In advance of today's meeting, we have received apologies from Deputy Coppinger and Senator Nelson Murray. Everyone is very welcome. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing so we do not pick up on any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are either on silent mode or switched off entirely.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirements that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to this committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The item on the agenda for today's meeting is the educational needs of visually impaired students. On behalf of the committee, we warmly welcome the following witnesses from North and South today. Joining us are Ms Eithne Walsh, CEO of Féach, Ms Sara McCracken, CEO of Angel Eyes Northern Ireland, Dr. Patricia McCarthy, adjunct assistant professor of education at Trinity College Dublin, TCD, Mr. Peter Foley, second year financial studies student at the Chartered Insurance Institute, CII, Mr. Shane Earley, third year computer science student at Dublin City University, DCU, Ms Toni O'Dwyer, children and young person's services manager with Vision Ireland, and Ms Derval Healy, director of reading and learning with ChildVision.

I now call on the witnesses to make their opening statements in the following order. We will have Ms Walsh first. When she finishes, Ms McCracken will be followed by Dr. McCarthy, Mr. Foley, Mr. Earley, Ms O'Dwyer and Ms Healy. They will have five minutes each. The opening statements will then be followed by questions from the members of the committee. Today, each member will have a six-minute slot to ask questions. I call Ms Walsh.

I thank the Chairman very much for having us here today. I am CEO of Féach. Féach is a parent-led charity that supports parents and young people who are blind and visually impaired. We have been fighting for equality in education for our children for 35 years. I am also the mother of two young people who are blind, and they have navigated their way through the education system and into employment. We are here to build on the engagement with this committee in 2024, which was very fruitful. We will be highlighting a lot of the gaps that are in education at the moment, but we will also be highlighting some of the solutions. A lot of these fixes are being delivered today by the organisations sitting in front of the committee, but they are not embedded in our education system. We want to ensure that they become embedded in the education system and that the State takes responsibility for them. In that way, our children will receive an equitable education that they are entitled to under law and, more importantly, they can become the independent adults that they have the right to be.

Members will know from the Department of education being in here that there is a crisis of capacity. In Ireland, every visiting teacher will have between 85 and 95 pupils. Let us just put that into context. In England, it would be between 60 and 65, and they think that is horrendous. In France, it is 32 and in the United States, it is 25. When the Department officials appeared before the committee, they explained to all that when a visually impaired student is not in a State exam year or when he or she is not transitioning to post-primary, he or she will be lucky to get between one and three visits. No matter how good a visiting teacher is, he or she cannot give the support the schools need in that time. We believe that the silver bullet is not to triple the number of visiting teachers because that is actually too expensive. In a modern society where technology is changing all the time and the curriculum is changing all the time, we want a suite of services wrapped around their service to enable them to do the job they need to do and to give the expertise of parts of that job to other people.

If members want to know what the real issue is here, if we drill right down, the problem is that we have a skills gap and a training gap. We have a lot of these children - most of them, in fact - in mainstream education but we have teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs, who have no formal training trying to deal with them. How can a teacher teach the expanded skills that a child with visual impairment needs if he or she actually does not know what they are? How can an SNA support them in the technology they have to become independent if he or she does not know how the technology works and cannot troubleshoot it? How can students orientate themselves and be independent and fully integrated into school life if they receive absolutely no orientation and mobility training within the school day? How can they catch up with summer provision with all these catch-up skills if the people mandated to provide summer provision are the teachers and SNAs who have no training? Let us get to the nub of the problem, and that is the problem.

Organisations like us, the children and young person's team from Vision Ireland and ChildVision have been stepping into this gap for quite a while and filling those gaps. We have tried and tested them and they are all based on lived experience; that is fantastic. We started to work with Angel Eyes about two years ago and this is where we came to the committee's attention. We worked on a really interesting project between North and South. What was fascinating was that if we take students in the North and students in the South who are visually impaired - different jurisdictions, different education systems - they have the exact same problems. Parents told us that what they are missing is that schools do not understand the impact that visual impairment is having on their education and they do not have the training for it. Therefore, we set about combining resources between ourselves and doing a training programme for teachers and SNAs. Ms McCracken will talk about that.

The statistic I want to talk to the committee about is how we trained 84 teachers and SNAs in two years. We got 400 expressions of interest. The skill that parents are crying out for is the thing for which teachers and schools are looking. This is an ultimately fixable problem. All the organisations here today have been offering solutions. Vision Ireland provides a transition year, TY, programme to get a student ready for senior cycle and their entire education. It is doing that based on demand. It is also now providing a braille upskilling course to support the educators out there. We are, therefore, filling these gaps all the time. There is a summer provision problem, so ChildVision is actually running a pilot project this year to try to get those extra skills into those students with the skilled personnel it has.

I am not going to stay on much longer than this. What we are saying today is that we are not asking the Department to invent the wheel; we have the wheel. We are asking it to give us a road to put this wheel along to embed these policies within education and use the civic societies that are out there on the ground and combine that with the expertise in the Department of education, and we will be able to solve this. I thank the committee very much for giving me the platform to speak.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today. I am the founder of Angel Eyes NI. I am also a parent to three children, two of whom have a visual impairment. I set up the charity 19 years ago because there was such limited support for parents and children with a visual impairment, particularly around education. Angel Eyes NI today supports nearly 900 children and young people with visual impairment and their families across Northern Ireland. We provide education support, family services, youth services and continuing professional development, CPD, accredited training for professionals across health, education and other sectors. We are completely self-funded and we do not receive any Government funding to do the work we do.

What I want to speak to the committee today about is what works through the shared island project, which we delivered in partnership with Féach, and how it is being implemented across Northern Ireland. Our first project was in 2024 with Féach and it was designed to address a gap, which Ms Walsh referred to, in the form of a lack of training and confidence across the education workforce in supporting children with a visual impairment. There was not a lack of willingness to provide support for these children but the know-how was not there. As Ms Walsh said, we wanted to provide something so that we could design a programme that could be rolled out to schools and for our children, SNAs and classroom assistant teachers.

We wanted to extend it to school as a whole experience with all the professionals there, but the first year we specifically identified SNAs and classroom assistants and delivered workshops, including the Empatheyes CPD accredited VR training and two practical modules, one on assistive technology and the other on adapting learning resources. Participants developed a better understanding of their child's specific eye condition alongside other visual impairments, practical skills to use assistive technology effectively and the confidence to adapt the classroom materials independently. We showed them the why by showing them what visual impairment looked like, and then we showed them the how by giving them the strategies to deliver that. The workshops gave participants the understanding of how visual impairment impacts a child’s ability to access learning and the knowledge of practical day-to-day skills to support their pupils. We saw the impact of the training immediately, with 100% of participants reporting increased confidence, knowledge and understanding. The need was reflected in the lack of training, with 86% having never received any prior training before attending the workshop. All of them supported visually impaired children; that was part of the criteria for attending. This highlighted both the scale of the gap and how quickly it can be addressed with the right approach.

In year 2, we built on the success of year 1 and strengthened the model. We widened participation to include teachers and SENCOs along with the classroom assistants and SNAs. We also expanded the content, including specific training on supporting learners who use Braille, alongside the continued focus on assistive technology and inclusive classroom practice. The results again reflected the impact: 100% of participants reported increased understanding and confidence while 96% said the training would benefit other pupils, not just those with visual impairment. That was consistent. Training for children with visual impairment makes the classroom and learning more inclusive for those children and has an impact on other children in the classroom, for example, those who are neurodiverse and have processing disorders. For dyslexic children as well, it can be very useful. SNAs and classroom assistants recognised that instantly.

More importantly, we went back to the participants of the year 1 training and 100% of them were still applying their learning and said they were using it widely with other special educational needs pupils. Participants described the training as transformative. As one teacher said, “I now know my main priority in the classroom will be helping my student independently access the curriculum.” That is the key. Over- and under-support are equally damaging. This is about independence and giving them the skills to be employed in the future.

In Northern Ireland, we are now delivering the training in special schools that incorporates Empatheyes VR alongside the strategies. We are giving them the information and knowledge. We developed this training specifically for special educational needs schools, and 70% of those involved will have significant visual impairment. We developed this alongside our colleagues in the health trusts to ensure the clinical validation of it as well as the practical learning.

