In advance of today's meeting, apologies have been received from Deputy Catherine Callaghan. I warmly welcome everyone this afternoon. I ask anyone who is attending remotely to mute him or herself when not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are within the confines of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official of the Houses of the Oireachtas either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The item on today's agenda, and we are delighted to host the witnesses, is creative arts education in Irish schools. I warmly welcome the following witnesses who join us today. From the National Gallery of Ireland, NGI, we have Mr. Andrew Hetherington, head of audience development and stakeholder engagement. I was over there a few weeks ago to visit and it was absolutely fabulous. If members have not been over there recently, do pay a visit. There is some fabulous youth art, in particular, on display. Also joining Mr. Hetherington we have Ms. Mandalena Miltiadi, member of the NGI youth panel. From the Arts Council's creative schools programme, we have Ms Mags Walsh, director, and Mr. Cillian Duignan, student. Both are very welcome. From Music Generation, we have Ms Rosaleen Molloy, national director, and Ms Kiêu Conroy, student. From Fighting Words we have Mr. Solomon Traynor, student. From The Magic of Music, we are joined by Ms Catherine Dunphy, chief executive officer.

I now call on the witnesses to make their opening statements in the following order: Mr. Hetherington, and we will display the winning young portrait of the year during his testimony and it will be seen on our screens; Ms Walsh and Mr. Duignan will share speaking time; Ms Molloy and Ms Conroy will also share speaking time and Ms Conroy will then play us the harp, untimed. I say "untimed" because every speech we deliver here has a clock running down but we could not possibly do that to beautiful music, so all of the legal warnings I give that apply to what we say, you can sing and play for how long you want and we are not governed by the same restrictions. It speaks to how music is a bit more untamed here, thankfully. Mr Conroy will play some beautiful music on the harp. We will then have Mr. Traynor and Ms Dunphy. Each will have five minutes to make an opening statement, apart from the music. The opening statements will then be followed by questions from each member of the committee. The members today will have six minutes each and I ask them to please leave adequate time within that for the visitors to respond.

At approximately 12.50 p.m., I will have to briefly vacate the Chair to ask a question in the Dáil. There is a bit of a juggle that goes on here the whole time. Our Vice Chairman, Senator Gareth Scahill, will take over for a few moments but we will try to do that seamlessly, without interrupting the witnesses' flow of music performance or speech.

Without further ado, we will begin with Mr. Hetherington.

I wish the Cathaoirleach and members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Youth a good afternoon. I am the head of audience development and stakeholder engagement at the National Gallery of Ireland and am joined today by Ms Mandalena Miltiadi, a member of the gallery’s youth panel. We thank the committee very much for having us here today.

The National Gallery of Ireland has worked with schools for over 50 years through a variety of programmes. In 2025 our programmes reached over 113,000 pupils in schools and alternative education settings, and over 78,000 young people across Ireland. In addition to the programmes I will talk about today, we delivered 457 school tours last year, engaging close to 11,000 students. From our deep, long-term understanding and support of schools, teachers, pupils and other young people’s engagement with the gallery, we present our submission to the committee.

Over recent years, we have developed a responsive and dynamic programme for creative arts education with schools, which is essential in supporting well-being, inclusion, creativity and connection. This programme spans the entire educational journey in Ireland for pupils in primary, post-primary, further and alternative educational settings, including DEIS, Gaelscoil and special schools.

The gallery’s schools programme would not be possible without SMBC Aviation Capital, which has supported us in this area since 2020 and became our first nationwide schools partner in 2023. Its partnership is dedicated to dismantling the recognised barriers to arts for children and young people, including; geographic, gender, language, disability and socio-economic barriers. Our programme is fully aligned with the arts in education charter and is built around three core beliefs. The first is that museums are civic and social spaces and that every child has the right to participate in and enjoy culture. Second, the arts have transformative power and can support general well-being. Third, galleries allow us to learn not only about art but through art.

Our schools programme has three distinct initiatives. The first is your gallery at school, a nationwide outreach programme that brings tailored arts education directly into schools and alternative educational settings. Each school works collaboratively with a professional artist facilitator to design a programme that responds directly to the needs and interests of its students.

Our second initiative is, my primary school is at the gallery, an intensive residency programme for local DEIS primary schools. This initiative is grounded in a collaborative, flexible, and needs-led approach and it is fully poverty-proofed with equality, diversity and inclusion embedded throughout. Through this programme, children attend their full school day on-site at the gallery, where curriculum subjects are delivered through arts-based methodologies.

The third initiative is our transition year and youth work experience programme. This provides young people aged 15 to 17 with opportunities to experience working life in the arts and cultural sector and to explore creative career pathways.

We are incredibly proud of our achievements with the schools programme and our deep and wide ranging work with schools and young people each year. We believe this important work warrants sustained and matched funding from public sources. With long-term Government support, we can ring-fence the programme's future, further develop our partnerships with schools and help to sustainably build creative arts education with and in schools. We welcome this committee's support in achieving that vision and its support in re-confirming the Government of Ireland's commitment to the gallery's master development plan.

In addition to our school tours and the SMBC Aviation Capital schools programme, the gallery’s youth panel is central to how we shape our programme for young people. The best person to speak to the committee about the activities of the panel is Mandalena.

I am a member and representative of the youth panel at the gallery, which I have been part of since it was formed.

From the start, we, the young people, were leading this project, making decisions about our goals, how we conduct our meetings and who we collaborate with. Our motto became "be sound", which meant that we were open-minded and friendly with everyone, but that we were also literally the sound or the voice for young people within the institution.

We planned exhibitions for queer youth to display their work in the gallery's education studio, created workshops inspired by temporary exhibitions such as Lavinia Fontana: Trailblazer, Rule Breaker, and invited the gallery's visitors to create art inspired by the collection. We collaborated with Irish artists such as Kerrie Hanna, based in Belfast, to create a stained glass piece that is now part of the gallery's permanent collection. We also connected with other gallery youth groups outside Ireland, such as Achtet AlisMB in the Staatliche Museen in Berlin.

These experiences have not just been fun and educational but have opened many doors for me and other young people. Since joining the panel, I have been able to work in the gallery, planning and facilitating workshops, including family drop-ins, quiet workshops for neurodivergent kids and Gaisce residencies with vulnerable adults. I have also had the privilege of connecting with other groups outside the gallery, such as This is Me Neurodiversity where I would facilitate art classes for neurodivergent kids in Rathfarnham. This has led me to pursue a master's degree in child art psychotherapy in University College Dublin, UCD.

It has been an incredible snowball effect where I get to use the tools and knowledge that I received from my time on the youth panel and share it with younger generations, and, in turn, they might do the same. I hope I can have more opportunities such as these to do what I love the most, which is to make art, teach and, most importantly, learn.

