disabled people, what are the key priority political actions we should focus on? What key legislative changes would bring about a fundamental shift? Are a whole range of things required?

It occurs to me that the committee is dealing with national disability charities. Arts and culture are an important part of that. The DPOs are central to that contact. The main thing is to keep that growing appreciation for direct contact with DPOs. That will help disabled artists. I will also point out that, just because you have an impairment label - my impairment label is cerebral palsy - it does not necessarily mean you are a disabled artist. Disabled artists also need disability equality training. Coming through that is an almighty pill. We are quite challenged by the disability equality training. We need to get away from this idea that people with an impairment label are suddenly disabled artists. They are not.

On the medical card and the disability support book, we should stop the means testing and make it taxable so that people can take care of their medical and disability impacts and be free to do their art. If they make that much money on top, they can give it back in tax.

From my perspective, representation of disabled women in particular is important. A lot of disabilities that affect women in the majority have historically been thought of psychosomatic. Chronic pain, autoimmune conditions and long Covid affect women more than men. It is usually four to one. We are all hiding and dealing with these all of the time. I am taking a risk today. This is going to wreck me for a few days. We have been working on this for five days.

Five days or five years.

Ms Conway has been working on it for five years. I have been working on it for five days. Everything, including just doing this, comes with a cost when you are living with an array of conditions. It should not be forgotten that these things can disproportionately affect women.

Absolutely.

On awareness about people with additional needs as performers, artists and things like that, a young person, I think he was only eight at the time, asked me years ago why, when you see famous people like singers or footballers everywhere on posters at bus stops, billboards and so on, you do not see any people who have disabilities. That is very true. Can you imagine living in a world where you see big posters and advertisements featuring actors, singers and artists with additional needs? The younger generation coming up would then have people to look up to rather than it not being very visible. That could really help.

From the perspective of the Arts Council, there is a huge difference between what we regard as priorities and those that have been articulated by the disabled artists here. We would again emphasise the development of the income disregard fund. That is a crucial element. A number of people here have given examples of the impact of the cost of disability in relation to their artist's work and its significance as regards their benefits. The second point I would like to emphasise is the whole issue of infrastructure and the capacity of people with disabilities to physically navigate the venues and various other areas they have a right to attend.

I am wondering about the availability or non-availability of performance and rehearsal space, and the appropriateness or otherwise of that space. Is there a cost of adapting it? Are grants available for that?

This month I will be helping out on a performance but the director is a wheelchair user so instead of having the rehearsal space in the Abbey, we have to do it somewhere else. It just means we have to adapt and find somewhere else. It affects people with limited mobility or wheelchair users. If someone wanted a residency with, say, the Dublin Fringe Festival, the residency is up five flights of stairs. People could get it but they are not actually able to go upstairs and hang out with everyone. I do not know what they are supposed to do.

There is a role for some of our national cultural institutions, which are accessible, to row in behind this and make spaces available to disabled artists for rehearsals or workshops. I am thinking as a jazz singer that the Cooler jazz club is upstairs in an old building that cannot be made accessible. The concert hall could step in and give rehearsal space to disabled musicians.

When we were rehearsing No Magic Pill, we needed a venue that was accessible, and that was a challenge. We eventually found Artane School of Music. Not only was it inaccessible, but we needed to make sure it had accessible toilets. We learned from rehearsals and from the venues in which we staged the show. I was a non-disabled producer working with a non-disabled director. Sometimes venues looked accessible to us or the venue would think it was accessible.

We learned early on to do an access audit, by which I mean we got out of the way and let our disabled cast members come to the venue. A good example was on day one we brought in our accessible set, or so we thought. We were congratulating ourselves on the fact the ramps led to the circular area and so forth. It was a beautiful set. Then our cast of wheelchair users came in, looked at it and said it was not accessible. We said we had adhered to the guidelines and they said they did not care if we had because the ramp was too steep. They demonstrated it and that applied to each venue we went to. We put in our A-team and said, "We're told it's accessible. Is it?" We discovered that, say, a certain ramp was not accessible or toilets that were supposed to be accessible were not.

It came back to the fact the only expertise to trust was that of our disabled artists at the core of it. We learned to do that early on and it guided us in everything we did, with Mr. Kearns being at the core of that from the scriptwriting point of view. That then informed every decision we made on rehearsal spaces. Another thing we had to assess was accommodation. Was it actually accessible? We had to check it to make sure it was and that required a wheelchair user.

It should not be the disabled artist's burden to assess whether a venue is accessible. That is probably why someone else is needed to do that.

We factored that into our budget and paid them to do that as a separate fee-----

Perfect.

-----but you are right.

We also worked with ILMI for the theatrical performance.