Last year with one cohort we delivered the training to 172 professionals trained across seven schools and 100% reported increased knowledge and confidence. More than that, we saw those changes being implemented instantly. Where visual impairment had not been considered generally across the school, that gave them a level of knowledge they had not previously had. In mainstream schools where we are delivering training on a charitable basis, an average of 75% of staff have never received training in visual impairment. All these schools are known to us because we are supporting children there who have a visual impairment. One hundred per cent report increased understanding and 100% say immersive VR enhances their learning and is relevant to their role. One participant in a mainstream school said, "It’s been so useful getting the chance to experience it from the pupil’s point of view ... it’s made me rethink how I support them in everyday tasks." We are also delivering our training to student teachers, which we think is really powerful and could provide learning for our future teachers. Last September we trained 144 student teachers and over 90% left with an excellent understanding of how to support a child with a visual impairment.

Across both jurisdictions, as Ms Walsh said, the message is consistent: there is a lack of training. When staff received good training, they changed what they do and this in turn improved access to education for children with visual impairment. Anecdotally, we have heard from our SNAs and classroom assistants that it improves the relationship with the pupil they support because the pupil feels better understood by the people supporting them.

Our work in the North shows this is a practical, cost-effective way to improve outcomes for children with a visual impairment. Through the shared island project, we have tested and evidenced an approach that builds confidence, knowledge and skills across the education workforce and supports children to access learning more effectively. Our recommendation is that this model be considered as part of a wider, system-level approach, embedding consistent, evidence-based training so that professionals feel equipped and confident in supporting children with visual impairment. When staff have the right understanding and tools, children are better supported and access to education becomes more consistent and equitable.

I thank the committee for inviting me here today. I am an adjunct assistant professor in the school of education in Trinity. As a vision-impaired academic, this is a topic I am very passionate about. I am undertaking research into the education experiences of blind and vision-impaired young people. I began in this area over 20 years ago when I commenced my PhD, so it is an area I have knowledge about.

There has been a history of exclusion and missed opportunities for many decades regarding blind and vision-impaired young people in education and employment. Unfortunately, my current research shows this continues to be the case because of a system which is preventing them from succeeding. While blind and vision-impaired young people have been educated in the mainstream school system for many decades, the challenge remains the need to change the system in order that they can succeed. Article 24 of the UNCRPD mandates Ireland to ensure inclusive, quality and free primary and secondary education for persons with disabilities within their own communities. To achieve this, they require reasonable accommodations and for appropriate supports to be provided to ensure their education and social development.

I will outline some preliminary findings from the research I am undertaking with colleagues in the school of education. It is looking at the education experiences of blind and vision-impaired young people. I will focus on some survey findings from educators and SNAs. This research also collected data from parents of blind and vision-impaired young people as well as some blind and vision-impaired pupils themselves, but this data will not be part of my contribution today.

I am looking at this under a number of headings, including training, challenges and solutions. Participants were asked a range of questions around training, including the following: have you received any formal training related to visual impairment during your initial teacher education or through postgraduate or continuous professional development? The other question was this: how often do you receive blind- or vision-impaired specific training? Of 16 teachers and other educators who responded, 14 responded "No" to the first question. They had never received training as part of their continuous professional development. Twelve responded "Never" to the second one relating to specific training, while four responded "Rarely". This demonstrates that there is a significant dearth of training available to or being offered to educators of our blind and vision-impaired young people.

When participants were asked how confident they are in adapting learning materials for pupils who are blind or vision-impaired, 11 responded either "somewhat not confident" or "extremely not confident". Again, this demonstrates that our young people are being let down by the current system through no fault of their own or, indeed, those who are trying to support them in our system.

When I spoke to the participants or they were asked the survey question around the challenges, when asked the question about the biggest challenge in their role of supporting blind or vision-impaired young people and whether there have been any challenges in getting the right supports for these students, the most common response was lack of training, which Ms Walsh and Ms McCracken spoke about, as well as lack of supports, not knowing what was available for the students and lack of access to professionals with knowledge of blind-vision impairment in a timely manner. The following statement was posed to participants: "In my experience, supports for pupils who are blind or vision impaired are put in place in a timely manner". The majority responded either "strongly disagree" or "disagree", with only one person saying that the supports were put in place in a timely manner.

On the solutions, when participants were asked, "What one change would make the biggest difference to you in supporting pupils who are blind or vision impaired?", the overwhelming response was training and greater collaboration with a range of professionals who have the required knowledge and experience to support both educators and the blind and vision-impaired pupils within the school system.

To go back to the UNCRPD, while we know that Ireland is mandated to ensure inclusive and quality education for all students who have a disability, unfortunately, my research demonstrates that this is not happening for this cohort of the population. As a vision-impaired person, this greatly saddens me. We know the solutions are there. They just need to be embedded within the system. We need everyone to work together to ensure that.

I thank the committee for having me here today. I am 21 years old and studying for a level 4 diploma in regulated financial planning with the Chartered Insurance Institute. I also work part-time at Greggs. I am here to talk about what it was like going through the education system in Northern Ireland with a visual impairment.

I attended a mainstream primary school and secondary school. Assistive technology was the single biggest factor in my independence. I became the first paperless pupil in Northern Ireland, using assistive technology to access all of my learning digitally instead of relying on printed materials. It made a huge difference to my independence because I could access work in real time alongside my classmates rather than waiting for adapted resources. It really was a game-changer for me. It highlights what is possible when the right technology is put in place, but it also highlighted the gaps, particularly the lack of training for teachers and support staff to use it effectively. Going paperless was not just about having technology. I also needed the support around me that understood how to use it properly so I could fully participate on an equal footing. That took years to achieve. Exam access was fine and the school planned for this years ahead. To access the exams equitably, I received extra time, papers adapted into large print, a clean iPad to access a copy of the exam paper electronically and a scribe, where needed.

What did not work? Lack of training across the system. Most of my teachers were not trained in visual impairment or assistive technology. Some tried their best, but without training they found the technology difficult, they were reluctant to change how they taught, and simple strategies and adjustments had to be repeated to them again and again.

On over-reliance on classroom assistants, I was assigned a classroom assistant who was not trained in assistive technology, although she did upskill herself in time. I had to sit beside them all day, every day. I did not like this. I do not have any additional needs, so all this did was marginalise me. I did not need my hand held; I just needed technology and a teacher who was willing to work with me. Having to sit beside an adult each day felt like a punishment. It was humiliating. It made me stand out as different. It affected my relationships with other pupils. I got teased about it and no one wanted to sit beside me because of this. It also reduced my independence.

On inconsistent and unequal access, I did not always receive resources at the same time as other students. If files had not been uploaded because there was a last-minute change, or it just had not been done, I had to wait and just listen rather than contribute. This made me feel excluded and different.

Regarding the qualified teacher for the visually impaired support, my experience was that support did not match my level of education, there was a focus on approaches that did not work for me, and I was being encouraged to use text sizes I could not read. I was never asked what worked best for me.

What would make a difference? Proper training for teachers and classroom assistants, access to assistive technology, existing support systems listening to the pupil about what works and reducing unnecessary dependency on adults in the classroom. The consistent strategies that can make a big difference in everyday access, and the teacher knowing this, include good contrast, appropriate lighting, larger text and avoiding poor-quality photocopies.

Assistive technology gave me independence. Removing constant adult support gave me confidence and helped me feel like everyone else. If the education system gets this right, pupils like me will not just get to go through school. We will have the independence we need to contribute, have a job and live independently.

I thank the committee for having me here. I am a third-year student in computer science in DCU. Today, I will be discussing my experiences as a blind student in the education system in the Republic of Ireland, what I found difficult and what I feel could be improved.

I attended both a mainstream primary and secondary school. During my education, I interacted with course content primarily through braille. Specifically, I made use of a braille notetaker, which is a small, portable tablet computer with a braille display and keyboard. I have one in front of me now. In addition, I received copies of my books both digitally, through the Online Bookshelf service, and physically, from the ChildVision library. These supports in the main worked when teachers engaged with them. When teachers sent me materials digitally, they were interpreted immediately into braille and displayed on my notetaker. In some cases, however, this ideal was not achieved. Some teachers forgot to prepare their materials digitally and instead handed out a printed handout. This led to my parents having to spend hours after a workday working on complicated maths and science homework with me. I really do not feel this was fair either to myself or my parents. Many subjects require specialised notations, which a non-subject matter expert may not recognise. A reader for these subjects needs a level of knowledge in the area to perform the role effectively. As my parents were not aware of the notations required, we often spent more time attempting to read the question than I actually spent attempting it. In addition, I always just felt bad taking so much of their free time to spend on my work.

I believe this issue stems from a lack of training in braille and the assistive technology I rely on. None of my teachers had ever taught a visually impaired student before and had no grounding in braille beyond common public perceptions. This gap in training placed a burden on me from the first day that carried throughout my education. As a result, I always had to be the one communicating with teachers and explaining my needs. Correcting an authority figure as a teenager is very hard. I had to balance communicating my needs clearly and firmly while remaining polite and not taking up too much class time. This was a responsibility that no student should have to carry and it was one I was expected to manage from the first day of first year.