I wish good afternoon to the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators. I am the director of creative schools at the Arts Council of Ireland. I am thrilled to be joined today by Mr. Cillian Duignan who took part in the creative schools programme at his school in Cavan.

Taking a rights-based approach informed by the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child, the Arts Council in all its work seeks to ensure that the rights of all children and young people to participate freely in the arts, to express themselves through the arts and to have their say in the development of the arts are upheld. Creative schools is a two-year child-led programme to enhance the creative potential of every pupil by stimulating curiosity, communication and collaboration. The programme is led by the Arts Council in close partnership with the Department of Education and Youth, and working with our colleagues in the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport through Creative Ireland.

Creative schools is part of the nationally significant creative youth plan. This is a significant and sustained model of true partnership which had enabled not just creative schools but other initiatives, such as creative clusters and arts in early learning and care, to flourish. In particular, I acknowledge the Department of Education and Youth for its partnership in creative schools from its very beginnings. Since our pilot year in 2018, the Arts Council has supported almost 1,500 schools to become creative schools, which is approximately one in three schools, in every county in Ireland. Creative schools reaches lesser heard children and young people in special schools, schools in rural settings and DEIS schools, as well as settings such as youth justice and other alternative settings. The programme has been independently evaluated and shown to activate elements in the education system that might previously have been under-explored, for example, making connections, valuing individuality, being inclusive and diverse, and looking at the local community context of each school. Results are visible and tangible. Outputs created by schools provide a celebration and evidence of the creative process to which many children, staff and the wider community contribute. On the individual student level, the programme has been shown to enhance young people's well-being, self-esteem and connection to school.

However, the Arts Council's contribution to creative education is not confined to creative schools. Our work is about long-term national investment in cultural rights, artist development, educational partnership, participation, creative infrastructure and sector capacity across all stages of childhood and young adulthood. Children and young people's arts has evolved from a specialist participation area into a significant strategic priority within Arts Council policy and investment. On behalf of the State, we fund a range of schemes, including arts in early learning and care, youth art programmes, residences within higher education institutions and the touring of work for children and young people. We are significantly proud of these achievements, but we also know that meaningful experiences must reach every child, that individual impact is important and that while every child has a right to participate in the cultural life of the country, some experience more barriers than others. The Growing Up in Ireland study identified clear social background and gender challenges. We also know that rural isolation, compounded by rural transport challenges, can be a significant barrier for schools accessing arts experiences.

While we recognise these challenges, we also note with some optimism the opportunities that lie ahead for arts in education. The new primary arts curriculum, which recommends schools to connect with external arts partners, if resourced and adequately supported, can support schools to connect with the rich choice of organisations, institutions, models and centres specialising in practice with children. The Arts Council, along with our Department partners, are looking forward to the outputs of the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, research later this year, which will give clear pointers on what might be recommended to build on existing successes of creative youth and to add to our own evidence and insight. Indeed, we hope the convention on education will create space for a focus on arts education in its work schedule.

Having shared the programme overview with the committee, I am now delighted to invite Cillian to share his experience of participating in creative schools.

I have just finished transition year in Breifne College. From 2023 to 2025, Breifne was a part of the creative schools programme. Through it, we started a podcasting club, which makes regular podcasts about life in Breifne; we turned our school's international day into massive two-day celebration with displays of music, dance, literature, food and more from across our schools diverse cultural background; we painted a massive mural on the wall of our PE hall; we turned our courtyard into a giant chessboard, with big, waist-high pieces to play with; we started visiting primary schools to teach them coding, robotics, podcasting, science and lots more through fun lessons, such as launching bottle rockets, designing and programming radio-controlled, RC cars, or recording and editing their very own podcasts. We also launched a creative festival in our school during creative schools' creative February, where we have loads of workshops in a variety of areas, from flamenco dancing to drumming and art, and at the end we have a big display of it all.

This is just scratching the surface of what we did across our two years as a creative school. If I were to tell the committee every little thing we did, I would be here for hours. What is more, if I were to tell the committee all that has come from creative schools afterwards, I would be here until tomorrow. Perhaps some of it might have been done eventually without the scheme, but it would have taken time and money we did not have. It truly has changed every aspect of our school life for the better.

Mr. Duignan has really sold that to us. It sounds a lot more fun than we have here in Leinster House. I say "Well done" to Mr. Duignan and all his schoolmates. Next up, we will have Music Generation. We will start with Ms Molloy. I have to go up to the Dáil Chamber but rather than break the flow of the speeches, I will, with the agreement of members, pass over to the Deputy Chairperson, Senator Scahill, for seven or eight minutes. I will be back shortly. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the committee members for the opportunity to speak here today. I first came into contact with Music Generation when I was in second class in primary school. Before that, I had no access to music at all. We began with the tin whistle, which I was not a fan of, but everything changed in third class when I started learning the harp. That was when I met my harp teacher, Siobhán Buckley. Every Wednesday, we had a 30-minute group lesson. My school was very lucky to have harps provided by Music Generation and we were encouraged to practice during lunch breaks. At the time, I preferred spending time with my friends, and I even considered giving up the harp altogether. However, I was very lucky to have a principal like Ms Murphy. She had a real passion for music and always encouraged us to practise and stick with it. Her support, along with Siobhán's, made a huge difference to me.

During the Covid-19 pandemic, when I was in sixth class, Ms Murphy and Rosa Flannery, the development officer for Music Generation Laois, allowed me and the other students to bring a harp home. That changed everything. From the second the harp arrived in my house, I immediately felt so drawn to it and just never stopped playing. Like many young people, I found that time quite lonely but having the harp at home gave me something to focus on. I looked forward to my weekly online lessons with Siobhán and I took part in online workshops. Playing the harp became my escape and my comfort. It helped my well-being, gave structure to my weeks and gave me purpose when everything else in the world felt uncertain.

After Covid, I joined the Music Generation ensembles, which opened up a new side of music for me. It helped me move from playing on my own to really listening to others, working as part of a group and supporting and respecting other musicians. It built my confidence, not just as a musician but also as a person. I met new friends who shared the same passion and we still play music together today.

One very special memory from that time was on the day of my confirmation. Little did I know that on that day, I would be up the mountains recording a video. Straight after mass, we headed up the Sliabh Blooms with Siobhán, Catriona McKay and the senior harp ensemble to record a performance for Harp Ireland Day. It is a memory I will always treasure because of the sense of achievement and belonging I felt being part of that group in my earlier days.

As part of the Music Generation Harp Collective, I also had the opportunity to co-write the Laois piece in the suite, “La na Seacht Sion”. This was a real challenge for me, as it pushed me to be creative and to step outside my comfort zone but it was also incredibly rewarding to see our ideas come together and be performed. Performing this in the National Concert Hall in February was an absolute honour. I never imagined I would play there, but I have now performed there four times and that is all thanks to Music Generation.

