I am delighted to open the ninth public meeting of the committee and our third module on education, youth and prevention. In today's meeting, we will be discussing youth harm reduction, prevention and diversion.

I welcome Mr. John FitzGerald, area manager of Dublin city; and Mr. Darren Shanahan, senior youth officer, drug prevention and education initiative from Foróige; Ms Margaret Flanagan, manager, and Ms Christina Fogarty, CEO, both from Waterford & South Tipperary Community Youth Service representing Youth Work Ireland; and Ms Jenny Courtney, chief executive officer, and Mr. Dwyane Horace, senior project worker, from the Diamond Project. They are all incredibly welcome.

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask that members participating via Microsoft Teams confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution to the meeting.

I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements to the committee and following that I will call on members to put their questions to the witnesses. All opening statements have been circulated to the members and will be published on the Oireachtas website after this session. As agreed, we will limit each opening statement to five minutes to allow plenty of time for questions and answers. I am conscious that a wide range of issues will be subject to discussion today. If necessary, further and more detailed information on certain issues can be circulated through the clerk to the members. I should also mention that members will be in and out of the committee meeting because they will be required in either the Seanad or Dáil at different times.

I invite Mr. Shanahan to deliver his opening statement on behalf of Foróige. He is very welcome.

I thank the Chairperson and members of the committee for inviting Foróige to discuss youth harm reduction, prevention and diversion. This statement highlights the essential role of youth work in drug prevention and education, drawing on our extensive experience.

Foróige works with over 50,000 young people annually through volunteer-led clubs and targeted youth projects and services. Our purpose is to engage young people in their own development and the development of society by building confidence, strengthening life skills and supporting them to make informed life choices.

Our non-formal education programmes align with goal 1 of the national drugs strategy, which is to promote and protect health and well-being; outcome 1 of the Young Ireland policy framework, which is active and healthy, and outcome 3, which is safe and protected from harm. Substance use is also recognised in the youth justice strategy as a significant risk factor for offending behaviour.

Our approach to prevention is grounded in Bronfenbrenner's ecological systems theory, recognising that substance use is influenced by multiple environments such as a person’s home life, their friends and social norms. Youth work is uniquely positioned, operating across several layers to strengthen protective factors. The trusting, sustained relationship with a youth worker creates a safe space for young people to explore issues and practise making healthy, informed decisions. This vital partnership allows us to observe and recognise changes related to risky behaviours, enabling appropriate needs-based prevention in collaboration with a young person.

An effective approach to prevention starts with the belief that every young person has the right to thrive by ensuring policies, practices and programmes are grounded in evidence. Prevention science helps us to understand the bigger picture of a young person’s life, considering risk factors such as low parental supervision or lack of safe spaces, and nurturing the protective factors that help them develop, such as positive relationships with their peers and family, and strong self-esteem. This approach matters for all young people and youth work is perfectly placed to nurture these protective factors. Risk and protective factors exist for all young people, though some, like those in rural communities or living in disadvantaged areas, may face unique challenges such as fewer recreational opportunities and reduced access to services.

Our interventions are guided by the prevention continuum to ensure our efforts are appropriately targeted. Universal prevention targets a whole group of people without needing to take into account any specific risks. Selective prevention targets higher than average risk subgroups to strengthen protective factors and address some of the risk factors. Indicated prevention targets young people engaged in early, non-problematic substance use to reduce further issues developing.

Substance use trends show that the average age of first use for cannabis and nicotine is 14 years old, followed closely by alcohol at 15. Early engagement increases the likelihood of problematic use, underscoring the importance of universal prevention in early adolescence within both school and community-based youth work. Prevention work is vital before common substances like alcohol, cannabis and vapes are on young people’s radar.

It is important to distinguish between drug prevention, namely, the proactive goal of reducing or delaying substance use that includes promoting health and well-being, life skills training and strengthening protective factors and drug education, which provides factual and accurate information about drugs and dispelling myths. Effective prevention equips young people with the knowledge, skills and confidence to choose not to use drugs or to reduce their use. Youth work creates a safe, non-judgmental environment for young people to participate in drug education, discuss their beliefs, engage in life skills training and develop coping strategies for risky situations.

Best practice adopts an holistic, health-led approach focused on youth development and empowerment. Key principles ensure good quality prevention programmes are multi-component, skills-based, participatory and developmentally appropriate and focus on both drug prevention and drug education. The European Prevention Curriculum advocates for effective, evidence-based prevention, emphasising environmental protective factors, including safe and welcoming spaces like youth and community centres.

In conclusion, youth work provides a crucial framework for effective substance use prevention through an holistic and integrated approach. By integrating evidence-based educational materials with a strong focus on personal and social skills development, youth work maximises its impact. The development of skills like critical thinking, communication and emotional regulation occurs within the context of a supportive, non-judgmental and sustained relationship with a trained youth worker. By equipping young people with resilience and strong life skills, youth work empowers them to make healthier choices and realise their full potential as confident and engaged citizens.

I again thank the committee for inviting Foróige to share our experience and we welcome any further questions.

I am presenting here today on behalf of Youth Work Ireland, which is a federation of 20 member youth services and a national office. We work together to support, empower, inspire, and educate young people through the delivery of best practice youth work services across the country. Youth Work Ireland is currently leading on the youth work for all campaign, which asserts the right of all young people in Ireland, no matter who they are or where they are from to have access to a support or service in their own community.

I work with one of the member services, Waterford & South Tipperary Community Youth Service and have been involved there for over 35 years. I started as a young person engaging in a community youth project, then as a young volunteer, an adult volunteer, a paid community youth worker and now I am a manager of drugs and allied services within our youth service.

Young people's involvement in substance misuse varies. It can affect people from all communities but in very different ways. In 2025, the majority of people accessing substance misuse services and treatment centres were predominantly there for issues associated with problematic alcohol use, with cocaine being the second most common cause for referral. There has been a significant shift in understanding in State agencies when it comes to the issue of substance misuse. In Ireland, funding for substance misuse services developed in a very fragmented way and operated mostly in silos. Statutory agencies are now beginning to realise this is not the most effective way to support people and to effectively respond to emerging needs.

Youth work works. Within a youth work context, we believe that some young people are more adversely affected by the inequalities that exist in society. They do not have the same resources, supports and opportunities available to them as other young people. They may also live in communities that historically have been impacted by substance misuse and where people experience disadvantage and marginalisation. This can deeply impact young people's developing sense of self and their capacity to believe that they deserve the best in life. In an ideal world, those young people would be involved in youth work where they would be supported and encouraged to grow up believing anything is possible. Hopefully, with the new youth work for all campaign we will secure the additional resources to make this a reality for all young people across the island.

Youth work takes place in open-access facilities and settings in which young people choose to be involved. It offers informal educational opportunities starting from where young people's concerns and interests lie. It works through their peer networks and wider shared identities. It gives value and attention to their here and now, as well as to their transitions. It seeks to tip the balance of power in young people's favour. It seeks to develop mutually respectful and trusting personal relationships among young people and between the young persons and adults involved. It recognises the significance of the workers themselves, their room for autonomy and their ability to fashion an improvised yet rehearsed practice. They are the cornerstones of youth work from the In Defence of Youth Work campaign.

Meaningful and trusting relationships alongside a true partnership-based approach have always underpinned good youth work practice. Staff work in real partnership with young people, families and communities to effect change. That is a core principle of the work. We adhere to practices that are rooted in community development principles and involve local people as volunteers in design and delivery. We work in partnership with young people to co-create and co-design meaningful and impactful programmes. We tailor our response based on the needs, interests and stage of development of the young people involved. We invest in our local communities and we support capacity-building and involve people in all important decision-making processes.