This also came at a significant social cost. Teachers would call me out and ask, in the middle of class, what I needed and would conduct discussions about my requirements in front of the entire class. During my breaks, I was also expected to stay near an SNA. As a teenager, this felt like being singled out and it isolated me from my classmates. There were many days where I spoke more to teachers and SNAs than to any other student.

Accessing materials in the classroom also posed some significant difficulties.

The Braille books received from ChildVision were excellent, but they could often take a long time to arrive. For example, we ordered my maths book in transition year and I have a vivid memory of the final volume arriving on the day of my leaving cert examination.

When I was in transition year I had the opportunity to participate in the pilot year of the Vision Ireland TY Lens programme and found it an incredibly rewarding experience. I attended weekly sessions with other TY students with visual impairments. We learned important independent living skills for the transition to college such as advocating for ourselves, orientation and mobility and the use of assistive technology. We also engaged directly with businesses throughout Ireland. Several other students and I partnered with an accessibility consulting firm to deliver an accessibility awareness seminar to staff from Johnson and Johnson.

These sessions also provided something I had never had before: a community of peers who understood my experience. I was the only visually impaired student in my school. The only other student with a visual impairment in my area that I knew of was several years older and attended a completely different school. I had very little opportunity to interact with anyone who shared in the problems I faced every day and it often felt like I was completely alone. Talking with other students throughout the country who faced the exact same issues I did and who understood the stress I was under in a way no sighted friend could, had an impact that cannot be overstated. For the first time I had a place I could go to vent where everyone else was venting about the same things. That outlet had a profound benefit to my mental health going into what would be the most stressful part of my educational journey.

During the years since I participated in the programme it has been greatly improved. Having assisted in the programme's development by providing feedback on resources and attending sessions as a guest speaker, I have seen it develop into an invaluable resource for any transition year student. When I started college, getting used to the college platforms was a huge stress point. Submitting assignments and managing the more than 20 emails every day was difficult. It was one of the most challenging things I faced. This is now a part of the TY Lens programme, which will make a big difference for anyone starting out. Programmes like this that change as the student's needs change are what is needed to fill the gaps in school and prepare students for the next stage.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to come before the committee today. I am the manager of the children and young persons team of Vision Ireland. Our specialist team focuses on giving the skills to access information on safe travel, general independence and emotional and peer support, all with the aim of supporting inclusion and participation in all areas of life for students with vision impairment.

I am not here to criticise what has already been done in this area. However, as I have stated here before, we have many examples of students for whom participation in education has been a successful and positive experience. That has mainly been down to the great work of the visiting teachers, the class teachers, the resource teachers, the SNAs and the parents, as Shane outlined. We are also very much aware, because we work with students as they transition from secondary education, that there is a skills deficit and many of these students are transitioning from secondary education without the required skill set to make a transition in line with their peers. I absolutely concur with the statement by Ms Walsh that the problem is one of capacity of the existing resources within the formal system. We believe the best solution to this is to recognise the value of the not-for-profit sector and the recognition of what work has already been done. While we are engaged in a broad remit of support for students, I am going to outline some brief examples of ways in which we can work and create an ecosystem of support for these students for better outcomes.

As mentioned earlier, our transition programme, TY Lens, provides an individualised transition support programme to students transitioning to senior cycle to prepare them for further education and employment. It is delivered in partnership with the school, the SNA and students themselves with the aim that the students will gain the knowledge, skills and strategies to independently access information in a range of contexts, with a range of solutions. That is the key part of it. Independent travel skills and career education are other aspects covered in the programme. This programme not only gives the students the skills but it gives them ownership of their learning and addresses the issue of isolation, as outlined by Mr. Earley, providing the benefit of peers with shared experience. It is now in its sixth year and is an example of how intensive and individualised support can be delivered in preparation for successful transition. We in Vision Ireland have dedicated considerable resources to the development of this programme over those six years. One of our recommendations is to have the delivery and the scaling of this programme co-funded through the Department of Education and Youth.

Another area is Braille instruction. It has been mentioned previously. While mastering the skills of learning, Braille learners are the highest support-need students. While advancements in technology have increased access to Braille, it remains one of the more problematic areas for students and teachers. The lack of training for educators supporting students with vision impairment has already been articulated across the board. This is most significant for those who are supporting non-visual learners. As a solution to this, we have piloted a ten-week course, Braille in Education, to give educators the knowledge they require to support Braille learners. This is in huge demand. We already have a significant waiting list for this course for September.

In terms of orientation and mobility, the right to move safely and independently is a fundamental human right. However, children with vision impairment require specific instruction to gain the foundational concepts and the skills required to travel safely within their environment. While we support these skills from early years, we lack the resources to do it as intensively as necessary for students to be prepared for independent travel when they transition from second education. We are asking for the introduction of a dedicated resource to support the teaching of travel skills to children and young people, like the service in Cork and Waterford which has been funded by the Department of education for many years.

Although digital skills are evolving rapidly, technology alone does not create inclusion. Mainstream technology is also creating huge opportunities for students, giving them the ease and the discreetness that they desire, particularly for teenagers. What is missing is the understanding of accessibility requirements and the need for early digital skills. Lack of or reduced independent access to materials creates an unnecessary dependency on others for students to be able to engage in their own education. While we continue to support this, we also ask the Department to make this part of the digital strategy in the education framework under Digital Learning Europe, EDEN.

While accessible education has come a long way and great improvements have been made, it depends on an ecosystem of technology, accessible content, training and skills and support systems working together. Without this, students will not have the agency and independence necessary to shape their own futures.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to address the committee today. I am director of reading and learning at Child Vision. ChildVision is Ireland's recognised national provider of vision specialist supports. It is committed to continue its mission of improving the lives of children and young people with visual impairments throughout Ireland. I will bring to the attention of the committee four key areas. The first is around orientation and mobility, where there are noticeable gaps for students across their education.

ChildVision currently provides some orientation and mobility to students on campus in Dublin and Cork. However, there are gaps in orientation and mobility provision on a national basis. We need the following for orientation and mobility nationally. We need agreed standards for service provision, including qualification of professionals, assessment, intervention and a national roll-out. We also need a network of delivery, potentially through the visiting teacher service. ChildVision has a clinical governance structure in place and already has shared caseload management with visiting teachers and primary care teams nationally and, alongside other service providers, is ready and willing to engage in a universal provision for orientation and mobility in Ireland. Targeted orientation and mobility training would empower individuals to achieve their life goals for education, employment and independence. ChildVision would welcome the opportunity to establish a specific working group with key stakeholders to ensure orientation and mobility are at the forefront of the curriculum for visually impaired students.

The second area I would like to discuss is assistive technology. As we all know, technology is advancing rapidly within education and the needs of visually impaired students must be considered in the overall digital strategy. While ChildVision provides specially adapted digital books, it is essential that the professionals working with students have a good understanding of the assistive technology. Through corporate partnerships, ChildVision has opened an assistive technology lending library where students, parents, teachers and other professionals can trial assistive technology products before making costly purchases. This is only possible because of, and is heavily reliant on, our corporate donations. Digital skills are no longer a nice-to-have and we need to ensure that all our students have equal access to options and choice in terms of how they choose to study or access technology.

The third area I would like to raise is around Braille. It has always been a priority for ChildVision and remains that, as it is the basis for literacy and numeracy for many students with visual impairments. There is no substitute for the ability to read. For some of our students, Braille is an essential tool that aids in the process of becoming literate. It is a critical component that supports educational advancement, increases employment prospects and provides opportunities. Our reading services department transcribes educational material in Braille and alternative formats. The full curriculum is transcribed by our specialist staff. For our students to thrive, we need to ensure Braille supports are made widely available. That includes courses for sighted and tactile learners, Braille tuition and overall Braille awareness. ChildVision currently runs a learn Braille course for sighted learners and feels that a funded approach to this course could open it up to more teachers, SNAs, parents and anybody who support our students. If funding were secured, this course would serve as an excellent introduction to Braille for individuals supporting students. This course, alongside other specialised visual impairment courses, including courses identified by Féach, would ensure that professionals are given the tools to support students throughout their education.