I have just completed fifth year, and I am hoping to study music after my leaving certificate, with the goal of becoming a music teacher. I truly believe that this path would not have been possible without my experience of Music Generation. In my music class in school, only about half of the students have access to lessons outside of school. I can see the difference that makes – not just in ability, but also in confidence. My experience means I can now help younger harp students in person and by creating videos.

I know how fortunate I have been. My journey with music began in my primary school because Music Generation was there. If it had not been, I genuinely do not know if I would have found this path at all. It has shaped my confidence, my friendships and even my future plans. Music Generation makes music accessible in a real way. Instruments like the harp are often seen as elite, expensive or out of reach, but through this programme, they have become available to students like me. When I walk through those doors every Friday, Rosa and Siobhán will always greet everyone with a big smile. After a long week at school, it is the place that lifts me. It is full of energy, activity and fun. I call it my second home.

My wish is that Music Generation continues to be supported and expanded so that every young person, regardless of their background, has equal access to music and the opportunities it brings. It has made a lasting impact on my life, and I truly believe it can do the same for many more young people in Ireland. I thank everyone, and I will now hand over to Rosaleen Molloy, national director of Music Generation for the closing remarks.

I thank Kiêu. Music Generation is a national programme whose mission is to empower children and young people to realise their full potential through access to, and participation in, high quality subsidised performance music education in their local area. Initiated by our parent company Music Network in 2010, Music Generation is co-funded by U2, The Ireland Funds, the Department of Education and Youth and local music education partnerships, led by education and training boards, ETBs, and in which local authorities play a key role. We also have a partnership programme with the Arts Council of Ireland.

Music Generation focuses on the provision of performance music education, recognised by the Department of Education and Youth as non-mainstream music education, which complements and enriches, but does not replace, the mainstream music curriculum provision of the formal education system. In response to the focus of today’s discussion on creative arts education in Irish schools, from a Music Generation perspective, I would like to highlight three points.

First, our partnerships with schools are mission critical. As an arts-in-education organisation, partnerships with schools are mission critical to our values of access and inclusion. In 2025, approximately 10% of the under-18 population accessed Music Generation activities and we worked with an estimated 27.3% of all primary and 20% of all post-primary schools in the State.

Second, our partnerships with schools enable music as a tool for social inclusion. Participation in music through partnerships with schools can be a powerful tool in addressing educational disadvantage and social inclusion and in supporting children and young people to reach their full potential. We have seen how participation has helped young people to belong and feel included, make friends, experience positive mental health and well-being, feel socially connected, have fun and experience joy in their lives.

Third, our partnerships with schools ignite a spark and inspire progression. Access to a range of quality musical experiences and opportunities in school, in collaboration with principals and classroom teachers, can also be the igniting spark that influences a young person’s decision to want to progress in their musical and artistic journey. Such partnerships give children and young people direct exposure to performing and creative musicians practising in a range of musical genres, styles and traditions and create the direct links into the world of music. Access through schools can also create the supportive environment for longitudinal relationships between young people and musician-educators to be nurtured. Such relationships provide both the inspirational and relational conditions that kick-start progression and participation in out-of-school, youth and community settings, giving young people agency to become musically independent and participate in music in the wider public realm.

I thank Ms Molloy. The opening statement will be published on the committee's website. We might have a few moments at the end to get into the requirements, because I know that is something the witnesses would like to do. I thank Ms Conroy and Ms Molloy for the contributions. I believe that Ms Conroy is going to perform on the harp.

The piece I am going to perform is called "Rosc Catha Natalia", which means, "The Battle Cry for Natalia". I wrote it as part of the Laois piece in the suite "La na Seacht Sion". I will then go into a reel called, "The Cape Breton Fiddlers Welcome to Shetland Reel", by Jerry Holland.

I thank Ms Conroy very much. I believe it is a first for this committee, anyway, to have a performance. Now that we all know that by performing or singing we get unlimited time, I believe we will all be following suit for the next meeting. Next, from Fighting Words, I call Mr. Solomon Traynor.

I will begin by reading a short extract from a short play I wrote many years ago with Fighting Words. It is called "Crushing It", which I feel is somewhat relevant to today's topic.

I didn’t have any friends in primary. Didn’t quite fit in. Most of the boys in my class were all GAA and tracksuits and I was ... not that. So my parents, they started signing me up for various clubs and camps and sports teams. I didn’t really notice it back then, but looking back it’s clear that they thought it would help me make friends. It ... didn’t work out for the most part. Until I went to this one new club. Musical theatre. On my first day at lunch break, this girl called Cassandra walked over to me. She offered me some Tayto and ... changed my life. [It might have been Walkers, but the brand of crisps is not important]. [What I am saying is that things improved. I made a friend]. That’s you. [Someone who could talk to anyone and everyone, no matter who they were. By spending time with you and following your example, I learned how to talk to people again. I learned how to be unapologetically me. I learned it all from you.] You dragged me out of my loneliness, you helped me be a better, happier me. Like sure, I am FAR from flawless. I’m not the social expert you seem to think I am. I’m definitely not a love guru. But I am ... mostly happy. Because you saved me.

Now, on to the main event. I am a former student and current volunteer on and off with Fighting Words. Fighting Words was founded in 2009 with the goal of empowering children and teenagers through creative writing, not just prose but also graphic novels, poetry, playwriting and even songwriting. The organisation runs free workshops, clubs, projects and programmes across the entire island, with 995 workshops in schools in 2025 alone, half of which being from DEIS schools, reaching a total of 18,584 children, Additionally, 75 days of summer camps were run, reaching a further 700 children.

Fighting Words focuses on a fun and positive approach to creative education, encouraging young people to become more confident in their abilities and helping them to make art that truly represents their individual creative voice. Creative education is essential for young people, allowing them to develop their interest and understanding of all subjects, from English to maths and everything in between. In fact, Fighting Words often works with schools on creating stories built around maths. These creative approaches allow for children to feel empowered and capable, boosting their interest in learning. It encourages different ways of thinking, leading to creative problem-solving and a strong sense of accomplishment.

A study on 17-year-olds in Ireland found that structured creative activity strongly benefited cognitive development but unfortunately, these opportunities for creativity become limited as children progress through school. Fighting Words strongly encourages an expanded role for creativity in the junior and senior cycles. A research report on Fighting Words found that it empowers children to learn creatively with a variety of impacts on well-being, the amplification of the teenage voice and improving efficacy, confidence, esteem and resilience.