Youth work has played a key role in supporting young people at risk of or involved in substance misuse. It is impossible to document and quantify the hundreds of thousands of young people who did not end up in problematic substance misuse because of the critical interventions of youth workers. How can we possibly prove a negative? This is indicative of a sector that has been severely underfunded for many years, so it is impossible for organisations to invest in social research studies to gather the ample evidence across youth work services.

Our integrated service model is a thoughtful and considered approach that incorporates UBU, which are community-based youth projects, youth diversion projects, outreach and community-based drug initiatives, mainstream youth clubs, LGBT+ supports and youth information. This wraparound model has proven very successful in supporting young people, their families and communities over 20 years.

Youth work has always put young people at the centre. We begin where they are at and we involve community members. We are needs-driven and strengths-based, young person-led and we fully accept people as they are. That creates a sense of real belonging and ownership within our services. We value young people, believe in their potential and actively involve them at all levels. This wraparound model needs further investment and expansion to ensure young people who wish to access supports and opportunities through their local youth service can do so.

While there will always be a need for targeted interventions with particular young people who may be deemed more at risk, in this case, young people involved in substance misuse, youth work is a practice that is inclusive, open to all and one of the most effective preventative measures available not only to support young people but to enable them to flourish and reach their full potential.

What is unique about youth work is in its "central meanings ... located in the secondary and supplementary aspects of the project, in its accidental moments and in its emotional outcomes" and that the "critical interventions of youth workers can make a mundane nothingness into something extraordinary". They are not my words but those of Jean Spence.

In order to be able to achieve the above, youth work requires more investment. Youth work includes a sophisticated practice, usually honed over years of on-the-ground experience, usually led by workers who have been supported to progress through projects and return as qualified practitioners. They never forget their roots. They believe in the goodness of young people. They believe in volunteers being an integral part of all they do. They instinctively work collaboratively and in partnership with young people, communities and voluntary and statutory organisations. Youth work is not something "done to" but rather something "with" young people where caring adults work together with young people on things that are important in their lives, providing protective factors like safe spaces, supportive relationships with one, or more than one, good adult in their own community and ultimately creating better outcomes for all involved.

On behalf of Youth Work Ireland and our member services, I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it on this critical issue. We wish members well in their work. We are available to assist them in any way we can to ensure that youth work plays its part in the national response to substance misuse.

I thank Ms Flanagan. The next contributor is Ms Courtney on behalf of the Diamond Project. She is very welcome.

I sincerely thank the Chair and members of the committee for inviting us to this important discussion on youth harm reduction, prevention, and diversion. I am here on behalf of the Diamond Project, which was established in September 2024 and is hosted by Belvedere Youth Club. We are funded by the Probation Service to work with young people aged 12 to 24 from Dublin's north inner city who are already in or at significant risk of entering the justice system. The project was founded because it was clear that young people involved in high-risk, persistent offending require a far more specialised, intensive, and co-ordinated response. Offending is rarely about a single choice or moment, it is shaped by a web of complex, intergenerational, social, emotional, and environmental factors. Those complex factors demand a collaborative, multi-agency approach across both public and voluntary sectors.

At the heart of the Diamond Project's work is partnership. We collaborate daily with the young persons probation division, youth diversion projects, local gardaí, the courts, schools, youth addiction services, Oberstown Children Detention Campus and the Irish Prison Service. Our team consists of two senior project workers and a family therapist, working together through a multidisciplinary lens. Our approach blends youth justice practice with systemic family therapy, grounded in restorative practice and the trauma recovery model. Relationships are our starting point - building them, maintaining them, and repairing them. We work alongside young people in a supportive, non-judgmental way and an important part of our intervention is providing systemic therapeutic support. This means we look at the young person within the full context of their lives, their family dynamics, their wider environment, and the intergenerational patterns that influence offending, substance use, and vulnerability to harm. Family therapy often becomes the space where fractured relationships can begin to heal. From our vantage point, we see clearly the deep connection between offending behaviour and illegal drugs.

We work with children as young as 12 who have been groomed into drug distribution and criminal networks. Many start using drugs themselves at an early age, shaping their development, decision-making, and exposure to risk. Of the 27 young people currently engaged with the project, 12 have already been charged with drug-related offences. Twenty-one are known to be using illegal substances, with cannabis being the most common. Many began to use drugs in their early teens. Among the cases where referrers identified a likely link between substance use and offending, two thirds confirmed that the connection was clear.

A significant number of these young people are outside of mainstream education and have additional learning or developmental needs. Half of those aged between 12 and 18 that we work with have a confirmed or suspected learning or behavioural diagnosis, making them far more vulnerable to coercion, exploitation and harm. Many come from families still living with the trauma of previous decades of drug devastation, where grandparents may now be the primary caregivers. They have grown up in communities deeply affected by high-profile feuding, intimidation and violence. Some have relatives involved. Many have lived in the shadow of threats, grief and loss from a very young age.

The Diamond Project team actively participates in north-east inner city subgroups addressing child criminal exploitation, helping to highlight, and educate others about, the cycles of fear, manipulation and harm these young people endure. Our work aims to reduce, prevent and divert young people from further harm and reoffending. We use restorative practices to rebuild relationships with families, communities and positive networks, supported through community conferencing and structured family work. The trauma recovery model helps us identify each young person's developmental and safety needs, providing the right intervention at the right time.

We work across all levels of the justice system, inviting Garda JLOs into our space to issue cautions in a supportive environment, hosting probation meetings to reduce barriers to engagement, liaising with solicitors, judges and Garda case managers, and advocating for young people throughout the criminal justice process. Our tailored justice pathway has also led to a formal link programme with Oberstown. While detention can shield young people temporarily from exploitation, we know that without strong supports they return to the same pressures upon release. This is why, during their time in Oberstown, the Diamond Project engages with the young person, their family and community organisations to strengthen relationships and build a personalised support plan, ensuring that when they return to the community, robust protective factors are already in place.

We work closely with youth drug treatment services to support young people entering treatment and to continue supporting them through recovery, at a time when distancing themselves from harmful peer groups can be incredibly challenging. The Diamond Project helps them rebuild safer networks and pathways that offer real alternatives to drug-related crime, for example, when they are transitioning from the Oberstown or the Irish Prison Service. To some, these young people are seen as offenders, others see them as drug users, and others again recognise them as victims of criminal exploitation. At the Diamond Project, we see the full complexity of all these realities.

Our work is to understand each young person's intersecting vulnerabilities and strengths and to tailor emotional, practical and community-based supports, whether this is drug treatment, alternative education, family therapy or other interventions. Through restorative work we address the harm they have caused and the harm that has been inflicted on them by people far more powerful. We call for deeper collaboration and shared understanding across State and community bodies to ensure that young people, many criminalised while still children, are better protected from exploitation by the illegal drugs trade. I again thank the Chair and committee members for their commitment to hearing the experience of the Diamond Project and for creating a space where the voices of these young people can be understood, valued and acted upon.

I thank Ms Courtney for her opening statement. I will now hand over to members. The speaking rota was circulated in advance and each member has seven minutes for engagement. I call Deputy Ó Murchú, who is substituting for Deputy Devine.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe anseo inniu. Tá sé an-tábhachtach go mbeimid ag déileáil leis na cúrsaí seo maidir leis an óige agus leis na fadhbanna maidir le drugaí. I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. This follows on from an awful lot of the meetings we have held before. Unfortunately, it is almost a follow-on from other meetings that are happening, such as the children's committee dealing with child deprivation, and we can see where that Venn diagram intersects. What we really need to have a conversation about, as an awful lot of people such as the witnesses know, is the absolute need that is out there. We must find out the need that we have, the organisations that are working, what is working for them and what is not working for them due to a lack of resources, and then we resource them as best we can and fill the gaps. Then we might look then at getting somewhere.