As previously mentioned, since our last committee meeting we have engaged with stakeholders to develop a new summer programme within ChildVision. Offered in two-week blocks, the programme is a specialist, social care led respite provision, with some clinical inputs, for visually impaired young people, including a number with additional disabilities. It combines day and evening activities with an overnight residential provision. In providing this residential aspect, the programme is enabled to reach participants beyond the Dublin region and therefore deliver on its remit to be fully inclusive. At a previous committee meeting, we learned that supports are often Dublin-based so we felt it was important that this programme was fully inclusive. We have targeted 32 second level participants and have a full cohort already signed up, with a waiting list in place. Throughout the programme, the emphasis will be on fun, learning valuable skills, including a range of independent living skills, and on connecting socially. That social connection is key. We trust that this year’s summer programme will serve as the foundation for continued provision in the years to come.

ChildVision also continues its advocacy for fully customised and accessible State examinations. Engagement with the State Examinations Commission, SEC, has been extremely positive throughout 2025, and we welcome the opportunity to continue this collaboration in 2026 and into the future.

I re-emphasise to the committee that access to education for children and young people with visual impairments is achieved through planned, specialist and sustained investment. Our summer programme, Braille services, assistive technology and orientation and mobility are not optional supports but are fundamental to participation, independence and lifelong outcomes. ChildVision stands ready to work in partnership with the Department of education, the HSE and all other relevant stakeholders to develop consistent national approaches, agreed standards and equitable access to these essential services. At ChildVision, as with the other organisations here today, we have the expertise, governance structure and delivery expertise in place. What is now required is policy alignment, resourcing and shared commitment to ensure no child's potential is limited by geography or gaps in provision. I welcome the committee’s support in advancing these priorities and in ensuring that children and young people with visual impairments are fully included in Ireland's education system. I thank members for their attention and for the opportunity to raise these critical issues.

I thank Ms Healy and all the witnesses. We have another guest in the room who we have not seen yet, but people may get to see him before they leave. Dr. McCarthy has brought her beautiful dog, Buddy. He is a fabulous dog. I hope there are a few treats for him on the way home. Dr. McCarthy joked that when she is in his company, she becomes a second-class citizen because everyone flocks around him. He is an absolutely beautiful dog. Before everyone came in, we were talking about dogs. There are many dog lovers here. We recognise the incredible work that guide dogs are doing. There are many puppy walkers and trainers who are incredible people. There are also the fundraising people, who we encounter at various public events around the county and country. I acknowledge them and all the fabulous work that they do.

We will move to members' questions. We have six minutes per member. We usually allow a little leeway, perhaps 30 seconds or so. There are a lot of witnesses here and we want to get through a lot of stuff. I will give a bit of leeway, but when I tap on my glass it is to indicate that a speaker should wrap up.

It can be frustrating because we are against the clock. When we come to the end of the meeting, there may be elements that the witnesses will not have had time to properly answer. I will give them time at the very end to close out any bits. We will try to keep moving as best we can. I call Senator Scahill.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. There are a lot of them and they had a lot to say. I was particularly interested in the lived experience of Dr. McCarthy, Mr. Foley and Mr. Earley. I thank them for opening up on that.

From what the witnesses said, there seems to be a real emphasis on the lack of training available to support people. Last November, I was at a launch with Féach and Angel Eyes, where the Chair delivered the address. There were some great figures. Many national bodies were represented that day. It was great to see the solution that was come up with. Everybody who had gone through that had seen 100% improvement in confidence and supporting people with visual disabilities. Skills enhancement was the other thing. The research showed that all of those people were continuing to use those skills. The appetite was there and once people had the tools, they were prepared to go off and look at that. There was another step. Within a week of the launch of the initiative, nearly 300 respondents signed up. The appetite is out there to get involved as classroom assistants and SNAs. Those organisations have come up with a solution and must be commended on that.

I have two questions. Do the other witnesses consider the project that Angel Eyes and Féach have put together to be the solution? My second question is for the representatives of those organisations. What is required for that pilot initiative to be rolled out nationally in Ireland? The witnesses can take those questions as they see fit.

ChildVision welcomes any opportunity for training for anybody who is supporting visually impaired students across the board. We engage with Féach and Vision Ireland on opportunities for the future and would welcome collaboration. We are also supportive of what Féach is doing.

I would absolutely support that initiative as part of a solution. There are other strands and elements. I spoke earlier about an ecosystem of support. There are different moving parts in this. The training around Braille is a distinct piece because it is a particular specialism. That needs to sit alongside it or sit in with it. There is also the training for the students themselves, particularly before they transition and particularly in respect of technology, orientation and mobility. There are different strands here, but I would certainly support that as an initiative.

From our point of view, as Ms O'Dwyer said, it is a whole ecosystem.

This, if we look at it as a product, is very good for teachers and SNAs teaching vision-impaired students. It will give them the basic skills they need. Braille is another whole element. We dipped our toe in the water of Braille and said this is a really special skill that is not for us. What is great about our course is it comes with the resources we have made through collaborating with teachers and SNAs. We have school guides and AT and IT guides, which fits in with the IEP and school support plan. From our point of view, it is that lived experience piece, that added the extra bit that all the teachers believe is what they need. It is not from a policy or educational point of view, where they are asked to do things they cannot fit into the school day. As far as we are concerned, this is ready to go. It has a proven track record. What we are looking for is funding. It is for either the National Council for Special Education or the Department of Education and Youth to take this on and roll it out. It is a really effective way to get training into these teachers, and for some reason we get a huge uptake. We are on social media. We have a lot more networks to hit people with, so to speak, and it really seems to work. That is because of the lived experience piece.

The Senator's first question was do we think it is the solution and I 100% think it is. Even from my time in school, from when I was in first year to upper sixth, the system completely changed. In first year iPads were not mainstream, but by upper sixth they were mainstream even for non-visually impaired students. Everyone had an iPad. As the technology progresses that way, although the training is still really important, the system is going to get better and better. Many of my friends in university are using the same technology that I did in school to do their uni work. I really like the point that was made about it being more discreet because if everyone is using an iPad, you cannot tell the difference.

I noticed Mr. Earley is a third level computer science student. Is he working on anything in relation to assistive technology, or has he come up with any ideas he would like to explore on that side of things?

I am only an undergraduate so nothing super-specific, but there are always incredible things coming out. AI is the big buzzword but there is good reason behind that. It can do incredible things when it comes to assistive technology. My go-to example is the Meta Ray-Ban glasses. Just like that, they are consumer technology, they are discreet, and anyone on the street could be wearing them for any reason. For me, I can use them to read a piece of paper or send pictures to describe what is around me. I can use them to do a hundred things and it does not look any different from anyone else.

I thank our witnesses for their presentations. There are a few common points coming through such as the training of educational staff. Obviously, we are talking about education; we are in the education committee. There are many other issues which need to be addressed around blind or visually impaired people and their lives, but when talking about education, it is the training. The witnesses are aware, I am sure, that the Department, NCCA and the State Examinations Commission were in with us a few weeks ago on this issue. I asked whether they thought the visiting teacher numbers were sufficient - the figure averages out at 88:1 - and they more or less said "Yes." I know the witnesses have said it is not a silver bullet but we definitely need more visiting teachers.

The training is vital. I am looking forward to reading the results of Dr. McCarthy’s research because, again, I asked that day about data on children who are blind or visually impaired and how they cope with the education system. There is some data for the deaf and hard of hearing but they were saying there is no data on this subject. There will be data coming from Dr. McCarthy’s research. It is the training and how to get this training across the board and embedded into the system. The witnesses said, regarding the training they are providing and the project they are doing, that they are charitable. They are not funded in any way. Do they get funding under the shared island project? Yes. That is how it was possible. What we need to see is funding provided through the National Council for Special Education or the Department of Education and Youth. I found, through talking to, for example, the SNA sector, that they are very willing to take on training in their own time if it means they can upskill to help students with whatever particular needs they have. Have there been any talks with the Department about rolling out specific training within the teacher training colleges or at CPD? What response has there been?

We met with the National Council for Special Education after the shared island event and to talk about this. What we are trying to do is wrap our service around the visiting teacher service so they can do what they are best at. They are being dragged all over the place, so we were going to go down and show them what we are doing. It is a lengthy process and we need the committee’s support to try to push this through. That is going to be vital.

I would like to go to that other point about the figures. It is shocking that nobody knows the figures, but we do have figures from AHEAD. Every year it looks at the participation levels of all students with disabilities in higher education. For the past six years - I had this point in my statement but did not get around to saying it - every single year we had the lowest growing number of students. Every single year, we are twice as likely to do arts, which has the lowest employment rate. While we do not have those exact figures, the evidence is there. Every single year AHEAD has said this needs to be looked at and fixed. That does not seem to be happening. We do not want a big policy review or a whole load of research. We are saying this is done. We can get in here, boots on the ground, and start to fix it. That is a really important statistic to bring up because it should be looked at. That is where we are; it is a lengthy process. What you get with the Department of education and the National Council for Special Education is this kind of, “no, it's their remit”. We need to try to get someone to own it and I think it belongs to the National Council for Special Education. It do think it likes it. It is a case of trying to get that piece twice a year and get a whole load in. That would sort one section of this problem but it would definitely help a lot.