My personal journey with Fighting Words began at 15 during the lockdowns in 2020, when I joined its weekly write club. This then led to further opportunities, such as being part of its young playwrights programme in 2023 and having the opportunity to see my original writing performed in the Peacock Theatre - a short play called Crushing It, the piece I read an extract from just now. Since then, I have continued to pursue creative writing through my study of drama and film at UCD and I have become a volunteer for Fighting Words, helping with summer camps and getting to see how much it means to the kids and teens who came after me. When I was a teenager, I had struggled a lot with my mental health, particularly social anxiety and self-esteem. Fighting Words gave me a creative outlet to process these complicated feelings and I have seen first-hand I am far from the only one who has been granted that invaluable opportunity.

While it is encouraging to see the Department of Education and Youth’s increasing commitment to creative education, unfortunately, many schools do not have the means to provide this for their students. While I was home-schooled after primary, I know from conversations with peers that many of them have had little opportunity for creative outlet throughout their years in secondary school. Some cite lack a time or a lack of resources, the latter especially applying to those in DEIS schools or rural areas.

It is important that creative education is kept as a priority. Creativity is essential to our understanding of ourselves and the world around us. While the academic application is essential, the emotional and social aspect cannot be understated. Fighting Words has provided and continues to provide young people with a free, safe, creative space where they are able to come together and truly express themselves. I know that I, and many others, are forever grateful for this. I thank the joint committee.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the invitation to come along today. It is a real pleasure to be here to talk about my biggest passion in life, which is music and education. I am a qualified professional and experienced educator in all sectors of the Irish education system, and I have an opinion on all of them, so I am glad to be here to talk about it. I am involved in special education, Gaelscoileanna, secondary and primary schools and I am delighted to be here.

Music has always been my passion in life. From a very young age, I was exposed to the transformative power of music, especially in my family where there is a lot of special needs. While my older sister is non-verbal, music was able to go through those barriers in a form of communication she was unable to express verbally. I was involved in musical theatre and on radio and television many times, so it was no surprise to anyone that I went on to a career where I could foster this love of music and drama in other children.

When I started my secondary school career teaching in Mount Sackville, the question I always had was how could children go through eight years of primary school education, where music is a subject, and still not have a solid basis in the rudiments of music. After observing and working in the Australian education system and seeing specialist teachers in these subjects coming into primary school classes, I could see the need for this in the Irish education system. Upon my return and after a few years of teaching in Irish mainstream primary schools, I began giving CPD courses to teachers in music and The Magic of Music programme was formed.

It was very clear to me that primary teachers, with the best will in the world, could not provide the level of expertise in all subject areas across the board, as per the curriculum demands. Therefore, I diverted full-time from the mainstream and taught The Magic of Music programme in hundreds of schools at all levels to help awaken the musicality within us all in a specialised way. Each lesson The Magic of Music teaches is carefully crafted based on years of experience in multiple sectors, so that it addresses the needs of all pupils in the class by moving quickly and energetically through material in a fun and enjoyable way.

When you would eventually write up a quaver on the whiteboard, having approached it in a million different ways, children would often exclaim, "Oh that is a music note we are doing", but they had already solidly embodied the concept in a physical way without realising they were learning. Each lesson builds on the previous one until the children have a strong grounding in music theory, aural skills and the joy that music brings.

The programme cuts through the elitist idea that music is only for those who can afford it or those who are talented singers and musicians. This gives room for everyone to express their musicality however they wish. I expressed this clearly when I had the privilege of giving a TEDX talk in Dún Laoghaire in 2019, where I proposed the idea that we are all musical and that this needs to be brought out in all children, regardless of their socio-economic background.

As The Magic of Music programme took off, more facilitators came onboard and we were all trained in the same programme so that the music was the same in Cork, Dublin and all over the country. We fostered strong links with the school completion programme at the time, and made a huge difference to attendance rates and music therapy in extremely disadvantaged areas across the country. We were also linked with the DEIS programmes. We brought children together to perform in our National Concert Hall, the Helix Theatre and places where people who live 5 km away felt they did not belong. Some parents took their first steps across the door of the National Concert Hall, and this is something we need to bring to all our schools.

Unfortunately, much of the funding has been redirected from school completion and DEIS projects and is instead being used to fund things like electricity in the school, so children are now missing out on programmes like The Magic of Music completely. Currently, we have a partnership with the Irish Baroque Orchestra funded by the resonate project, where the series of lessons culminates with the orchestra coming out to perform for the children. Harpsichords being wheeled through the streets of inner-city Dublin has now become a reality, which is lovely to see. These children can also now tell you that is a harpsichord rather than a piano, which shows the importance of bringing music into the classroom regardless of socio-economic background.

From a teacher’s point of view of being involved with the programme, we give continuous professional development on-site at no cost to either the school or the teacher. The curriculum becomes demystified in front of their eyes and the evidence is indisputable as they watch their children’s engagement and enjoyment. It means they are being given the tools and confidence to develop the lesson for the rest of the week. This brings us again to the important question of funding for such wonderful things.

I sat on the committee, headed by Gerard Flanagan, for the application of Kylemore College's school of music to bring Dublin city into the music generation programme in 2012. I met many fabulous people who were engaged in music making all around Dublin. The one thing in common for all the groups involved around the table was the lack of certainty in funding for each programme in the year or years ahead.

Creative arts in the education system require commitment to a consistency of funding so that the children are guaranteed the journey they have started will continue and allow them to blossom. It seems access to music education is becoming more and more financially prohibitive, with access only being granted to those with the financial resources to avail of it through private means. Therefore, students across the country miss out on the developmental and psycho-emotional benefits of music, creating a form of educational inequality.

I am delighted to be here and to have a part in seeing this change in Ireland with guaranteed future funding. Thank you.

I thank Ms Dunphy for that. We will now move to members' questions and statements. As the Cathaoirleach has pointed out already, members will have six minutes.

We will start with Deputy Jen Cummins.

I will do mine through interpretive dance-----

Or sing. I will allow the Deputy as much time as she wants if she wants to do that.

It is lovely to have the witnesses all here. It is wonderful to hear music in this room. We come here every week and sometimes we debate things that are very challenging, and people in this country are really facing a lot of difficulties. It has been uplifting to have them play a musical instrument and hear the joy that music and the arts have brought to them, both as young people and as older people who are working in that field. I am delighted to see Mr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin at the back. I know he has not spoken. I have known him, Ms Dunphy and Mr. Traynor for many years and it is great to see them here. I come from a youth arts background. My whole involvement in politics is because of youth theatre and my involvement in it when I was very young. It radicalised me into realising that everybody did not have the same opportunities that I had. From that, I became involved in youth work.