I was very taken by a group from Archways. We are dealing with everything from breakfast clubs to early intervention, right through to youth diversion. Archways called it something else but it deals specifically with the Greentown project, which is about removing people from criminal enterprise and whatever else. It also said that for all the positives, it is dealing with the fourth generation of families. At some level there is a failure. No more than the witnesses, everyone will know what is needed. I imagine the work the witnesses do is utterly commendable but they can only be touching the surface of the problem and the need. I would like to hear from the witnesses about this.

I also get the idea that youth work in general is sometimes the intervention that nobody sees as an intervention. It is about making sure it happens and that the witnesses get to as many people as possible, particularly those who might avoid it. There are people who will join organisations and become involved and sometimes they do not need the same level of support. There are others whom we really need to find, or otherwise we as a society will pay for it, and they will also pay for it with their lives and how their families' lives continue. I am asking the impossible questions as to what is needed and where do we go. Perhaps the witnesses could get into an explanation of how they themselves operate because they seem to cover the whole gamut.

Are these questions for any particular witness?

We could start with the Diamond Project.

I thank the committee for inviting us here today. The Diamond Project was set up in September 2024 as a response to what was happening in the local area with young people and the levels of crime, and the severity of crime that young people were committing in the area. Every young person who attends our programme is engaged in the criminal justice system. We liaise-----

They are all referrals.

They are, yes. We are funded through probation and most of the young people we work with are high-level offenders. They possibly fell through the gaps of the youth diversion programme or they are non-engagers. Our referral system has two steering groups. We have a steering group for those aged between 12 and 18 years and a steering group for those aged between 18 and 24 years.

Is the Diamond Project getting in early enough even at 12 years?

Yes, at the moment we are over capacity and there is a need for more staff, especially in the area we work in. The Diamond Project is an innovative service. We are going to keep working at creating a starting point of being ahead of the game of what will be presented to us. We work with young people who, unfortunately, were exploited during the time of the feuds. They possibly had family members involved and they were young kids who were exploited and traumatised by what they saw on a daily basis during those times. We have a fair cohort of such young people on our programme. With that, we are diverting them and we are reducing the harms and repairing relationships. They are being, in a sense, saved when they engage and come into us.

With regard to the north-east inner city community, over recent weeks we have spoken about the golden mile, with Troy Parrott, Kellie Harrington and Wes Hoolahan who all came through the Belvedere Youth Club. The Diamond Project is about polishing up some of these young people and, hopefully-----

It is having successes.

We are, yes.

To go back to those aged between 12 and 18, I have seen youth diversion projects that are now able to take younger cohorts and they have seen success.

I agree. To clarify, Deputy Ó Murchú's question is whether children younger than 12 years of age are committing crimes and the answer is that they are. We should be meeting people at a younger age than 12. Unfortunately we see through our daily work. I have a young person at the moment in our mainstream project who is nine years of age. He is selling lollipops on Amiens Street to meet his needs. I am so worried about this young person. He is nine years of age. He is a definite target for the drug dealers on either end of that street.

I know we need far more holistic intervention with families, and it should be happening long before the witnesses are dealing with the children.

It is almost a failure when the witnesses catch-----

Exactly.

Hopefully they are pulling people back.

Deputy, I am just conscious of the time. Mr. FitzGerald, you want to come in as well.

I thank the Deputy for the important question he posed. To follow up on Ms Courtney's point about early intervention, the decision that has to be made by organisations and society is where the entry points are at which we want to make meaningful intervention. We really welcomed the youth justice strategy and the emphasis on looking at criminality and its roots and genesis for young people, as Ms Courtney described, from age eight on. The really important thing to remember with those projects is that sometimes what is required, whether in Ballyfermot or in Manorhamilton, is just for children to be children and for young people to be valued. They want to do Lego programmes, they want to go on summer programmes, they want to engage in fun activities. When we look at this matter, it is really important to recognise that it becomes harder the later you intervene. Mr. Shanahan spoke about the initiation age of 14 for cannabis. Sometimes it is eight in some projects and communities. It is about a tailor-made approach at the right time for the young people, and youth work can play a valuable role in that.

I call Senator Fitzpatrick.

I thank all the witnesses for being here. Most importantly, I thank them sincerely for the work they do. They are a great collection of people to have in at the one time because they all represent youth work and they all subscribe to the value that every young person should have the right to be themselves, to reach their full potential and to have access to a suitable youth space, a space that is safe for them, that meets their needs, that is not critical and that is supportive. Sadly, that is not the reality, as we know, for every child.

This committee is particularly interested in the area of drugs. The witnesses' organisations are kind of like the continuum of youth services in a general sense. A universal youth service meets young people who are not in a critical space per se but who need support that meets their needs at the time. Foróige is funded by the Department of justice. I love the name the Diamond because it is so positive. The Diamond engages with young people whom the rest of the world just does not want to know about, and that is the sad truth of it. The rest of the world has failed the young people who end up at the Diamond. The name is inspirational because it says something really positive and that the Diamond Project is there for them and will polish them up and help them shine. That is great, so well done to Ms Courtney and Mr. Horace.

Mr. FitzGerald and I have met before.

We have.

Was it when Foróige was launching the early intervention or early years project for eight-to-ten-year-olds? It is critical for not all but some very young children who are being exposed to things and experiences that are very unhealthy and are absolutely designed to stunt their growth and development and prevent them from leading healthy lives. Foróige works in a very programmed way. Foróige is, did Mr. FitzGerald say, 50,000 young people-----

Yes.

-----and 150 services? It is quite different from Belvedere, which is an independent youth service. Most of Foróige's youth services would be independent community youth services as well. Foróige, I think, will have a view on a programmatic approach and how programmes can be developed in a standardised way. Could Mr. FitzGerald talk to us about the programmes that have been most effective in teaching preventative strategies, that is, critical thinking, healthy choices, resilience and positive outcomes?

Certainly. I would be delighted to talk about that. As the Senator rightly said, we are a larger organisation. We are funded by the Department of justice as well as the Department of Education and Youth, Tusla and a number of other funders, so we have quite a few different strands to the organisation.

Our approach with Foróige is that, with every young person who comes in the door, whether it is through a volunteer or through a staff member or whatever other way they come into contact with us, we will always do a needs assessment to begin with. That includes what they are interested in, what their needs are and where the responsivity is as to where we can make an impact and create the conditions for that young person to be able to live a fulfilled life.

The Senator focused on the programmes. We have a number of really good evidence-based programmes, in the drugs field and in other fields, that are well positioned to be strengthened. It is about the things the Senator mentioned. There are young people's personal skills, their interpersonal skills, their critical thinking - all those things. One of our flagship programmes is Citizenship, whereby young people can engage in really showing their care for and their connection with their community and engage in a project that identifies a need locally and a response to that need. Then there is an evaluation as to whether that piece was effective. That could be anything, including a young person doing a fundraiser. In the north-east inner city a young person did a fundraiser to get bikes for the local project. It could be welcoming asylum seekers into a town where there may have been a bit of a kickback or something. The key thing about it is that the young people's voice, ownership and fingerprints are all over it from the start to the end and it is very much directed by young people. That is one of our evidence-based programmes.

For some other risky behaviours, we also have the REAL U programme, which relates to relationships and sexuality. That programme is a real complement to what is done in schools as regards SPHE. We do that in a non-formal setting where young people get to explore these topics with a staff member with whom they have a good relationship.