What Mr. Foley and Mr. Earley shared about their lived experience and how they found school was really interesting. I thank them for sharing. It is about the lack of training among teachers but also how they made them feel different. That is not what education should be about. Education is more than just going in and learning. The learning piece is really important, but the social aspect is just as important. I presume the college experience has been much better for them, has it?

However, with the second level experience in particular, I know from formerly being a teacher that, generally, second level students do not want an adult hanging around with them. SNAs should have enough sense to know to provide the support that is needed or what the student requests. Mr. Foley and Mr. Earley feel they were made to feel different, which is not what education should be about. That is very unfortunate. What advice do they have for others coming along?

Obviously I cannot speak for everyone. It is definitely person to person. Someone could need more support than me. Definitely, by the time you are at the end of secondary education, you are 18 and an adult. I had an agreement whereby if I needed an SNA, I could email them. They did not need to be seated beside me. At the start of secondary school they could be telling me off and being like “Don't do that”, but everyone is there to have a bit of fun in school so that definitely marginalised me, which is not fair. They are there to provide a service, not to be a-----

A curtailment.

Yes.

That should definitely be in their training, that they are there to provide support for the student as and how they need it. Does Mr. Earley have anything to add?

I agree with all of that. The only other thing I would say is, again, it is the training piece, at least in my case. The SNA and the school staff were worried about health and safety concerns, which is why they insisted I had an SNA with me on my break. Another example is, I learned a route. Students were allowed go down town and get food at lunchtime. Working with Vision Ireland, I learned that route. The school was like, “Okay, great, well done. You can walk on your own. You're still going to have to have an SNA go with you, though.” Even though Vision Ireland had signed off and said “he can do it fine, he's grand, it is the exact same as any other student”, the school still said "No". As someone who is visually impaired, that perception as something more delicate, who needs to be protected, almost, is really hurtful as a teenager.

When my SNA person, with whom I worked every day and whom I personally liked a lot and got on with, would say I could not do a thing that everyone else did because of health and safety, it made me feel like everyone thought I was something lesser and was not as able to do the same things as everyone else.

That again is an educational piece.

I am next in the speaking roster. I will start where Senator Tully left off. Before we came into the committee room I had a brief chat with the witnesses. I asked Mr. Earley if he attended the school for the visually impaired and blind in Drumcondra. He told me he was schooled locally, which was great to hear.

We had the Department and the visiting teachers before the committee. It was a learning curve for us because I am a primary school teacher. I dealt with students in the past who had Stargardt's disease. The day I heard of it I had to turn my back to the class to google it. That is the reality. In teacher training you learn so little about the spectrum of additional needs a child in the class might have. It was an eye-opening experience and a learning curve the day we had the visiting teachers before the committee. They are shared across several counties. As Senator Tully has said, the pupil-teacher ratio could be 1:88.

I have a question for Mr. Earley and I ask him to be as honest as he can. This is not about the teachers he dealt with or the personalities because I am sure they are all fantastic. We are talking about the system, so he should be honest about the system if he does not mind. I note he is using a Braille machine. I have not seen one of those before. I imagine it is hugely onerous to learn that when you are a youngster. It is onerous in itself to learn how to read and write without trying to learn how to use this machine on top of that if you are visually impaired. Technology is changing all around you and all of that is going on. Does the arrival of a visiting teacher do enough in his opinion to give instruction in Braille, or is it hit and miss with a bit of help and then they are gone, and you are back to struggling on in the classroom again?

It is definitely the second one. The visiting teachers were amazing. I had two through my time in education. However, disability is a large field and within that low vision and blindness is such a large field that you cannot possibly know everything. My visiting teacher knew Braille well, but she was not really trained in using a Braille display and when the Braille display broke down, which it did regularly, only I had any idea how to fix it. I remember vividly one weekend the Braille display broke down on Friday and we had exams on Monday. For the two days of that entire weekend, I was desperately trying to fix a machine like the one I have as it just refused to work entirely. There was no real support available for that simply for the reason that no-one else had a clue how to do it. I was the only person in the school who had any idea how to use this device. If we needed support with it we had to send it off to England and it would be gone for two to three weeks at absolute best. There is so much of a burden placed on you as a student in that there are so many extra things you have to do that when you get to do the homework everyone else thinks is a stretch, you are thankful for a break.

Depending on how limited one's vision is as a youngster, you will either receive recommendation to get your education in Drumcondra or to have it at local level. Thankfully, Mr. Earley was able to receive his education locally. However, these visiting teachers operate in county clusters. I asked a question the last day and I think the Department pushed back against it a bit. I asked if instead of having the teacher driving miles through different counties every day, it would be more beneficial if there were a clustered classroom where Roscommon, where Mr. Earley is from, and his neighbouring county might have a teacher permanently. In the mornings you would travel to a school. Would that be the opposite of what he would have desired as a secondary student?

That proposal has positives and negatives. Overall, I do not think I would have liked it as a student. Going back to the social isolation issue, were I to be constantly going on almost a private field trip to a different school, I think it would have made the social part much more difficult were I to be out of the building for reasons nobody else had. It did happen on occasion but if that had been a constant thing, it would have been much harder than it already was to meet and talk to people.

My next question is for Dr. McCarthy.

I was going to add to that briefly.

Sure.

It is a good idea on some levels. However, if you are taking the students out to go to a central place, the teachers who are teaching the student within the mainstream setting are not getting training.

Yes, that is true.

There is that gap again. That is regularly happening and is what some of my research from the teachers shows about their engagement with the visiting teacher service. They are not criticising it in any way. They are saying there is not enough of it. It is not consistent enough and they do not have the answers. They are waiting and trying to-----

We focused a lot of our questions the other day on the visiting teacher and I was alarmed to hear that he is on secondment from a mainstream school. He has taken a huge plunge. I think he went to study in Birmingham to work with visually impaired students. It is a big plunge. As I said, I was a teacher. I am sure the Department wants to keep him in that role for as long as he is available, but it should be more than secondment. Surely, it should be a permanent role with a recognised salary to entice people in and hold them there. Does Dr. McCarthy have any views on that?

It would be more beneficial if they had more stable contracts. If they are seconded and next September something happens in the school they have been seconded from, they will have to go back although they might have just upskilled themselves and got to know their students. Again, it is the students who miss out because they have to get to know somebody else and that person is trying to upskill themselves to support a student going through the system. I am really disappointed that all of this is being perpetuated and is constant. I know vision impairment is a low-incidence disability but I feel we are neglecting them within the system as it is currently.

I know the Chair has finished but I will make one point. If I were Minister for education I would separate the visiting teachers into six highly qualified Braille teachers to let them do the specialist job, and let the other visiting teachers focus on the visually impaired. I think that is how you get the specialist skills and get them to last. With this switch-over of skills and secondment, it takes a teacher approximately four years to get up on Braille to begin to support the student. If you divide it into five counties or segments and had five specialist Braille teachers who had a larger area but only did Braille, you would be taking four visits from the visiting teachers per week so the visiting teachers can focus on the students with visual impairment, and you are getting a highly skilled task force. That is where I think we need to be focusing, and secondment is a no-brainer.

We will make note of that suggestion.

The Chair is 100% right there.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation, which was fascinating. Just when you think you know something about education you meet another group of people and realise you do not know anything about that either. I am particularly struck by what Mr. Foley and Mr. Earley said. I was saddened to hear about the struggles Mr. Foley had. I hope that something happens from him sharing his experiences. Unfortunately, sometimes that is what has to happen. People come to the committee or put submissions through based on their own experiences and there then is movement from that. I congratulate Mr. Earley on his presentation. He said he had to teach the teacher. It is pathetic that we are relying on someone's own experience to teach a person how to teach them back. It is so wrong. As a parent of four, I am sure his parents did not mind helping him at all. However, I think the point he is trying to make is that they had to do it. I am sure he would have preferred that they could have played a game or done something together as a family rather than do schoolwork together, but the point is well made. It is the fact that he should not have had to do it. I was struck that the two witnesses are involved in organisations because of their lived experiences. It is the same for Dr. McCarthy with her PhD. It is all about how we have to advocate because there are experiences individuals are having. This country sometimes drives me mental.