When I was working as a youth worker, youth arts motivated me to make sure that the young people I was working with had the best opportunity they could and could use drama to explore issues that were not a possibility in everyday life. I went on to do postgraduate study in drama in Trinity, and was delighted to be able to play, make and do things like that. When I worked in the school completion programme, which was when I met Ms Dunphy, I wanted that to happen for the young people who we worked with. As was rightly said here today, many young people in this country do not have access to music, art, drama or writing. It is like an alien feature, where people have never been into galleries or the National Concert Hall, and they do not feel they belong. As a country that has such a strong arts feel, that feeling needs to continue to be challenged. It is great to have the witnesses here to give testament to that.

The challenge is that these organisations are brilliant, but there is probably not enough going around, because if there are still young people or adults who feel excluded, we have a long way to go. My question for Music Generation is about how people get involved. I read through the document. Is that done through a school? One of my biggest challenges when I worked as a co-ordinator of a school completion programme was the fact that when Tusla took over, we got rid of universal programmes that allowed children to come into school to experience things like the magic of music, any arts programme, or any programme that was going to allow them to participate in school. Attendance increased on the days when we had arts programmes in schools. We are seeing a shocking situation with attendance in schools in this country. For me, that is evidence that we should never have removed the universal programmes in the first place, because there is more to learning than just sitting there. It is about participation. When people love being in school, it will make it easier to learn and participate in all subjects, but I am digressing. What would the witnesses say to the young people here about how to get involved in their organisations or in any others that they know? What do the people who are working in the field who are not the young people but are older - my age - need to make sure they can broaden their programmes to every school and community in the country?

Music Generation is fundamentally built on the principle of partnership. Without the vital support of the Department of Education and Youth and the really positive partnerships that we have with the Department, there would be no Music Generation. It is important that we acknowledge that and the amount of support that has made Music Generation possible.

To answer the question of how people get involved, there is now a local music education partnership in every city and county in Ireland. The partnerships are led by education and training boards with very close, important partnerships with local authorities and other organisations. Every local music education partnership works with schools. In Ms Conroy's beautifully scripted story, she really illustrated the power and importance of having the door of access opened through an inspiring principal, a committed classroom teacher, a wonderful local development officer and their music generation programme, and an inspiring harp teacher, Ms Siobhán Buckley, who is with us today. When all of those forces work together in a co-ordinated, strategic way to support young people having the door of access opened, that is how people get involved. Parents, guardians, partner organisations and the wider community need to be around all of that. For us, schools are vital to how children get involved and to opening the door to after-school activity, because there is only so much time within school.

In answer to the Deputy's second question, we need continued partnership. We are fortunate that the Department of education is our valued and critical partner in Music Generation. Our genesis, as the Deputy may be aware, was in a feasibility study that was commissioned by the Government and produced by our parent company in 2003 for a national system of local music education services. Incrementally over the last 23 years, we have built the infrastructure that had been absent theretofore but is now in place. For the future, it is about building upon that.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. The arts are a critical part of society and it is great to have the witnesses in. The reels Ms Conroy played at the end were beautiful trad music. I think I have heard them at the fleadh before. It was nice to here them.

I was lucky growing up, in that I had significant opportunities to play music. I grew up playing both in school and through our local Comhaltas. I got to play in the Fleadh Cheoil on many occasions. It opens doors to people. Music is a hugely important part of our culture and something that we need to constantly invest in.

I was chair of the youth and arts committee in Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board, GRETB, so I have seen the work that Mr. Eric Cunningham and his team do with Music Generation in Galway and Roscommon. It is phenomenal stuff. Even reaching into marginalised, minority communities, particularly in cases where girls sometimes do not get to have the same opportunities as boys, and trying to get girls out of their homes and included in society, was done in a really effective and clever way.

We are coming up to budget time. Everyone will be asking for what they need. Ms Molloy said in her first point on her requirements that Music Generation needed increased financial investment, as outlined in the programme for Government. Does she have figures for what she might need or what would be the optimum situation if she had all the funding she needed to provide the best possible service? Has she put together estimates of what she needs financially?

Not yet. The process is beginning to be prepared now and those submissions will be made to the Department of education later. We will be working closely with officials in the curriculum and policy, CAP, unit of the Department. It is important to affirm that we welcome that, in the programme for Government, Music Generation is referenced as one of the organisations for which increased funding is being committed. That is a testament to Government and Department of education's commitment to Music Generation and the musical futures of children and young people.

This may be more relevant to Ms Conroy, Mr. Duignan and Mr. Traynor growing up as students, but from the point of view of opportunities, particularly in school, if they had their time all over again and were back in first year or even primary school, what things do they think were missing that we could enhance in the school system to make sure that everyone had a chance to have exposure to a musical instrument or to engage in music, the arts or whatever was the case? What would they recommend? I am not trying to create a trick question. Sorry.

Probably at the start of secondary school, having more access to instruments and funding of instruments in schools. In my secondary school, we do not have a harp, so I have to bring in my own harp, and sometimes that is tricky. It would be better if one was there.

It is not too easy to get a harp onto a school bus.

No. Just bringing in instruments and making them available to students would help.

Do we put enough emphasis on the arts, including expressive arts, in schools?

On art as in drawing and painting, yes, but art is so much more than that. The emphasis is on that sort of mainstream art of drawing and painting. Everything else is left to do yourself.

How do we fix that?

I do not know.

I was not in formal secondary education beyond first year but I can speak to the experiences of my peers. It might be apparent from my opening statement that I have a heavy interest in drama and theatre. That has been very inaccessible for a lot of people I know. A lot of people have not had the opportunity to even see a play until they reached college. That needs to be more accessible to secondary students. Partnerships could be found between schools and theatres to make that more accessible. I know it happens on occasion but is often reserved for schools that are able to do that. That part of the arts being more open would be really beneficial. I have had a lot of conversations where people said they wish they had been involved sooner and that they had seen a show sooner.

Is there a way similar to what Music Generation does with music schools to bring a drama version to schools? There might not always be teachers with the skill set to allow for the full exploration of it in school so could it be brought in?

Fighting Words does that to an extent. It runs playwriting workshops for secondary level, which allow people to get their foot in the door and develop that interest. There is room for it to come into the classroom further, however. It is an eternally relevant form of art. It speaks to a lot of people in a very direct way that a lot of young people would benefit from.

Does Mr. Hetherington want to comment?

I want to emphasise the demand for services across all art forms. We all represent different interests of young people and organisations with expertise in the areas. In the National Gallery of Ireland's context, we receive about 1 million visitors on site every year and another 1 million people engage with our digital platforms in a variety of ways. Of that number, about 400,000 people are involved in our life-long education programmes. That can be broken down further into approximately 200,000 young people who are involved in our programmes. The context for that is that per capita, the visitors who come to the National Gallery of Ireland and engage with it are a significant percentage of the population. When one compares it to other countries, we are up there at the top of the world in visitation and engagement across all art forms. The demand for some of the services we experience versus our capacity is now at a point where we need to look at new models.