Then we have programmes that develop entrepreneurship and leadership, which are a key part of this.

The idea is that, wherever it happens in the country, the youth workers will fit this to the position of the young people or where they are at and what the need is locally. Some of these programmes will work equally well in inner-city Dublin or inner-city Cork or in a rural location. It is about pitching them at the right level.

Customising to the local environment.

The Senator mentioned the programmatic way of working. That is important but, also, young people come in and want to do skills-based programmes like barbering or want to learn how to fix bikes, do a car restoration programme or cook. We do all those things as well.

That is great. I thank Mr. FitzGerald.

I want to come back to the Diamond and Ms Courtney and Mr. Horace. The Diamond Project is a project within the Belvedere youth service running since September 2024, so only a year. It has two workers and a family therapist, which is great, but where is it getting support from to do the admin side of this documentation? It is doing something unique. There can be great learnings from it. I see it as a pilot that could be developed into a full-blown programme that could be replicated by Foróige and others. It is a method of working. Is the Diamond getting any support to document that? It has a lot to be doing just to do the work.

Yes. I will take that if that is okay. Obviously, the administration is extra administration for Belvedere. I was really invested when we submitted the expression of interest about the Diamond because it is the first time that it has been recognised that childhood trauma really plays a role in young people's offending behaviour. I was saying, "Listen, the community needs this." I am very invested. The Senator is right that it is a pilot programme, so we have to capture everything because the dream, the vision, is that there would be loads of Diamonds around Ireland.

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, however, at the moment it is just our CRM system, myself and the lads that are taking on all the administration. That takes away from the direct work because I am at the lads, the lads want to get more people in and I am saying, "Lads, we need to document everything." The administration is as important. Because we are a pilot, we really need to capture the learnings, the successes and the failures so we can learn from them. The Senator is right, and I am delighted she touched on the administration.

I call Deputy Ann Graves.

I thank all the witnesses for coming in and for their presentations and contributions.

Everyone's contributions are really important to us as a committee as we move ahead with our work. I will ask general questions and I do not mind who answers them because they are quite generic. Work with young people is so important. On the draft strategy, have any of the witnesses been involved in the drafting? Have they been consulted? What would they like to see as a priority in the strategy that would meet the needs of young people?

A couple of the witnesses have mentioned the consumption of alcohol, the link to drugs and how it is younger people who are getting involved. How do we tackle that when it is so normalised? When it is a generational thing, how do we break that cycle?

One thing that has come up a lot in earlier meetings and meetings I have had with service providers is the increase in drug-related intimidation. Normally we deal with it at an older age but it is getting younger and younger. What do we do? When we are dealing with young people, in particular, it is a different model.

Finally, what can we do as a committee to support young people who have had adverse childhood experiences? Whoever wants to can answer but I would like to hear from everyone at some stage.

A multidisciplinary approach is needed. One size will not fit all in this issue. There is a role for different organisations and different approaches at different levels because there needs to be significant investment for younger years because prevention is better than cure. We all know this. The Diamond Project is at the further end of trying to pull people back. More mainstream youth work has a more supportive, protective factor but we do have specific interventions targeting young people who are heavily involved in substance misuse. We need to look after them in a different way too.

I am concerned about early intervention for eight- to 11-year-olds as part of the youth justice strategy. It is in response to a need on the ground, for sure, but we need to be very careful about criminalising young children ourselves. These are children. Other responses are needed in that category. Among six- to 11-year-olds there is a gap where there needs to be significant investment in preventative and supportive measures. It is that wraparound service we have in our own youth service and within Youth Work Ireland. We started off with community youth projects and then expanded into youth justice projects, drugs projects, LGBT-specific projects and youth information because we recognise that in particular communities, especially those that experience disadvantage and marginalisation, there needs to be more than one response and we need to respond to young people, their families and communities to really tackle this very difficult issue that is having a significant impact on young people’s lives. We have to balance putting in the specific supports while not pigeonholing children who are aged eight into certain categories. We need to be really careful with that.

One thing our organisation does is we invest in the local community. For example, in Waterford, we have invested in facilities in 16 areas. We have our own purpose-built youth centres. That is to show we are there for the long haul. We work with volunteers, parents, young people who are volunteers, etc., and we build something in terms of community development in the area to respond to young people’s needs. We were doing work with young people aged seven until the UBU scheme came in. The UBU scheme is great but it took away the age group from seven up that we were able to work with. The youth justice side is now taking that up again but we had an open door for those young people to come in and we were building relationships with them over the long term. That is missing now. As an investment, that is something that would build a foundation and copper-fasten it.

I am 40 years in the business. The first young person group I was in had a young person with a baby on her hip. She now has great grandchildren. Her family come in to our services. Some of them might fall by the wayside for a while but they come back around. It might be to do a CV or because something has happened. They might have got involved in drugs or whatever and they come back in looking for that help. A long-term sustained service is what is needed and you need to start early. We cannot have children outside the door who are not able to come in because we are not allowed to focus on them. We have to be able to reach those. We have to be able to reach generations in families.

Foróige has attended the consultations for the national drugs strategy with the Department of Health earlier this year, I think. It is really important that we feed into those consultations when we can. We would like to see prevention strengthened in the strategy. Hopefully we have demonstrated the importance of youth work. It is difficult to measure prevention sometimes but we can look at what some of those risk and protective factors are. It can be difficult to say a prevention intervention has worked but we do not want to leave it too late. If we start to strengthen prevention now so that we can prevent those future problems further down the line, it will save the State money by investing in those programmes. Mr. FitzGerald touched on some of the programmes a little but particularly drug-specific programmes that look at those life skills of young people and putting the pieces together, like the brief intervention programmes where young people are experiencing substance misuse issues. We need to strengthen those.

Alcohol and the relationship with other illicit drugs was mentioned. It is really important that we start the conversation that alcohol is a drug. We have a really normalised relationship and a difficult relationship with alcohol in this country. We have difficulties, particularly when we deliver training, when we say alcohol is a drug. People are often shocked to hear that. Even in the early stages, starting that conversation that alcohol does get included in the new national drug strategy and that it is named as a drug is important, so that we are not differentiating between drugs as we go forward. It does present harms to society as well and particularly to young people at early use.

Senator Ní Chuilinn is next.

I thank everyone for coming in. I will pick up on Mr. Shanahan’s point about alcohol being a drug. It is really important that members remember that in our committee's report. We were discussing many of these issues yesterday in the Seanad in relation to the Mental Health Bill. Again, I found myself clarifying that in the Chamber. We have to remember that we cannot leave alcohol outside of that conversation. It is a drug and it is one of the most potent ones.

I am sorry I was late. I was elsewhere but I was listening to the opening statements so I thank the witness for that. I have loads of questions but I know I have to streamline everything.

I will start with something Ms Fogarty picked up on in relation to working with children. It is very stark when you talk about working with nine-year-olds and needing to work with six-year-olds. That is heart breaking. It is hard to listen to but it is the reality and the sooner we engage with young people from a prevention point of view the better. Are there any barriers we can help break down? Is there any reasons why the youth service is not being allowed engage with young people? Take the nine-year-old Ms Courtney is worried about – is there anything in the way of allowing her to engage with the children that need to be engaged with?

The UBU criteria raised the age to 10 years. When it was a SPY project before that we were able to work with children from seven up. That meant we could open doors. There was no targeting of young people. It was about whoever lived in that community could access the service. It was an open door. You did not have to be in a particular target group or anything like that. Reducing the age or allowing flexibility to reduce that age would allow us to build the steps the whole way up.

Reduced even more?