I acknowledge the considerable extra effort disabled artists have to put into finding appropriate spaces to work in. The Arts Council is part of the night-time economy implementation group and part of the work done with that in an intersectional way in terms of disability is an audit of arts and cultural spaces around the country. We did the audit in 2023 and shared it with our partners in the night-time economy and local authorities. It showed 50% of our building stock of venues, arts centres and cultural spaces is over 100 years old. Infrastructurally, they are very challenged in terms of having the right types of space. The most recent batch of venues that have come along were built 20 or 30 years ago so they are not fully accessible in the way we now understand access.

Digging a little deeper into that audit, we also discovered only 31% of stage and backstage spaces are appropriately accessible for performers. That is really poor. While they may be more physically accessible for audiences, they are not for performers. That underpins our call for prioritisation of access needs in any capital scheme that might come along.

I have a couple of questions for Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Kearns. What progress, if any, has been made and what actions have been taken to get No Magic Pill onto the leaving certificate curriculum? Related to that, we have the audiovisual room on the campus, which is a lecture-style room. I will probably get a slap on the wrist but I am thinking in terms of an in-house performance going forward in terms of space that could possibly be shared with the secretariat.

My own experience of the audiovisual room is it is particularly inaccessible. I will put this on public record because I have written to the Ceann Comhairle on a number of occasions. This is supposed to be the most accessible room in the Oireachtas, committee room number 1, and it simply is not. We need to look at the whole of what we are doing. I appeal to people who might be listening to put pressure on to make this room, at least, accessible. I am sorry, Deputy.

You are grand. That is partly why I raised it - public record. Being serious, is there any progress regarding the leaving certificate curriculum? Perhaps it is something we can flag from the perspective of the importance of awareness and inclusion. Has there been any follow-up?

We would probably say "No". We see it as a piece of theatre and it should happen in a theatre. We could easily go round the country to community centres but we feel that would undervalue the art. We are thankful for the invites but we think it should be in the Abbey on the national stage. So far, we are not getting much traction from the Abbey or many other Dublin city centre theatres. We had it in Tallaght Civic Theatre, which was fantastic. They were our partners from the start. They recognised the play should be in a Dublin city centre theatre venue but we are not getting that traction.

As a matter of interest, the National Theatre Bucharest has mounted a production of No Magic Pill with a cast of disabled Romanian actors. It ran last June and I went over with my wife and family to see it. There was a sustained ten-minute standing ovation for the show. I have never experienced anything like it. I am not singing the praises of the play but I think people were so moved by disabled performers - people who are usually invisible to them - performing the show. It has gone on to the permanent repertory of the National Theatre Bucharest for the next 12 months. We would love our national theatre to embrace it in a similar way. We offered to do an access audit of the Abbey, not to be adversarial but simply to say, "We have found solutions to making other venues accessible. Let us help you make this accessible." It would be an amazing statement if our national theatre embraced this project and put it on stage.

On the question of getting No Magic Pill onto the leaving certificate, we have not made any progress there and have not necessarily known how to. We would be very grateful for any support or championing of that by members.

I thank Mr. O'Reilly. I have another couple of questions. Meath County Council is the lead local authority for the Age Friendly Ireland programme, which is about accessibility for older people, but obviously the ground is most definitely common. Has there been any collaboration or contact by the DPOs with Meath County Council on that taking the principles and the actions of the Age Friendly Ireland programme. It has gone to New York city. It would be very helpful in terms of the overall access piece, and I can work through the secretariat on the links for that, if that would be helpful.

Meath DPO has been doing great work on that for a year now. The DPO is the first point of contact for local authorities. It is actually recognised as a go-to group for Meath. It is 100% made up of the same people. It took them ten months to create a constitution and mandate which they worked hard on. The good news is that is there.

I note the House of the Oireachtas service's championing of disabled artists and I commend them. Since the Deputy mentioned the AV room, the Ceann Comhairle had an event last week celebrating persons with disability. Maybe next year there could be a festival here with all disabled artists paid a professional free to perform or maybe the Oireachtas services could consider, when running its events, hiring a disabled artist. That might also contribute to changing attitudes and education here in Leinster House.

Excellent.

I am sorry I was not here for the opening statements, but I did read them. I was at another meeting.

Has participation in cultural life moved on compared to what it was? Obviously there are barriers there. I ask the witnesses to talk about some of the barriers to people with disabilities being able to participate in cultural life.

The Arts Council started disability equality workshops started in the nineties. One of the biggest disability arts conferences had 300 people. We had cabarets. In some ways there were a lot more activities in the nineties than there are now, although in the past few years there is a growing recognition of disability arts. The issue is not to think that in the past there was nothing. There was quite a healthy cabaret scene in disabled arts. Fortunately, because DPOs only exist since 2018, there is still time to get that recognition. The arts are still trying to catch up.

In terms of the Art Council’s work with local authorities and disability groups, is there a collaboration?