I thank all of the witnesses for being here today and the lovely creative pieces they did for us. They were very moving. I was very moved by Solomon's opening statement when I read it and when I saw him in person. As parents, all we want is for our kids to find their place in the world if they are not that traditional GAA lad or whatever the case may be. I am delighted he found his way. I felt similarly about Mandalena's piece. They are such a great example of when young people are engaged with properly and their niche is found. I wish her the best of luck with her master's. Ms Dunphy mentioned the school completion programme. It is close to my heart. Although I do not believe it was in the opening statement provided, she mentioned that funds were diverted for school bills and things like that. When I looked into the opening statement, I was not quite sure if there is a funding pot for the school completion programme and salaries, etc. had gone up so it was diverted or if it was do with the cap on therapies. Will she expand on that?

The process of school completion and the ability of school completion co-ordinators like Deputy Cummins to get us into schools was brilliant when we formed our partnership with them. What changed was a cap on funding and there was less funding. The salaries of people in the jobs went up with increments every year but the amount of money coming into the projects was not changed. When Tusla took over, the money given to school completion programmes had to be spent on what were considered target children. Programmes like mine that went into schools and dealt with the whole class were pigeonholed into just ten or 12 out of the whole school, who were considered very disadvantaged, rather than looking at the school as a whole and that the area was disadvantaged. As for the justification for getting in a programme, that meant it was expensive but the main thing was the money was diverted to wages. It did not go up and there also was the fact that it was pigeonholed to target children. That was a real trouble. When I worked with school completion, my point was always that if the children considered most disadvantaged did not have the other children in the class to set an example of how to interact with the arts, it was not as beneficial to them. Ours is a very energetic programme; it is designed to engage all of the children from the ADHD child to the child who has not had his or her breakfast that morning and everybody else in the class. It worked really well when it included all the children in the class. Also, for the children who are taken out for target programmes, they are being targeted again by picking them out from their school peers and saying they are more disadvantaged than so and so. When they were just targeted within a group, it was not as obvious. There are a number of things but the main one is funding. It always was. As time went on, school completion co-ordinators were coming to me saying they were sorry, that the programme was absolutely brilliant and made such a difference to the attendance and emotional well-being of the children they dealt with but they just did not have the funding to guarantee me. Every year, we did not know if they could have us in that year or not. The children see you one year - it is important to have music one year and the following year there was no music. They feel let down by us even though it was out of our control.

That seems so strange that we stopped taking kids out for extra resources and targeting but we still do in this case. It does not make sense. Has there been any increase in the funding Ms Dunphy's organisation might yet?

No, it has been the opposite. We are not funded by the Department of education - we are not as lucky as Music Generation or the National Gallery of Ireland - so we have to depend on schools prioritising music over sport, etc. They should not be made to choose between drama, art, sport and music. It should be a pot of funding for them to access. More and more, unless money is ring-fenced and they have to use it on the arts or music, the temptation is to spend it on the electricity bill or heating. Schools are between a rock and a hard place. If they do not get Government funding-----

Does Ms Dunphy's organisation have a pathway to getting funding from the Department or does it have to be through the school? The other organisations are funded.

No, it has traditionally just been through the schools. The only partnership we have had recently is with the Irish Baroque Orchestra. It has a great interest in music education in schools and reaching the grassroots level of very disadvantaged schools in the inner city, which is why we are wheeling harpsichords through the streets of Dublin city. It is wonderful. Children who would not normally get access are getting access.

We do not have an actual pathway, but we would love one.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh ar fad as ucht a bheith anseo. I was watching the opening statements online. I heard them all, but it went silent as soon as Kiêu started to play. Maybe I will use my six minutes for Kiêu to play. I am only joking.

I know first-hand the transformative power of the arts. As a múinteoir, I was teaching in a primary school. My first degree was in speech and drama. That was around the time that the curriculum included drama. That was very exciting. That is when I became a primary school teacher. I loved teaching art. I went back and did a masters in art in Cork Institute of Technology, CIT. I just loved it all except singing. The kids used to have to sing. I could not sing. I taught music, banjo, bodhrán and feadóg stáin. I know and appreciate it so much. As a teacher, I have experience with Fighting Words as Gaeilge, which is fantastic. My son goes to Music Generation.

On the creative schools programme, we were very lucky. My experience is limited to primary schools. Regarding the creative schools programme, is there anything in particular that the council is doing to target secondary school students? I was a learning support and special needs teacher for a long time. How is that programme adapted to special needs students? How does it target rural and DEIS settings?

There were a couple of questions. I will work through them in order. Regarding prioritisation, we have a designation called small rural schools, and DEIS schools, Youthreach centres and Irish language medium schools are prioritised for participation in the programme. If they apply, they are very likely to be offered a place in programme. In each of the schools, and it goes across primary, post-primary and Youthreach settings, we work with young people in lots of different contexts. We also have a separate alternative settings programme where we have worked with the high support unit in the Oberstown school and with the youth encounter projects. From September, we will have ten of the schools in hospital settings that will also come into the programme. For us in the programme, it is very important that all young people, no matter where they are accessing school, can have access to creative schools. We know it has had a profound effect in those settings.

How it works in reality is that each school has a slightly different journey because every school is different. Every school is at a different point in its development and every school community has different needs. At post-primary level, the challenge is getting engagement in the exam years because curriculum pressure creates an issue. Post-primary schools are larger than primary schools, so if we want a programme like creative schools to have an impact, we need to make sure that the school community as a whole has a multitude of opportunities to engage. The way that works well is that it is a two-year programme. It gives time for things to grow and develop. We have seen schools connected with their well-being framework. We have seen schools connected with their school level planning and use creative schools to develop something that is important for school as a whole. Creativity is cross-curricular.

Every time I go to a creative school, it is really different. I have been at things as diverse as a pizza party in the garden because they built a pizza oven and horticulture and planting came through as the theme that they wanted to explore. It is very multidisciplinary. Mr. Duignan made the point that art is often just considered as visual art, but the arts ecology and arts practice develop every day. Artists are constantly advancing the boundaries of what is art. As the schools are matched with a trained creative associate who in many instances is a professional artist, they are open to that kind of realm of different possibilities. We will get a message from a creative associate saying their school is interested in doing jazz outside with drums on Tuesdays. Where are we going to start with that? The scale of ambition that schools have when they get into the programme is profound because young people are driving the decision-making, and their ability to imagine and create is often far greater than any of the adults that they work with.

I might have missed a third of the Deputy's question.

It was about DEIS and special schools. How does the council adapt for special needs?