Yes, I would say reduce it to seven because that is when summer programmes work, contact is made and you invite them in. Believe me, they were outside the door waiting to get in. They wanted to be in there. We do not need to target young people because they are a problem; we need to see them instead as having potential, as something bright and as people we want to build with. It is just a pity that flexibility was reduced. We love the UBU scheme and I am not criticising it. It is just that it took away that opportunity.

Yes, I think making sure we are looking at reducing the age should be noted as a recommendation.

The Diamond Project sounds amazing and is really important. It is really a shame that we need it. Ms Courtney said it is a pilot programme and not in place for very long. What is the lifetime and expectation? Pilots obviously have a lifespan. What is the next step and how can we offer support to ensure this is not just a pilot and that the programme is rolled out, not just in Belvedere but in other places? I am sure that something like the Diamond Project would be well received in parts of south counties Tipperary and Waterford. I am thinking of Carrick-on-Suir. What is the next step?

Before I answer that question, I would just like to follow on from what Ms Fogarty was saying about giving us spaces like this to share the challenges being faced and to look for the supports. The early intervention piece is key. Belvedere works. We want to try to keep our children as children and our young people as young people, and to keep them out of the Diamond Project. That is what we are trying to do, ultimately. Unfortunately, the Diamond Project is needed in communities around the country, including our community.

I am always fighting. In what our system delivers, we have an after-school and mainstream youth project and we are now hosting the Diamond justice project. Going back to that nine-year-old child I referenced earlier, we have a programme to work with seven- to nine-year-olds, but that is outside State funding. We do not get State funding to work with those seven- to nine-year-olds. Thankfully, we have got State funding through the north-east inner city, NEIC, initiative implementation board, but it is not mainstreamed. We are constantly out with corporates and philanthropic partners trying to raise money to work with this cohort of young people. Why can we not work with them? Why are we not getting State funding to work with these children and young people in the seven to nine age bracket? It is because we do not fit national policy. Our model of service provision does not fit national policy, so we cannot apply for the funding.

National policy states that to work with young people in the early years, from seven to nine years, a service has to be provided five days a week for four hours a day. Some of our young people bounce in and out every day. They want to bounce into a room. They probably want to play sports in the hall, go down and do their homework or have a meal. They are not all there every day, although some of them are. We cannot acquire State funding for that programme because we do not have that model. This means we then have the likes of that young boy I referenced, and the other young people referenced here today, falling through the gaps because there is no flexibility in national policy. This is something we need support with. We need to catch our young people earlier so they are not in the youth diversion programmes from a young age and are not going into the Diamond Project.

Coming back to the Diamond Project and what the committee can do to support us, it can give us opportunities in spaces like this to share the work being done and the need that is on the ground. We are going into our second year of funding now. The project is still relatively new and these things take time. We are looking at generations of, and the intergenerational affects from, perceptions, behaviours and trauma that we need to work with. One thing about the Diamond Project is the recognition that a systemic family therapist is needed in these projects to try to support the families to identify what is the root cause of the offending behaviour. It is trauma. It is, then, about creating more spaces like this and giving us the opportunities to speak. It is then up to the Departments to get behind us to do the work.

Ms Courtney is saying there needs to be a relaxing of the rules in policy around how we engage with those aged from seven to nine.

Yes.

It needs to be more flexible and I suppose more ad hoc. It is not like these children are robots. Like Ms Courtney said, they might want to bounce in and out.

Exactly. Yes, it is about flexibility. I have asked for this on so many occasions. I do not know how many. There needs to be flexibility. We want to keep our young people in the after-school programmes and youth services and out of the Diamond Project. Unfortunately, it is really at national level that this needs to be looked at.

I thank Ms Courtney. I think I am out of time. Will there be another round?

There will be another round. I thank the Senator. I call Deputy Burke.

I thank everyone for all the work they are doing. My own experience is that I worked with a project in Blackpool in Cork. We had 50 young people at any one time who had dropped out of school and we brought them into a training programme.

I want to talk about the Diamond Project and the young people it is dealing with. Regarding giving assistance, I know that in a lot of cases there is not support from home. In cases where a young person is not getting any real support from home, how is that worked through? There is also the question of moving these young people through and trying to get them into a more stable situation with their home life and future life expectations as well.

I thank the Deputy for the question. Our Diamond Project has a multisystemic family therapist. In some cases when the referral comes in, the parent will be the first person in the door, especially with the youth partnership projects, where the young people are under 18. The young person will then come in after that. In some cases, the young person will resist coming into the project. In those cases, we would target a piece of outreach street work with another service. We collaborate very much with other services in the area, that possibly have an established relationship with the individual and the family. We can work with the family in those cases. We work with the parents and the young person. The young person may sometimes be in detention or custody. As we said in the opening statement, I am currently working with three young people in the Oberstown facility. Those young people are always going to come into their appointments because they are in custody, so we can always meet them there. Great groundbreaking work is done out there. For instance, I have worked with a young person around anger management and self-care and well-being.

When progress has been made with young people and it becomes about moving them forward into a more stable situation, are there other organisations the Diamond Project can work with?

Yes. We liaise with the education welfare officers and with Intreo in the area as well to get these young people into proper facilitated training that will suit their needs. A lot of the young lads we work with tell us they want to do something with their hands. As Ms Courtney said, with a lot of them, we liaise quite closely with the Foróige Helping Agatha Youth, HAY, project in Summerhill. It offers barbering, bike-fixing and mechanic courses. I have also liaised with the Solas Project over in the south inner city, which has what is called the Yard programme. It has a programme where young people can go back into a workplace environment. The Yard programme specialises in woodturning and carpentry courses. Next week, it will be finishing up a 13-week course where a young lad from the Diamond Project availed of that programme. In his interview for that project, he spoke about his experience in the workshop while he was detained in Oberstown for one year. He felt that really helped him to get into that programme.

I was involved with the project I mentioned from a managerial point of view. I was on the management board. We had a choice of three courses, namely, catering, light engineering or woodwork. Most of these people would have been referred to us by the Garda. They would not necessarily have been involved in drugs, but they would have dropped out of school or have had no parental support. We took a group of people who had left us five years earlier and surveyed them to find out how they were doing. We found over 70% of them were in full-time employment. It is not possible for the Diamond Project to do that type of research at this stage. What additional supports would the Diamond Project need to progress the project being worked on now?

The support we need is more funding. A possible administrative piece was spoken about earlier. We are looking to connect and collaborate with different universities and research institutes so they can put the statistics together about the outcomes of the work the Diamond Project is doing. Funding would also be helpful for a building.

There has been talk about the Diamond Project. It is progressive and doing well. Do we need an extension on the Belvedere building now to facilitate the team? We have been invited to the Le Chéile mentoring programme in Limerick, which held a conference last year. We are looking to see the Diamond Project as a flagship justice programme that could be rolled out through community based organisations. We want to keep ahead of the times and be a good, positive intervention for these young people, who seem to be hard to reach and get in through the doors.

I will move to Foróige for a second. I was involved in the predecessor organisation of Foróige and served on a national executive a number of years ago so I am aware of the work it does. It has changed dramatically since the time I was involved. Foróige has been up and running for many years. Has it done any research about people who have left Foróige, for example in the past five years, who it started off with and made a huge amount of progress with, to know how they are now doing after having left youth services?