Absolutely. Very recently, we celebrated our 40 years partnership with local government. We have had a long-term evolving, developing conversation with it on greater participation of the arts, and what that looked like 40, 30 and 20 years ago. It is constantly changing. Ireland is a very different place now in terms of a growing, more diverse population. The challenges we face in growing participation in the arts are constantly evolving in that sense. Our most recent survey, conducted by Ipsos B and A, around the sentiment in the arts shows a drop in the public's attitude that access to arts and culture is equitable to everybody. Only 12% thought that was the case. There is a drop in that and it is something we need to really think seriously about as to why that is happening when we think it is growing. We need to think about why we might see a drop in that way. Trends, of course, are important to know in those types of surveys as well. For instance, we saw different trends during Covid, etc.

In terms of broadening participation, there are some things that can really grasp public imagination. Culture Night is one of those things. For three years in a row, we have had more than a million people engaging with Culture Night in different ways; in person, online, and through broadcast, understanding that not everybody can get out and about for the night and there are different ways of engaging with it. It is great to see that increase in audiences who are disabled participating in culture night. We see an increase in participation from makers as well. However, it is always a journey. It is always something we have to keep going back to and revisiting, revising and reviewing.

Mr O'Reilly referred to when the stage is not accessible. Do public organisations ask the Arts Council’s opinion in terms of set design or designing the stage to make sure that it is accessible? Mr. O'Reilly referred to them following the guidelines, but the guidelines do not always fit the circumstances. Would it be quite common for organisations to reach out to the Art Council?

Not as such. We were doing the show in Galway in the Black Box Theatre and that is run and owned by Galway City Council. Fergal McGrath is the director of the Black Box Theatre and the Town Hall Theatre, which are then funded by Galway City Council. We found fantastic willingness and real support. For example, the theatre commissioned and built a new ramp. It hired accessible portaloos and allowed us to build pipe and drape temporary dressing rooms so that we could achieve access for our disabled audience members and our disabled performers. It is quite bespoke. Likewise, when we did the show in Backstage Theatre, it was willing to move heaven and earth to make the show accessible and the same with Civic and Glór in Ennis. Those were the four venues where we did the show. What we found in local authority venues was real willingness, desire and commitment to inclusion. They really put their money where their mouth was. They spent their money to bridge those gaps, and that was really impressive and heartening.

One of the paths to access funding was, because the show was on tour, I went down and gave disability equality workshops to the staff in the theatre. The staff were prepared for the actual gig. The Art Council’s access grant is very useful and flexible.

That is a great example of how leadership needs to come from the top down for change, because we can only advocate so much. It is up to the organisation if it wants to include us. If it wanted to, it would. That theatre built a ramp, whereas another organisation might say, with risk assessment it did not want to have to think about how to change something. That comes back to the arts. We are all overworked without enough capacity to do things.

Within the Art Council’s access supports, there was provision for modifications if needed. In that sense, there is an acknowledgement that they are just listening to what we are saying in respect of this might be needed. We do not know how accessible this venue will be. We will only find that out when we properly assess the venue.

When we did the show a second time, we anticipated that and planned a series of access audits to each venue in advance to confirm and find out what measures needed to be taken to modify and that all worked very well.

The response to access audits can vary, which we naturally do as we go along as disabled artists. I want to raise again that while it might be okay when you are an established artist and are working with big venues where the budgets are there, no artist starts at the top. We all have to learn our craft and pay our dues. There is something about incubator spaces where artists can try out their set. For disabled artists, that is very tricky because those are low pressure, low audience, low budget spaces and probably have really bad accessibility.

That is where some of our cultural institutions like the National Concert Hall could step in- because they are accessible - in providing those incubator spaces. Experiences with raising access vary. Often, if it is a smaller budget thing, the disabled artist bears the full emotional toll of trying to deal with leadership in the organisation.

Thank you.

In an awful lot of the meetings we have done in the recent past, there has been a point where the Venn diagram costs. If we talk about the stuff Ms Conway spoke about in particular, it is the cost of disability payment we do not have in general. However, it is also the fact we are talking about artists that are afraid of looking for the basic income for artists because of the impact it will have. Whether it is training, transport or even accommodation costs that are necessary, if they were to come into your bank account, they would be accepted as a net payment on the basis of salary, wages or profit - for want of a better term.

Everyone has talked about income disregard and the absolute fear people have of losing their medical cards. Whether we are talking about artists, sole traders or entrepreneurs, it is about the fact there is not a wage subsidy scheme system. While we have also heard the wage subsidy scheme is not working for the employers as it should, there is less engagement and it is not working as it should for employees. On some level, this is not a question because I am fairly sure most people around this room are going to agree we need to review it as quickly as possible and we need to engage with those that use it and need it. We then come up with a system that has an element of flexibility and works for people. In particular, if we are talking about the specifics regarding artists, it should be that they can earn and are not worried about losing a medical card or losing that payment. The social protection trap exists for many people. It is the fact you can lose everything almost straight away and even if you go back into those circumstances again, you might not get your disability allowance as easily as you did previously and "easy" is probably the wrong word. Someone might comment on that.