I was concerned that 38% of visually impaired young people in Northern Ireland are NEET, so not in education, training or anything. One in four is working.

How can we change that? I know members have asked lots of other questions. I was involved in the school completion programme previously, so my question is always about what we can do to support those young people. I worked in Rosmini Community School across the road from ChildVision. My job as school completion co-ordinator was to make sure anyone who was at risk of early school leaving or not progressing would be on our target lists. The irony, when you see those statistics, is that we never had any young person who was visually impaired or blind because they are treated as separate. That is part of our challenge here.

The training Féach wants to do in schools with teachers and SNAs is brilliant. I wondered about initial teacher training education and SNAs because what I hear is that without a specialist understanding of things, a young person with a visual impairment or who is blind cannot go to mainstream school very effectively.

I have one clarifying question, which I hope is not insulting, about when people are learning Braille. Is it a bit like learning to read, in that it has to be learned incrementally, as in learning whatever it is in second class and then, further, in third class? Are students reliant on the Braille teacher who comes? If their mainstream classroom teacher cannot teach them Braille, what do they do when everybody else in the class is learning how to read? I am sorry if that is a very basic question. I genuinely do not know the answer to it.

At least in my case, that is kind of how it worked. This was in junior infants through first class, so forgive me if my memory is a little shoddy. My visiting teacher would come in and do a few letters. Braille also has this concept called "contractions". You can do different Braille symbols to represent, say, a whole word. The word "the" and the word "and" are represented by one singular Braille symbol. The visiting teacher would have come in probably twice or three times a month and gone through a few of those letters. I would then practise them in class. In my case, I was lucky in primary school as my SNA, on her own initiative, went off and learned Braille so she could help me with it but otherwise no one in the school could do so. If she had not chosen to do that on her own time over the summer, I would have been waiting until the visiting teacher came back.

When everybody else in Mr. Earley's class was learning to read Anne and Barry, what did he do?

I had my own Braille books from ChildVision. They had pictures and raised Braille print, so I would have read those. Those were, however, different books with a different story from what everyone else was reading. When everyone else was reading out loud in a class setting I was sitting at my own desk reading on my own and feeling a little sorry for myself.

I feel very sorry for Mr. Earley. The whole thing about inclusive education is that it does not other people. Is that still happening? I know Mr. Earley is in college now but is that different now?

I do not know. I can-----

I might speak briefly to that. That has changed considerably. We would mainly have children who would be following their curriculum. With the advances in technology and Braille, they would, by and large, be following a curriculum. As regards how it is taught, if students are learning literacy through Braille as opposed to learning Braille, there is a difference in how they learn it. Sometimes that gets confused and people think students just need to learn Braille or know the alphabet, which is not the case. They are learning literacy through Braille. That is why we introduced the Braille in education course for teachers, SNAs and others who are supporting it in education. Things are not quite as bleak as they were, thankfully, but there is still an awful lot to do. There are an awful lot of children who are learning through Braille. The numbers are really small and it is really niche area. There are probably 50 students learning Braille and possibly another 30 who-----

Is that in the entire country?

Yes. Then there are probably between 30 and 35 dual learners who may be learning Braille as well as possibly oral or through magnification. I absolutely support Ms Walsh's suggestion that one of the solutions here is to have Braille expertise. If you have 16 visiting teachers in the country and there is only that number of Braille users, some of whom might be in first class, while others will be in sixth year or doing the junior certificate, how can teachers have that breadth of knowledge to support Braille? It is not possible. We need a small number of specialists to support Braille.

Sorry, I know the time is nearly up but I feel very passionately about the fact that only one in four people are employed. I only found that out six months ago and I was absolutely appalled. It is horrible that the figure is 25%. When I was 16 I got a part-time job. I did not think anything of it. I just thought I was like everyone else, which is how it should be. It is so stigmatised when people feel almost scared to go into an interview setting and say "By the way, I am visually impaired". That freaks out employers because they think they will have to make additional adjustments and would rather just reject the applicant, using some other reason, obviously, because they cannot discriminate. I know we are discussing education but it is also so important that employers are aware. It is all good getting an education but it is not much use if you cannot get a job with it afterwards.

Yes, absolutely. I thank all the witnesses.

I thank all the witnesses for their presentations and for being here. I listened to most of the presentations online. I am sorry I was not here at the start of the meeting but I was listening in. I missed a couple of minutes on my way down the stairs, so my question may have been answered. I was a secondary school teacher and I never got any training in helping the visually impaired in my classroom. Should that be a mandatory part of what we call the professional master degree in education, PME, in the South or initial teacher education in general? Would it be the witnesses' view that it should be a mandatory part of the initial training?

We would definitely say that. As I referred to in my statement, we are training student teachers in Stranmillis University College. We trained 144 last year and we will do that again this year. It was incredibly successful and out of four training days the students did, 70% of those students chose it as their subject on which to do an assignment. There is definitely that understanding at that level. However, as Mr Foley noted, we have a lot of really frightening statistics further up the line. That can be a lot to do with the fear around visual impairment. Over 70% of adults fear losing their vision more than any other disability. It is actually the same as a fear of getting cancer or heart disease. It is all the same. People have that unconscious bias and we are seeing that filtering through in our employment statistics. In the case of those with any other disability in Northern Ireland, 38% of them are unemployed and 62% are in employment, yet we only have 25% of visually impaired people in employment. Any training that could be provided at the start of their career would be really useful.

Would anyone else like to come in before I ask a second question?

Training on managing difference and inclusion in a broad sense, as well as universal accessibility, is a must. I am not sure that is strong because visual impairment is such a niche and low-incidence disability. If all of those teachers were trained, I am not sure how many would have exposure to visual impairment but it would benefit everybody across the board to have better knowledge and understanding of how to create inclusion in education.

I will say the overall inclusive education I got from Professor Michael Shevlin in Trinity College Dublin was pretty decent but I understand there are challenges as well.

There are.

I get Ms O'Dwyer's point.

We keep hearing that this is a low-incidence disability. It is not a low-incidence disability; it is an under-reported disability. At least 70% of children in our special educational needs schools will have a significant visual impairment, but they are identified through different disabilities. Learning disability or physical disability will come above that. That is what we have identified very clearly in Northern Ireland. We know from our census that we have over 4,000 children who have a visual impairment.

I do not think it is any load to carry to have an awareness, as a teacher, of how you can help in the classroom. My own view is it is something that should be brought in on a mandatory basis. As a committee, we might work with the groups here today to look at how that would work.

That leads me to my second question. What would minimum competency or that training look like? Physically, on a PME course, what would that module look like? What would you need as a minimum competency to go into a classroom and be adequately equipped, even at a minimum level, to help a student with a visual impairment?

We are doing it in a one-day course. That may seem really tiny but it opens the doors and gives that good understanding of the kind of support that is required. We are not saying that is the end of the story. The Senator Googled it when that child came in with Stargardt disease and that was his first experience. At least that gives people the pathways and the knowledge so they know where to go to get the support and help. They have a good understanding that assistive technology will help, of the need for adaptive resources and thinking about the environment. We feel that even knowing what things to think about and where to go after that is a really good start.

Following on from Ms McCracken, it does not have to be a huge component of the PME. I work on the PME in Trinity and I really feel the important piece is giving them the basic understanding but also where they need to go for supports. Some of the teachers and educators who completed my survey had no idea who to go to. There are so many different elements to this, such as Vision Ireland, ChildVision and all of these, but teachers and educators do not know what part each plays. That is something that could be part of the PME programme.

Hopefully, this is something the witnesses can add their voices to as regards advocacy. A total of 90% of teachers, if not more, in the system are not coming out of an initial training college right now. They are probably teachers who went through the system with very little knowledge on how to be a force for good for students with a visual impairment in the classroom. If we could fight to try to make sure some sort of a mandatory CPD element is brought in across the board for current, existing teachers, that would be a powerful move. I ask for the witnesses help on that. Go raibh míle maith agaibh for coming in today. This has been really interesting.

We find that teachers are so willing to engage. That is the thing. They want to learn and for us that is really a powerful thing to have. We do not have to convince anyone about this. I think the Senator's idea is perfect.

I can back that up because I am a teacher who would love to go through CPD on this. I would feel lost at the moment if I had to try to help a child with a visual impairment. I thank all the witnesses.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as a bheith anseo inniu. I agree with what Senator Curley said. I do not believe the training in college equipped us. I was a primary school teacher and we had a module on special education - that was it. Everything I had to learn was from when I went to college again or through CPD online courses in my own time. There has been a lot of talk about training already.