It is great to know there is some kind of connection with the organisation. I thank the Deputy. One of the things he is touching on is that sometimes to measure outcomes in a long-lasting way, that kind of longitudinal lens is needed on where someone has gone. Even anecdotally, it might be a case of people coming back to a youth worker in the community they have worked with and saying they are now working in a particular job or have these determinants of success in their lives that show a huge amount of progress was made. As an organisation, we measure the impact of youth work over a long period. We link with the University of Galway and lots of other institutions to try to measure some of those pieces. The important factor is the mapping of where young people are. There is also the challenge, when they go past children's services into adult services, of being able to-----

The reason I asked that question is that a lot of people are doing research in universities for their degree or master's courses. That is what I used. Someone was doing a master's degree and we gave that person a list of people who had been with us five years earlier. The only reason I am looking for that kind of research is to see how we can learn about improving the service and what can be added to it. That is important because, every year that goes by, there is a change in the pressures on young people and we need to be able to respond to that change.

The resourcing to have the space and expertise to do that work where those things are measured over a period is critical. We always attempt to ensure we have that research and evidence base and measure where people are, at the different points of entry into the organisation.

We will move to my questions now. My initial question is for all contributors. In the work they do, where there is an overlap between young people of any age and drugs, through exploitation, sale or substance misuse, how much of an overlap is there with neurodiversity in the people they work with?

I will come in on this. I thank the Deputy. There is a huge overlap. This was touched on earlier, but there is a disproportionate number of young people who present with dyspraxia, ADHD and various other forms or neurodiversity. The challenge is that very often it is detected extremely late or too late.

I thank Mr. FitzGerald. I want to sound that out, across all the different organisations.

I would not necessarily agree from our experience. What is interesting, however, is that there has been an explosion of people having diagnoses. That is the difference, rather than only people with diagnoses being led to involvement in substance misuse and such things. We find that adverse childhood experiences are a much more determining factor in whether people get involved, as is what wraparound supports they have or the lack thereof. A Deputy mentioned the drugs strategy earlier and looking at dual diagnosis. There is huge resistance to accessing treatment and allowing people to access treatment if they have a mental health difficulty, which might have started with an adverse childhood experience. There is a much bigger correlation between adverse childhood experiences and substance misuse. That is our experience.

We touched on this in our opening statement, because we see it across our services, but with the Diamond Project in particular, half of the 12- to 18-year-olds have a confirmed or suspected learning or behavioural diagnosis, which makes them far more vulnerable. Throughout the service, we looked at inclusion and we went on a journey with AsIAm, because we have a lot of children and young people who have official diagnoses. Some have not. Some parents are in denial. Some parents need a break and just put the children into the club for a place to be. It is about trying to meet those needs. What we have had to do with the Diamond Project team is look at specialised training for staff to support staff when working with children and young people so that we are inclusive.

What kind of specialised training is that?

We went on a journey with AsIAm to look at the whole organisation and all our services, putting different signage on the walls and aesthetics in the rooms, because we have some children and young people who come to the club who have to wear ear defenders and so on. Do we segregate them and put them in a group on their own? That is not being inclusive.

My next question is also a collective one. Through their work, do the witnesses see an overlap between children and young people of any age and being early school leavers? Is school completion 100%?

Sometimes we look at these behavioural issues in isolation or in silos. We look at drug use, early school leaving or teen pregnancy. We can move further upstream and begin to look at the predictors. For one person it might end in drug use, but another person might be an early school leaver. There are predictors earlier in a young person's life, such as adverse childhood experiences and poor parenting practices. There is commonality across a number of-----

How can we identify those predictors early? What could the committee recommend in its report for how to identify those predictors?

For us, it is in the relationships youth workers have. They see it in the relationships they build with young people when they start to have conversations and see whether there are changes in the young people's behaviour or perhaps issues in their home or community lives they can share with us. That only happens through the informal approach we have with young people or through their needs assessments. There are a few initiatives that look at identifying risk and protective factors through a service.

I apologise, I am very jumpy. Again, this is a collective question. What role does a suspension, exclusion or expulsion from school play in a young person's trajectory into drug exploitation or later into the prison system?

One of the biggest things we have seen in recent years is the reduced timetable for young people who prove to be problematic in mainstream education. Youth work has tried to provide additional supports, even schooling, within our services and buildings to try to offset that, so it is not another factor in someone going down the wrong road in life.

It would be remiss of me not to answer the previous question. One of the biggest predictive factors, and it has not been mentioned at all, is poverty. That is the predictive factor. I would hate for us to be in a position where we are judging young people or people's parenting skills or lack thereof. It is the poverty people are living in and the marginalisation and disadvantage communities have faced for generations. If you ask me what the predictive factor is, there you go, that is it.

Deputy Gannon asked about suspension, expulsion, and what else?

Suspension, expulsion, exclusion and reduced timetables.

We work collaboratively with the local community. I facilitate restorative circles on a monthly basis and bring teachers and home-school liaison officers into the circle with other professionals working in the life of a young person I am working with.

Over the summer, we had to have a multitude of collaborations with professionals to keep this young person off the streets and street corners. The aim was to get him back into school to start transition year in September. The funny thing is that when this young person went back into the school in September, the principal and deputy principal said he was just the same young person that was there the previous May, causing trouble and kicking up a fuss, and bringing God knows what threats or risks into the school. That was not the case so we had to advocate to the school on his behalf by saying, "This young man was in with me twice a day over June, July and August; and he was in with another service possibly twice or three times a day". Throughout these interventions, we look to keep the young person safe and educated and give them more opportunities going forward, especially in the community we work in.

With regard to early school leaving, being kicked out of school and school refusal are really big issues. We are lucky enough in our service to have a project - the XLC Project - which is a bit eccentric but is a youth work way of delivering education with young people. We have a lot of young people who are engaging in school refusal, have been expelled or excluded, or have had their timetable reduced to such an extent that it is really not viable for them. This project is having great success in enabling young people to get their junior and leaving certificates. It is possible to do it within our services because young people want to come in there. It would be a good way of supporting youth services. Things like iScoil work. Through our youth justice projects - I am sure it is the same with Foróige - we are working with young people to support them to get their education, etc. in that way. Youth services are very well placed to assist with that - not to deliver it on behalf of the State but to do our part in it.

I might follow up on that important point about youth work being well placed. I always say, as a word of caution, that it is about knowing our capabilities and expertise and ensuring the burden does not come too much on the youth work sector. Sometimes the correct thing as an organisation is to know the people within your community who are the experts. For example, someone might have a particular approach that your team cannot be supported on because of the strategic decisions or what the youth work methodologies are. It is about knowing your community. The heart of youth work is being able to know when is the time for the young person to come in to you, how they can engage with other people and when the dual working happens as well. That is critical.

When we are talking about drugs, it is vital that the witnesses feed in to us and then to the national drugs strategy. There are always two elements to that when you are talking about youth work. There is the impact that alcohol and drugs have in general and then, obviously, there are the very particular issues in disadvantaged areas. In fairness, Ms Flanagan can see what I was saying earlier about it being almost the same conversation. It is the same conversation and the biggest predictor is poverty. You will have a follow-on in regard to that intergenerational trauma and some more chaotic families than others. I am pretty sure the witnesses could all set out lists where, if we had all the resources in the world, we would put them in. We would end up spending a huge amount now and maybe not having to spend so much into the future. We could get people into education or whatever is necessary and into work, and just break that. We are a long way from there.

The witnesses have dealt with a fair amount of it. The big one is that we need the resources, the projects and the youth work that works alongside all the other projects, like the youth diversion probation services and all of that. We also need to catch the early stages. That was a piece that was said to me before around specialist public health nurses. Schools and early learning centres can also be that, and if we had a really perfect world we would put those services there. Even Tusla said that for all that it does not have, it can access mental health and addiction services properly. No one probably needs to give much of an answer, in a sense, other than that is the way it is.