The other thing relates to what Mr. Farrell said - and I am talking specifically about those who can see - if you can see it, you can be it. It is that idea of whether we are talking about artists, sports people or whatever - the disabled - it is about how you rectify and circle that square. Particularly with film, I always would have looked at Daniel Day-Lewis and said he was absolutely fabulous in "My Left Foot", but now I have to look at it differently. I do not think we can take away from Daniel Day-Lewis being a fabulous artist, but it is about how you fulfil that part. I accept Hollywood will also look at times to put in big artists but I suppose the idea is that we eventually get to a place where a disabled artist fits into that element of criteria.

As per usual, I have spent far too much time talking.

What is the Deputy's question?

The first is whether the witnesses will comment specifically on that idea of payments and the second relates to artists and the Daniel Day-Lewis question.

Indecon says the cost is between €10,000 and €12,000 and that was before the cost-of-living crisis, so it is more. It also indicated there was unmet need. That is the cost and impact of having a disability that does not go away 24-7, as long as we are taking that away from people. We must be aware that in the arts, it is competitive all the time. It is not like another career, where you get to a point where you relax and gradually move forward. You are only as good as your last gig. In the arts, excellence does not cut it; you have got to be original. That gets tiring as you get older, whereas in other jobs you do not.

There is a competitiveness there to not only be competitively talented, but competitively healthy. The idea that we take people's disability support away when they have won this competition for work is ridiculous and debilitating. There will not be disabled artists as long as we do that and as long as we are taking the medical card away. It is unsafe and unsustainable. That needs to change.

We need a cost of disability payment, a scheme for the disabled self-employed, an income disregard - call it what you will. The Department of social welfare could also be trained to understand how arts income works, so that it stops penalising people.

We have to overhaul it.

When we are not enabled to create at a high level, in screenwriting for example, this then impacts who is cast in the film and what stereotypes are reproduced. For disabled women on film, there are many narratives around victimhood and sacrifice and emotional struggles, with examples like "Million Dollar Baby", "Frida", "Temple Grandin" and "Girl, Interrupted." They are not positive representations, whereas maybe for disabled men on film, they are slightly more positive. It feels like there is an overcoming narrative but for women, we do not get that. We just have to suffer away.

I actually auditioned for young Christy Brown in "My Left Foot". I did not know - I was 16 - and I was in Ballymun Comprehensive, which was a school that had disabled kids. One day, I was brought out of class and taken to the basketball court. I had long hair because I thought it was cool. These two guys got me to sit in a wheelchair, take my shoes off, tie them to my left foot and to read a script. At that age - 15, 16 years of age - I was into theatre and drama, so I could read the script. They said, "Ah yeah, Peter, you're great. Will you play young Christy Brown?" and my answer was, "feck off." As a teenager, I did not want to be seen as disabled. I saw no positive characters on screen or on stage. We need to make characters, especially for young disabled actors.

Also, they could say - as Mr. O'Reilly said and as I understand it - from now on, any disabled character has to be played by a disabled actor. It is not just about equality, it is about the aesthetic of the work as well.

I thank Mr. Kearns for that. Has anybody else indicated to respond?

I have a small comment or reflection on the effects of what the Deputy has said on representation and if you cannot see it, you cannot be it. We funded Blue Teapot Theatre Company about eight years ago to do a production of "Dancing at Lughnasa", by Brian Friel. The character "Rose" in that production is a disabled character. Blue Teapot cast a disabled actor into that role. For us, that was a game-changer and it should have been the case - and I could stand corrected - but since then, I do not think "Dancing at Lughnasa" has been performed with a disabled actor in that role.

Are we talking about outlier events and how we need to make it more normal?

Even when you do see it, it is whether the seeing is affecting change.

It seems like a once-off. It is like when they did Hamlet with disabled actors, it was like, "Oh, that's done now."

Yes, they move on.

I just want to quibble with "if you can see it, you can be it." All of us are here today as disabled artists and there was nobody who showed us.

We had no role models. We just did it. Within disability, we are doing it without seeing it.

I get that. That is outlier action but we have to make it easier. We do not need everybody to be super-advocates like the witnesses. Many congratulations to them.

The Deputy is four minutes over time.

Not quite. I have another 15 seconds. I am also late for the next place I have to be so I need to run.

That concludes our discussion. I thank everybody for attending today's meeting, especially on International Day of Persons with Disabilities, and for their insightful contributions on improving participation by people with disabilities in all aspects of cultural life, in the provision of arts and music or as a spectator. I propose that we publish all the opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.