I will ask about the orientation and mobility. All of this is very new for me. Whose responsibility is it and does this lie with the visiting teacher or the primary care teams? How are gaps referred? The service is in Cork and Waterford only. Why is that? Are there any other services that are basically a postcode lottery?

I am happy to respond. The main concern around orientation and mobility is exactly what the Deputy is asking; where does it sit? Does it sit within education? Does it sit within health? Within ChildVision, we offer orientation and mobility training under our national remit for PDS within our Cork service and on campus in Dublin. They are the only two areas but with a very small team in terms of orientation mobility. Orientation and mobility is not an area where you can go off the street and pick up a specialist. It is an area where we need to have specific training and professional standards. We have already started conversations with Vision Ireland and other organisations about where that could be seen. The question - for us as well - is where does that sit?

Where does Ms Healy want it? What does she feel?

Ideally, if it sat in the Department of education, it would become part of that extended core curriculum within education. That would be the ideal for it but it goes between two places at the moment.

I will give some background on the Cork and Waterford piece, which was started by the Department of education 20 or 25 years ago. It started a pilot in Cork for the provision of orientation and mobility training through the Department of education. That pilot is still going and it has never been looked at. We have requested that to be looked at through the NCSE and the Department of education over and over. Its response is that both ChildVision and Vision Ireland are funded to provide orientation and mobility training in the rest of the country, which we are to a degree.

Alongside our broad remit of what we do, we provide some orientation and mobility training, as does ChildVision, but we do not have the resources to provide it to the intensity that is needed in order for it to be successful. Cork and Waterford have that additional piece that is run through the Department of education. That is what we are asking for across the rest of the country so that additional piece will come and support what we are already doing.

When we were here in 2024, we highlighted that. We were on that for about a year before we came in here. Is that nearly two years later? I am talking to the HSE and the Department of education. They are both doing this, but 14 months later I am still waiting for an answer on where this is. I have emails to show and I have had a meeting. I have had a couple of other emails but I have still not received an answer as to where this fits.

We will advocate until the cows come home. I have two children who went blind over their lifetime. They knew they were going blind. Everybody knew they were going blind but they did not get orientation and mobility support. The first piece they got was when Cormac went to Ms O'Dwyer's transition year course. This was written on the wall. When they went into college, both of them nearly ended up leaving because they did not have the orientation and mobility skills to be independent. They had all the academic skills in the world because I was behind them, but that is what we are down to. That is a complete derogation of their rights. I have tried for nearly 15 months to get an answer on this and I am so glad the Deputy brought it up because this is not right. The last I heard was they were trying to decide what pillar to put it under. In five years, by the time they have decided a pillar, there will be another 100 kids out there not getting through college because the whole thing is far too overwhelming. I am really glad the Deputy brought that up.

Is there anything we can do, such as writing to somebody?

I would support that.

Maybe we will write to try to get-----

We might tick-tack with the secretariat and get some correspondence going.

I have another question about STEM subjects being less accessible in schools compared to arts subjects. I want to ask about that. Maybe Mr. Foley and Mr. Earley might tell us about their experiences with that. Obviously, it was not quite accessible for Mr. Earley. I would love to hear why that is. On languages, I speak Irish at home with my kids and that is something I am very interested in. I spoke about it at our last meeting but I was late, so it was actually out in the corridors where I was told some new and interesting information about Gaeilge and braille but I cannot remember exactly what was said. If anyone has any experience with languages and STEM, that would be very interesting.

We will start with the languages. Irish Braille is, in a phrase, very weird. You have to learn a completely new code, in essence. I mentioned the acronyms. You can write "and" as one Braille letter. The Braille letter that means "and" is also an A with a fada. Another Braille letter that is the word "for" is also E with a fada, for example. Learning Irish through Braille adds another level of complication on top of an already very complicated system. It is another thing that the visiting teacher has to come back and teach. If they do not know, they have to go off and find someone who knows. It is a game of Chinese whispers while you try to get the message through to the student as to how they should write an A with a fada.

As for STEM, the main issue with that is the one I highlighted in my statement. With all the specialised symbols, a non-subject matter expert cannot read it. A lot of the time, Braille either does not have it or I do not know it has it because there is nowhere you can go to really find that easily.

For a lot of maths things, even in college, I would not write a symbol in Braille. I would just write out the word. It is a bad example because there is actually a symbol for it, but if I wanted to write "2 squared", I would write "2 squared". There is no real easy way of learning those Braille symbols if you do not know them already or know a good place to go to find them.

We are going to have a second round of questions. It will be three minutes per member for this round, so it is back to me again. I have three very quick questions. I want to ask the representative bodies about assistive technology. It is changing so much. As technology changes, is it a battle for primary and secondary school students to get that technology or is the Department receptive to funding and resourcing the whole time?

My second question is about the whole idea that, if the visual impairment is so profound, the needs cannot be met at regional or local level and it is recommended the child has to go to Drumcondra. That is a huge upheaval. I want to say that it is a fabulous school, by the way. I do not want to take from the school, but it is an incredible upheaval for the child and, perhaps, their family to make that move to Dublin. Will the representative bodies comment on that?

I have a question on literacy. Listening to Mr. Earley in particular talking about his experience of Braille, do we have enough of the skill of Braille - as Ms O'Dwyer said, literacy through Braille? Do we have sufficient ways of tracking literacy and illiteracy, because that can exist as well within the Braille and visually impaired community? We just seem to have Sigma and Micra tests and Drumcondra tests at primary level. Do we have enough monitoring mechanisms to ensure that, while these visiting teachers are gone and, although there may be a struggle, the class teacher and SNA are doing their best, there are enough checks and balances to ensure that actual literacy is being attained along the way? I am sorry, there is a lot there.

I will run through the three questions very quickly. The availability of technology is no problem. To be fair to the Department and the visiting teachers, they are quite quick on that. The problem underneath all of that always is the question of teaching the digital skills around technology, but the availability of the technology itself is not a problem. Technology does not mean inclusion.

There is a public perception that a lot of children go to special education in Drumcondra and have that upheaval, but that is a very rare occurrence, thankfully. I have worked in this area for so long and come from a time when all of the kids went to Drumcondra, and I am so glad to have lived through the whole move to mainstreaming.

In terms of monitoring of Braille progress and literacy, the simple answer is we do not. We do not have-----

Do other countries have a model?

I am not sure what they use but we do not even have an agreed curriculum for teaching Braille, as far as I know. It is very difficult to get that information. We certainly lack the checks and balances in terms of progress in Braille.

I am nearly out of time. In my remaining time, I want to say that we are only scratching the surface here. The witnesses have come in here with recommendations and lived experience, so I wish to formally propose that our committee write to the Minister, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, and ask that she meet a delegation and inform the joint committee when a date for that has been organised. I will ask her that the meeting will focus on how the appropriate initial teacher education, ITE, and continuous professional development, CPD, for teachers and SNAs can be brought into being without further delay. The Secretary General of the Department of Education and Youth, the CEO of the NCSE and the managing director of Oide will also be copied on the letter. Is that agreed by everyone? Deputy Ní Raghallaigh might follow up with the secretariat on her specific point and on Ms Walsh's point as well so that we include those. The Deputy might work with us on that so that we can include it in our letter and a single document goes in.

One of the things that struck me was the level of need. I spoke about people with lived experience having to do this and that we now have to have two organisations putting forward all of this training. As a Social Democrat, I feel that this is a public service, so this should be part of the education system and the Department of education or the NSCE should provide this training in the initial teacher education. That is in all of the colleges and should be part of the requirement. The CPD should be part of the Department of education's requirements for people working in schools. Would that be the witnesses' hope, that it would be mainstreamed into that Department, or do they think that it should be separate because the expertise is with their organisations and sometimes it is better to look at the expertise that is in the room today, because without that it can become at risk of being a bit less targeted through the lived experience of the people who are delivering that training? This question is for the two representative organisations.

Deputy Cummins has hit the nail on the head because if the training does not come with the lived experience piece, it tends not to really be fit for purpose. Every useful thing we have done is by going into schools and asking how we can do this. We go back in and out of the school. It is all about that interaction. In a perfect world, we would say let us create these policies and make this, this and this, but why do they come and register for our courses so quickly? It is the lived experience piece. We write guides that only we can write because it is a combination of both. If I am a pure educationalist, I have to write exactly the phases, pedagogy and everything. We write for the education system that is there, so we will need to be in with people to make it effective.

I agree, but I do think there is value in the teacher training. Just getting that awareness is useful. It is a really short time in their course.