I want to ask about the witnesses' engagement with other organisations. I get that they do not have enough and they need a whole pile of resources. I know how that works. I would have said that in relation to my own example of our son Turlough, who is autistic. I have often spoken about him having "moments". My wife does not necessarily think that is a great term. The school he was in was in a DEIS area, particularly in primary and then secondary. He is in a much better place now and it is an absolutely spectacular school. Part of that, I think, is that it is a school that was well used to dealing with issues where there were challenging behaviours and all the rest of it, and it was open to meeting someone halfway. One of the difficulties is that in schools in other places, it can depend on who the principal is or who the staff are. I have spoken for far too long. The witnesses might answer on that piece around dealing with the other agencies.

Collaboration is key. We need to look at our collective resources and share those resources to maximise the outcomes for our children and young people. We could sit here all day and say we all need additional funding, which we do, but there are other things we could be doing. It comes back to relationships. At the heart of the Diamond Project is collaboration and partnerships with other agencies. It is about bringing people together who have a relationship with these children and young people or their family members. It is about bringing them around the table, involving the child and young person and-----

Sometimes you have to fight your way in, if it is a school or whatever else. That is the bit that needs to be made easier.

Yes. It is hard, and it does depend on the principal. Going back to the child I referenced earlier today, we had a relationship with the school. As it was relationship-based, we could act with that young child really quickly and put in place what we call a meitheal programme for that young person to protect him. That is a collective of services around the table, and it was possible because of the relationship I had with the principal. It should not depend on that relationship. It is hard and challenging but the only way forward is to share resources to maximise outcomes.

I mentioned earlier that State agencies, historically, have worked in silos, and that has not worked. In general - I am making a sweeping generalisation - we have always worked collaboratively and in partnership with community and voluntary agencies. That is where you are going to see real change. Ms Courtney is right; at the moment it is very much based on, "If I have a good relationship with you, then we can access a service". It should be more standardised. There should be the resources in the State agencies, and it should be within their remit, to do that working in a real, genuine, collaborative partnership. That is where, I think, you are going to see sustained change over time.

If we are serious.

If we are serious, yes.

I thank the Deputy. Senator Fitzpatrick is still in the Seanad so Deputy Graves is next.

Very quickly, I want to acknowledge the comment about alcohol being included as a drug. I think it is something we should ask with regard to the strategy because it is not specifically included.

A question I asked the last time around, which we did not get to cover, was in relation to the growing incidence of drug-related intimidation and the fact that it is affecting even younger people. How do we deal with it? It is a very difficult thing. A number of people are coming to me now and I see that they are younger people. They were 20-somethings but they are definitely getting younger. How do we deal with it and how do you cope? It is younger people trying to deal with violence.

I will come in there. We look at it as part of a multiagency approach. The Diamond Project links in with different agencies, including State agencies, State bodies and other community factors. In a case where we are working with the young person, they do not see themselves as a victim of crimes. They think they have a great status out on the street, possibly delivering, distributing and being part of a larger criminal group. Unfortunately, a lot of those young people are also drug users. They are exploited by the whole trade itself. In some cases, their houses are being raided. They may come from a single-parent family and in some cases, you have criminal organisations who then look to take over the house. The parent might pop up town for two or three hours for a bit of Christmas shopping, during which time that house could be used for bagging up, distributing or possibly weighing a certain product to deliver it onto the street.

Before I worked in the Diamond Project, I worked in a drug treatment facility for 14 years. It was a community-based organisation. We did not have a lot of information or material to hand regarding drug-related intimidation. We had to go and look to the UK. There was a community-based organisation over there called Not in Our Community. Part of my role in the organisation I worked in previously was to go into schools, Youthreach centres and community training centres to deliver programmes to young people around grooming and child criminal exploitation.

We also work with a lot of young people who are intimidating their own parents because there is pressure on them from the street. The Diamond Project has a family multisystemic therapist, who works with parents. We also look to bring young people into it in some cases. For me, it is a multi-agency collaboration.

It is worth mentioning the DRIVE programme. It has been launched and we will see how it goes but it has a good bit of potential to provide supports and tackle the issue in an informal way. Through our family support groups, our service works directly with the young people involved in substance misuse and their family members. Our network of family support groups provides safe spaces for family members to talk. The uptick in that is huge across the region. It is serious and something that needs to be tackled. It is, however, something that is beyond what we could in a youth work setting other than ensuring that young people have the vital information to know that this is very serious once they cross the line. We offer support where we can and linking people in to the legal avenues available to them.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. First, I want to acknowledge the amazing work that Foróige does. I have witnessed the benefits at first hand. It is such a win when a child finds their purpose. Only positive things can happen. The witnesses spoke about things like woodturning and barbering courses. It is amazing when a young person finds a love for something and is then encouraged to pursue it. I have encountered some of Foróige's mentors. They let children develop at their own pace, but also flick switches inside them that give them an understanding of right from wrong and put them on a positive path. I had first-hand experience of that myself and I have a huge amount of respect for Foróige. I thank its representatives for the work they do for my community. The witnesses' organisations are all doing brilliant work, but I have personal experience of the work Foróige does.

Intergenerational trauma has been mentioned a lot. What barriers do the witnesses encounter from families when they try to work with kids? We want kids to be kids and to have the best possible start in life. Do the witnesses feel that, in certain circumstances, more damage is done to kids by leaving them in the environments they live in? The witnesses' organisations get them for a certain amount of time. They provide them with tools to live good lives, teach them skills to move forward in life and they may then return home to an environment that is counterproductive. Do the witnesses feel that in certain circumstance more damage is done by leaving young people in those environments?

We see issues related to intergenerational trauma all the time. This goes back to the heart of what we do, a young person may come into our service whose parent may also not have had the opportunity to do the things that children should do because of where they came from or the adversity they faced. It is critical that, where possible, the family is involved so that they come on the journey with the child. If they need additional supports, it is also about being able to signpost parents to the relevant services. In some instances, such as in youth justice projects, we have the capacity to work with the young person and the family. There is a holistic approach. There may be a family supporter worker and a youth justice worker, and there is an interplay between them as well. It is all too real. As the Senator said, during intensive interventions it is about increasing their exposure to the protective factors and developing great relationships. It can be a challenging situation because youth workers might only see a child for a short period every week and then they go home. There are all the challenges the Senator mentioned.

This is something that has come up a few times when I have talked to people on their doorsteps. What are the witnesses' thoughts on children with ADHD or autism who are in receipt of domiciliary care allowance getting disability allowance when they turn 16? I have spoken to a lot of parents who are worried that it is an opportunity for vulnerable people to be preyed on. The children have money to spend on drugs and they do not have the comprehension. When parents receive the money, they are able to use it for their children, but when children turn 16, they receive the payment. Do the witnesses find that it causes a lot of issues? Has it given kids more freedom? This was something that came up a lot when I was knocking on doors.

We have not found that locally. It is hard for people to get that payment. They are hopefully shepherded and helped by their families to look after it. The numbers of people involved in substance misuse versus the numbers who have access to that payment is very small.

During my daily work, I have encountered young people who looked to get on to disability allowance when they presented to a drug treatment facility . Being approved for the disability payment is a massive achievement on the street because people can get it paid into the bank when they are even abroad. People also get the free travel card. When young people, 18- to 24-year-olds, present to the Diamond Project, we challenge them to come off that payment. I know they can work while still receiving the payment if it contributes towards their rehabilitation. However, in some cases, there is a perception out on the street that if someone gets on the disability allowance that person will never come off it. That is limiting a young person's ambitions or capabilities. That is not what the Diamond Project is about. We challenge these perceptions daily. On most Fridays, we meet the 18- to 24-year-olds who are referred to us. We look to offer them new opportunities, such as new jobs or training. Some of that training would be therapeutic, such as working with horses, etc. A lot of young people perceive that payment as a good thing. There is a lot of toing and froing around that payment, especially the disability allowance.