Regarding special schools, there are a number of opportunities within that. Special schools are considered a core part of the programme. They are prioritised for inclusion. The creative associates who work those schools are supported in their practice to develop, for example, how they do a consultation with non-verbal students. What sort of ways can we adapt artistic practice? Alongside that, schools can let us know as the programme is progressing if they have an additional access need. If they have started to plan something and they are saying that their autism class is not going to be able to engage with this without extra time and extra resources, they can come back to the programme and say, "Here is an access need. Can you meet it?" We do not ask them to predefine that at the beginning. They can apply at any point in the two years and come back to us and ask for additional access costs with the view that the programme is as inclusive as possible in every school in the way that it needs to be. Sometimes, the access need is about getting something brought into the school. We have schools on the islands and in every county. There is often a challenge there. Sometimes, it is about adapting and giving more time to students to ensure they can fully engage in the programme and feel part of the creative school’s community.

A worry that I would have is that our timetables are so overloaded. We have seen Gaeilge being reduced by 30 minutes. They said that students can use it informally throughout all the other subjects. That happened with drama, as in, "Use that while you are teaching the Gaeilge." I am finding that is happening with ceol. For example, we sang a song as Gaeilge in ceol. The curriculum is overloaded. My worry is that the arts or Irish are what is pushed down. Do any of the witnesses wish to speak to that?

I will come in briefly again. One of our roles in the Arts Council is to advise on curriculum development. We were very lucky to work with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, on the development of the new leaving certificate subject in drama, film and theatre, which is a real boost in terms of another seat at the leaving certificate table, even though the leaving certificate is not the be-all and end-all. However, having a senior level subject in the creative arts is significant. It has resonated with young people. It is a number of the creative schools that were the first schools to pilot that curriculum, which we are really happy with. We are working with the NCCA on the new visual art curriculum and we are just finishing an engagement with it on the new primary arts curriculum. Our role is always in that advisory role as well.

That is good to know.

I will start with Ms Dunphy and pick up on the issue of accessibility and the availability of these programmes or similar programmes to children. Regarding the challenge of cost and affordability if there are not harps or instruments at schools and it is €30 for a half hour session in some music schools, what can be done to bridge that gap and expand the types of programmes that we are talking about here?

One of the most accessible places for primary and secondary schools is their local education centre. It would be very helpful if the local education centres were furnished with harps, ukuleles, drums or a set of samba drums on a rental scheme, so that the local schools know that if they want to have a music day or music week, they could go somewhere. Right now, there is a real gap there. Some education centres have rental schemes, but some do not. Even the ones that have them are not very well-organised or well-funded. If schools are not lucky enough to be involved with Music Generation, creative Ireland schools or stuff like that, there needs to be another way that schools are able to apply to have a programme. For example, if they wanted to have Magic of Music into the school, first they would have to know about it. It is very difficult as an organisation that is not funded by the Government to get that out there, even though I am 21 years doing Magic of Music. It was always hit and miss for the schools as to whether they could afford it the following year. Even if there was local funding that the education centres could be involved with, that would be very useful. There is a list of programmes like mine. There are many other programmes that are not nationally funded.

Are we working towards a particular strategy? A lot of this seems to be dependent on the individual principal, teacher or programme that the individual principal happens to know about it and joining that together. It does not seem like a systematic approach. Is there one or is there a need for one?

There is definitely a need for one. The Deputy is spot on there. If a principal is a GAA fan, then they find the money for it in that school. If another principal is interested in drama, they will bring drama into the school. The schools that I engage with mainly are schools where the principals are very passionate about music. They will do anything they can to get the money in for music, whether it is a philanthropist or whatever way they have found a funding pot. It is not sustainable. Therefore, they could get it one year and not get it the next year. What we are saying to young people is that they can have music for ten weeks this year, if they are lucky enough, but they might not get it next year. There is no development there.

There is this idea of whether there was music in the house. For an awful lot of people, music is not in the house and they have to pick it up elsewhere. They do not have the support of parents because they did not have it themselves. At a later stage, you can see they are incredibly musical or artistic but it was never nurtured or developed because they were not exposed to those kind of supports.

The other thing is that everybody has a different form of musicality.

Yes.

One child might not have the dexterity to play the harp, especially in a special needs school, but that does not mean they should not have music lessons. The magic of music lessons would have been very based on movement, responding to music and percussion instruments. It does not matter whether you are playing it right or not - you are having fun with music. That has to be seen as important as well. There are many schools I walk in the door of that do not even have a set of 30 percussion instruments, never mind ukuleles, harps or tin whistles. They do not have the basics. That needs to be addressed by the Government. Every single school, whether they have funding or not, should be provided with a set of musical instruments so that all the children can bash a tambourine.

Does Ms Molloy want to add to that?

In Music Generation, musical instruments are provided within both the community and school contexts. The way some of the musical instrument banks have been established is quite innovative. In County Mayo, one of the first instrument banks through Music Generation that was established was done in partnership with the local library service. In the same way you can walk into the library to get your book free of charge, you can also do the same with musical instruments and several other-----

There are toy libraries now and there could be an instrument library too.

Exactly. Many other local authority library services have actually adopted that model. In 2025, there were 27 musical instrument banks active in Music Generation with an estimated 41,628 instruments available through the programmes we offer. Our parent company, Music Network, also runs the music capital scheme, which provides support for musical instrument purchase to music organisations, including schools and youth groups as well.

I thank everyone for coming in today. I especially thank Solomon, Kiéu, Mandalena and Cillian because they brought something different. They gave us a whole new view on things, given their own point of view and lived experience of this. This morning, I was with the INTO in Buswells for its pre-budget briefing. There were requirements and demands it was looking for pre-budget, but a lot of what it was looking for was based on teacher support for the social development of students. In numerous opening statements, each speaker at various stages spoke about well-being, inclusion, creativity, curiosity, communication and collaboration. Each of the students are ticking all of those boxes that we look to be ticked and want to see ticked in order to achieve national policy and give direction.

I loved Kiéu's story of being in sixth class when Covid struck and Music Generation gave him the harp to bring home with him. My daughters were learning the ukulele at the time. You have never really experienced a music lesson unless you have seen 28 primary school kids with an instrument playing remotely and a teacher trying to teach. I do not know how they muted everybody but that had a lasting impact on every one of those students and the development of every one of those students. I can see it has had a lasting impact on these students as well because they had an outlet during that time. It was an outlet that served a purpose and brought them out the other side possibly a better, more improved version of who they went in as. This is very much the case for Solomon as well. His introduction and piece from the play he wrote was very powerful.

As Deputy Dempsey said, every parent wants to see a student finding their place, making the most of it and realising their potential. I think it was Ms Molloy who said the whole basis of the programme is empowerment and ensuring students realise their full potential. The confidence that it gives these students means it is very likely, based on the work of the four young people today, especially Cillian as he finished off his opening statement very strongly, that we will definitely see them back in these chambers at a later stage. I better tell my Cavan colleague about that - I meant Senator Joe O'Reilly and not Senator Tully, apologies - but that is what we want to see.