I think Féach training in July is very valid and cannot be excluded from this. Otherwise, if it is just policy, it will become another box-ticking exercise, and we have seen that happening for decades already. It would be a case of "We did that", but what we did is actually not impacting positively on the students.

Dr. McCarthy is teaching on the initial teacher training course in Trinity. What specific area does she focus on?

I work on the sociology of education module. I am not specific to a subject area, but it can be incorporated in there. The trainee teachers are very willing. They are enthusiastic and want to learn. I work with them in second year and I often ask them how many of the people who taught them during their PME had identified disabilities. They say that I was the only one. We are not even visible within that system.

We are the education and youth committee, so if anyone wants to speak to the youth work element, is there anything to add? Are there youth services available? Would anyone like to speak to that? No?

We are so focused on education because it comes down to this figure of one in four blind and visually impaired people being in a full-time job. For me as a mother, I need them to have jobs. That needs to be education. In a perfect world, of course it would extend out there. For us, that is all we have been focusing on because that is what is vitally important, but there is a place for youth in this. I am conscious that we are all older and coming in with this stuff. That is why it is so powerful to have Mr. Earley and Mr. Foley here today because theirs are voices we need to hear.

That is what I am hearing - social isolation, their experiences at school and that kind of thing. That is why we should perhaps link in with youth workers.

Twenty years ago when I started my PhD, the social exclusion issue came out strongly in my PhD as well, so that has not changed.

Ms O'Dwyer probably has experience in this area.

In relation to the TY LENS programme for TY students - Mr. Earley addressed this as well - peer connections and social exclusion are addressed on that programme. It is definitely a low-incidence disability but it has a high impact on students. Mr. Earley will never, through education, meet another blind student because it just will not happen. It will not be within his geographic region. Unless something specific is done in a dedicated way to bring people together and give them that opportunity to meet their peers, it will not happen.

That TY LENS programme should cross over into the youth sector, particularly where it is outside of education and there are early school leavers we are still supporting. What we would be looking for is to embed that programme within education or within youth work. It is the most powerful intervention with the students in terms of getting them ready to transition into third level, higher education or employment.

I agree. The summer programme that ChildVision is piloting this year is an opportunity for 32 students. We put out a call for expressions of interest before Christmas and we filled those 32 places immediately. That shows the want for people to come together. It is social inclusion and the vision skills piece, but mainly it is about meeting peers and sharing their lived experiences. Being able to do that with a residential component takes away that piece of everything having to happen in Dublin and people being unable to travel. It is important for us to have that as a fully inclusive programme.

I will explain what will happen next. The witnesses will probably have seen there are television screens here. The Dáil and the Seanad are in full swing. Some of our members have had to go up to contribute. They may be back down - I am not sure, but I expect they will, so if they come in, we will give them time to speak. While we wait for that, we will go from left to right. We will not put people on the clock, but perhaps they will as concisely as they can close out on points that may need closure.

Senator Martin Conway is not a member of this committee but he would be a great ally to all of you here. He is a fellow Clare man. The Senator has had only very limited vision since a child and he is legally blind. He does huge advocacy work in here for all of you. I just wanted to acknowledge that.

We will go from left to right. We may see members coming in. Some of them are following this debate from offices or other chambers. They will probably come down, and if they do, we will just slot them in for some additional time. We will start with Ms Walsh.

A huge thanks to the committee for today. I can see from the questions members have asked that they have really looked into this. That means an awful lot to us. I feel that there will be positives coming out of this. The important thing I want to change is a child's potential being determined by their parents' level of education or ability to advocate. That is wrong and it is one of the reasons I am embedded in this. I feel so passionately about this.

There is one other matter. We did a lot of talking about teachers and, in particular, SNAs today. SNAs are fantastic. They are so dedicated and our children would not get through school without them. We want to empower them to be able to support our children to become independent and walk away. I just hope that message came through there. Like Mr. Foley said, he was in the situation of only calling for the SNA when he needed them. That is what we want for every student but that can only come with the training that they need. I just thought it was worth saying that because I do not want SNAs thinking we are giving out about them. They are incredible people.

I thank Ms Walsh for asking us to contribute today. Our two years on the shared island initiative was a really great project. It showed what could be achieved with a very limited amount of money but a lot of passion and the impact it could make. We are very passionate about the training programme that was developed as a result of that. A one-day intervention can make such a big difference. Going back to the statistics, when we went back to the year 1 participants, they were still applying that a year later, which was really powerful.

Regarding the statistics, we are very much focused on children who have stand-alone visual impairments. The wider picture is that those children have complex needs and their vision is not being considered. This is routinely seen across the board in special schools. It impacts all parts of development if the child's vision is not supported. This is what we have seen through the training that we have done with the special schools in Northern Ireland.

I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity. As somebody who is registered blind, I know we have potential. Our sight is not the thing that is actually preventing us excelling in the world, but the barriers that are put in place. I really hope that, as a result of us coming in here today, we can all work together to ensure that those with a vision impairment who are coming after us - long after me because I am practically retirement age - can actually go through the mainstream setting just like their brothers, sisters and peers. I went through the special education system back in the 1970s and 1980s because it was the norm at the time. I do not want that to become the norm again. I missed out hugely in a social way because I was not with my family.

With regard to Dr. McCarthy's last comment, did that mean in those years the education model meant that the child had to go to Drumcondra and the family were somewhere back home?

I went to St. Mary's School for the vision impaired, which was the girls school. The schools were separated at that stage.

Sorry. I understand.

It was in the 1970s and 1980s. I am from Cork and my parents and siblings remained in Cork. I came to Dublin at the age of seven and went home three times a year.

I was not aware that that was where the model was at. I apologise to members, but when did the visiting teacher programme come in?

In the late 1990s.

Building on from that, it has been really good today to hear everyone's experiences, especially Mr. Earley's. It is kind of eerie that it is so similar to my own yet in two completely separate systems. Hopefully, at the end of all of this, I would love it if people in general society saw me before my disability, as with Mr. Earley. In workplaces and education, I hope we get to a point where those really worrying statistics become negligible compared to the people without disabilities.

That is kind of the main thing. The only thing we are trying to achieve here is narrowing the gap of ignorance, even though I do not like using that word. That was always the issue in school. It was never that someone was just not wanting to do something or that someone was being mean or anything. It was just ignorance. They did not know or they forgot. It would not take much to change that. It does not take much training and it does not take much work, as Ms Walsh and Ms McCracken have shown. It is such a small thing and it makes such a massive difference for so many students.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here. I would like to give credit to listening to the lived experience. There is nothing better. There there should come a time where organisations like ours are not here and not at the table and that it is the lived experience only.

I would encourage the Department of education to become a little bit more like the HSE, which recognises the value and skills within the not-for-profit sector and is not as threatened by it. That concept of partnership is much stronger on the health side than it is in education.

I will add some figures to some of the conversations. ChildVision's reading services department is providing alternative formats to approximately 800 children in education across the country. Fewer than 10% of those children are in special schools. The majority of the children are in mainstream schools, which is really positive, but it shows the need for that training piece on a national basis.

In terms of assistive technology and training, it is important that we not only have a training piece in place, but that it be continuous training rather than one-off training after which a person is expected to know everything about a device. We have learned from lived experience and working with children with visual impairments that it is often the children who know the device and how to use it the best. Let us utilise that, alongside the professionals and with different bodies.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute.

Very good. I sincerely thank each one of you for coming here today and for your very honest testimonies, some of you as parents and all of you affiliated to different bodies. I thank you for coming in and advocating for others, and in the case of Dr. McCarthy, Mr. Foley and Mr. Earley, for advocating for themselves, their peer groups and their colleagues as well. I thank you for all of that. I thank Dr. McCarthy for her body of research.

We read the opening statements, but we also read a bit deeper into matters. As a committee, we can be very much focused on the education angle but it is very obvious that the witnesses do a lot of work socially to build a community. As Ms O'Dwyer said, they will not just find each other unless there is something co-ordinated there.

I thank the witnesses for everything they are doing. The discussion has been interesting and productive. I thank them for sharing their expertise and experience. I particularly commend Mr. Foley and Mr. Earley on their outstanding contributions and the courage and tenacity they have shown. We wish them both the best as they continue in their education. Along the lines of some of the comment they have heard today, we hope they and many other young people will have not too difficult a pathway into employment because that is ultimately where education is, hopefully, leading us all. I hope their days in college will be enjoyable ones.

I thank the secretariat and technical team for helping us co-ordinate this meeting.

The meeting stands adjourned until we meet in private session on Wednesday, 22 April 2026. We do not have a public meeting that day.