I sometimes think that it is giving young people ownership of their finances too young. It is something that parents said to me on their doorsteps. I was interested to find out if they witnesses had come upon it. The witnesses are doing fantastic work. The crux of it all is to give children purpose. When they have purpose, they flourish, and the witnesses are playing a huge part in that.

I thank the witnesses for their patience. We had to go upstairs for a vote. I want to come to the witnesses from Foróige because I did not get a chance to talk to them earlier. I want to discuss the pro-social and preventative measures we can take. No more than Senator Costello, I am biased in favour of Foróige. When my husband was a youth worker, he used to run a drugs prevention and education programme in Blanchardstown. I know the kind of work Foróige does and the value it has.

I am a huge advocate for the mental and physical health benefits of sport, as well as the community and pro-social aspects.

Will the witnesses give us an idea of those kinds of programmes that are incorporating sport? The witnesses mentioned Kellie Harrington. For young people their heroes are, a lot of the time, sports stars. Involving them in pro-social activities like sport has the positive impact of preventative measures against getting into the wrong circles or the wrong way of life but it also has mental and physical benefits. What kind of work are the organisations doing and are they seeing the benefits of continuing that involvement of sport with drug prevention?

Sport is really important but for some of the young people we work with, sport may not be the choice they want to engage with. We would always encourage young people to participate in some sort of physical well-being. We have a health and well-being universal programme, Be Healthy, Be Happy, that we engage in with young people. Sometimes when we tell them that the area of health we will be looking at is around physical health some of them say they do not want to do sport and they kind of step away from it. So, we do it in other ways. For example, we have a walk and talk programme where we go out and about and we spend 20 minutes or half an hour walking with young people. There are other creative methodologies that have similar effects as sport on mental well-being. For young people we engage them in filmmaking programmes and arts programmes as well. There is something for everybody, whether it is sports or an alternative. It could be through drama too. We are still trying to support young people in their interests but we do not want to discourage those who are-----

I think the word "sport" can put a lot of people off, children and older people, everybody basically, if they do not have that competitive gene. People assume that sport is always competitive but it is absolutely not. I suppose it is about the movement piece and physical activity more so than sport.

Yes the physical activity.

Sometimes sport can equate with winning, and we know it is not all about that. Did Mr. FitzGerald want to come in here?

On the sports the Senator actually touched on the point I was going to make about winning. Sometimes we have to think about why young people drop out of sport. Is it body image? Is it the fact that it was an uber-competitive environment where they were told they needed to be playing for X team or Y team to be worthy or deemed worthy? We would often try to bring youth work methodologies into sport. We have done some programmes where we have used football as a kind of a tool to consider decision-making. We have good collaborations with some partners the UK with Queens Park Rangers Football Club. That is a brilliant initiative. With the sport thing it also creates those non-pressurised environments. We would do football leagues as well. In the north-east inner city we link in with Bohemians Football Club and with people who are community minded and really focused on young people. It is sport but it is also connection with the community. From my own time as youth justice worker I remember I was in the north-east inner city and when a young person said they were getting into boxing, which is obviously such a draw, then you know there will be discipline, decision-making, critical thinking, time management, impulse control and all of those key things, as well as physically moving the body, being fit and the serotonin going to the brain. The sweet spot is when we know the why behind the sport as well as actually them saying "I feel great because I have engaged", which is a huge protective factor against drugs. We know that.

On a broader level the definition of sport needs to be looked at. I always think that. Dancing, baton twirling and the acro that the young girls are doing now should all be classed as sport because the person is getting their serotonin. The physical health is obviously improving but the mood is as well. Does anyone else want to come in on that?

We work a lot through sport in terms of young people's development and young people's interests. Very often we have sport opportunities going on. There could be ten days of a particular sport or whatever. We also link in with the local sports clubs that young people were part of or dropped out from. We try to reintegrate them and we try to support that reintegration. We have working collaborations with the sports around summer programmes and things like that. We would use the facilities and reintroduce them to it.

As the lads were saying, we do a lot around the other alternative exercises like dance and all that. We are also trying to educate young people around functional exercise such as getting their steps in, walking to school instead of getting a lift, walking up and down the stairs, and things we do in our everyday life where we are not aware that we are actually up and active, so that young people are aware of that. Even if it is going for a walk with their friends instead of talking to them from their bedrooms while they are in their bedroom on the phone. We kind of get that going. I do believe that sport is really important.

We also work with young people around going to the gym, girls and young men as well. We have set up our first gym in one of our centres. We are trialling it there to see if it works. It is basic but everything is there that one would need for fitness and in trying to build muscle, which the boys are really interested in, but the girls are as well. We try to do that as well.

The drugs workers do education and awareness programmes with our local sports clubs. It is not only in terms of delivering drugs education. That is at a certain level but it is also about building the relationship and the connection so if someone develops an issue or they know someone in their family who already has an issue they have a name and a face now and a place to go. This is a critical part of making those links at community level and connections at community level. It is essential. Good youth workers work around a young person's timetable for sports because they are not able to move the timetable. We do that really well. We will move and adjust our group times and our programme times to ensure that consistency and that sustainability in their sport. It is really important.

We have talked a lot today about the real coalface of work that is going on in drug prevention and education but what is really important around that prevention piece is that we that we do not lose sight of sport and physical activity in the pro-social way of keeping kids away from that lifestyle.

That is really essential. On the part of the Belvedere Youth Club and the Diamond Project in the north inner city it is not just sports stars that came through their programmes. Movie stars such as Barry Keoghan and a whole range also came through.

That was something I was going to share and I was thinking "No I won't". Troy Parrott came through the club and he used to take penalties in the hall. When we were watching him on the telly I was wondering if he was thinking of the Belvo hall at all when he was taking his penalty. I was not in the Belvo at the time but I was told that Barry Keoghan actually started off in the sports hall and he was not very good so he was encouraged into the creative arts section where they did drama and dance. He actually did his first musical in Belvedere Youth Club. He had the role of Link Larkin in Hairspray. So, yes, it is different strokes for different folks.

Exactly. Every kid is not going to want to do the same type of activity but whatever they find to engage their minds and their bodies-----

And to support them in that and to nurture that.

Absolutely, yes, to nurture. That is the right word, "nurture". It is about nurturing them away from the other route.

I feel very privileged to work with a colleague, Bridie Flood, who played for the Irish international team. She is one of the first Irish women to have graced the grass at Wembley Stadium. She is a true asset for any young person coming through the door of the Belvedere Youth Club and into the Diamond Project for sports. We work with a lot of young people who, unfortunately due to their behaviour, we are advocating for them to get them back into a club. There may have been be word on the ground that the young person was involved in something at the weekend, or perhaps it was heard that such a thing happened in a community. We do not know if they have their place back on the team. That would be the 12-year-olds to 18-year-olds. With the 18-year-olds to 24-year-olds, for example, I worked with a young lad who played and he got trials for Oldham Football Club and he had played with Troy Parrott, so there are two sides of the spectrum there. When a young person comes in the door it is great to see them but I say to them that I hope they did not come here on their scooter as they should be walking and picking up their steps.

One hundred per cent.

The scooters mean they are lacking exercise and it is a sense of laziness for a lot of them too but that is another battle for another day.

They are all really lucky to have such great advocates in all of the groups. Again, thank you very much.

On that point, I thank all the witnesses from the bottom of my heart for all the expertise they have brought to the committee and for all they do as well. Thank you very much.