I cut Ms Molloy off because her time was up. She already went through the feasibility report created in 2003 that was the basis and origin of Music Generation. Has there been a follow-up report? Do we know where that is going next and what the strategy is for Music Generation? That gives us an ask. She might come in on that one really quickly. I know she has an ask at the bottom that she did not get through either.

I appreciate that and thank the Senator. The report I referenced was the Government-supported A National System of Local Music Education Services - Report of a Feasibility Study, which our parent company, Music Network, produced in 2003. What sets it apart from many reports in our sector is the fact it has not sat on a shelf and has galvanised a significant amount of support through the Department of Education and Youth, for which we are particularly grateful, through philanthropy and, crucially, through our local music education partnerships in which education and training boards and local authorities play a key role.

I am really pleased to report to the committee that because of the energy, enthusiasm and commitment of so many working in the arts and education arena with a commitment to performance music education, we have today a national infrastructure for performance music education. What was set out in the feasibility study at the time was the need for the then vocational education committees, VECs, along with the local authorities through the then county development boards, to get behind that. It is remarkable that we have made those strides. In terms of the future, Music Generation is beginning to prepare its next five year plan, which will run from 2027 to 2031. It is through that strong commitment to partnership that we have with the Department of Education and Youth, and with the local music education partnerships, that we can continue to strengthen what is at the heart of our mission, which is improving and empowering children's and young people's lives through music.

The Senator mentioned research. Since Music Generation was formally established in 2010, we have engaged with research partners, including St. Patrick's College in DCU. We carried out quite an in-depth period of research with it in our earlier years, which resulted in the publication of Possible Selves in Music. We are also working very closely with the Department of education on ESRI research, which is looking at the impact of creative schools and creative youths.

If Ms Molloy sings, the Cathaoirleach will let her continue.

That is very true. The clock goes off if you can sing, perform, do headstands or whatever you can do.

I did not bring my conductor self today but-----

Ms Molloy can sing the response. I call Senator Tully.

I thank everyone for their opening statements and contributions. I give a special welcome to Cillian from Cavan. Cillian is a pupil in Breifne College, where I taught for many years. It was before his time but I taught there for many years and my sons attend there as well. I think I met Cillian before through Comhairle na nÓg.

Yes.

Senator Scahill is right. Cillian is an up and coming politician and is very capable.

I saw the beautiful mural that he referenced when I was in the school recently for the leaving certificate graduation. It was a school that did not offer music for many years. It does now. My son did not do music for his junior certificate. He sampled different subjects during transition year, and when it came to choosing his subjects in fifth year for his leaving certificate, he did not know what he wanted to do. I told him to pick a practical subject to vary it out, but he came back to me and said:

I really did not want to do a science subject. I am not going to go down that road. Can I please do music?

I agreed because the interest was there. He is doing well, and his teacher is very impressed. For someone who did not do it in the junior certificate, he really picked it up well. He is in the middle of his leaving certificate exams, so we will see how the results come out but I am confident, and so is he, that he will do well in it.

It is great to have something like music because no matter where someone goes in life, it is a form of communication. A person will always be welcome in anybody's company if they can lift an instrument and play a tune.

In relation to all of the different projects that the witnesses' organisations offer to schools and communities, is the demand much greater than their capabilities to supply it? How do they select which schools or groups to go with? If there was more funding provided through, for example, the Department of Education and Youth, could a lot more be offered or would it take a lot more than that? Would it take a lot more individuals getting involved?

As some of my colleagues said, it is often down to an inspiring principal or a teacher with an interest. Some schools are innovative and will welcome and look for access to every programme that is going and that they can possibly manage, whereas others do not. As Ms Dunphy said, it is part of the new primary curriculum to offer art. This includes the visual arts, as well as music and drama, but what is offered in some schools is very limited, and those children are missing out. Will the witnesses answer those couple of questions?

I will speak to those points from the National Gallery of Ireland's perspective. One of the things that we have found important in the development of our programme is a mixed model of on-site, off-site in the community and digital activities which meet the needs of very different schools. Every school has a unique need, and every class and the pupils within it may have unique needs as well. Having a flexible and adaptable approach that is curriculum aligned and that works in partnership with teachers and schools is critical to how we respond to that need.

To give the committee an idea of the demand, we receive approximately ten or 12 times the number of applications that we can accommodate for the gallery's transition year programmes. Our model currently has on-site or digital transition year programmes, but the demand is 12 times what we can deliver on an annual basis for that programme alone. That is replicated across all of our programmes.

One of the great things about digital delivery is that it is cost-effective. One of the great things about having a building and a space in which we can deliver programmes, and which many others might not have, is that we can facilitate schools in lots of different ways and we can introduce poverty-proofing measures that allows them to get to the gallery, experience it and then learn with it.

It is when we go off-site and deliver projects in all 26 counties in this country and across the Border, that is where the time to work with schools becomes more intensive. We need to be able to understand the local context, the school's needs and the specific geographic and other barriers that may exist to it participating in some of the programmes.

In our case, we have measures that include the delivery of materials, so it is not as expensive as musical instruments. However, we can work in partnership with schools on materials, as well as with experts and facilitators to help them align even further with educational programmes in schools and curriculum needs too.

I just wanted to come in on the demand issue. One thing to recognise is that the organisations present probably represent a much wider ecosystem. There are local authority arts officers, local arts centres, theatre companies, individual artists and orchestras all over the country who have a commitment to working with children and young people.

Where we feel that in the Arts Council is in the demand for our funding to these organisations. Currently the demand for our funding is 66% higher than we can service. While recognising that each school, county and town has individual needs, it is in an ecology that we can support children and young people. It is by recognising that this piece over here works well here. There is no one single model.

One thing that assists school is the increasing designation of posts of responsibility that have arts and creativity in those titles. At post-primary level, we have seen a number of those. It is a little ad hoc and it seems to be a way to sustain a focus on arts and creativity.

As we know, if someone is given responsibility for something, there is a little bit of extra capacity and value placed on that. As part of ongoing teacher professional development, the ongoing development of school management and initial teacher education, we are keen to see that the role of arts and creativity is more fully embedded in that space.

I am up next. I thank the witnesses. I missed the really nice parts of today. I should have stayed here because I was trying to get a school project announced and did not get it. I should have stayed down here and listened to some nice music for a while. I thank the witnesses for being here.

As someone who spent 16 years primary teaching, I am always bowled over by the talent of Ireland's young people. We are the education and youth committee, so it is very important to have the young voices here. I thank them for being here today.

If the witnesses will bear with me, I want to go deep on something. When I qualified as a teacher in 2006, it was so generalised. We had to teach 13 subjects in a day, and all of these initiatives that Deputy Ní Raghallaigh referred to were loaded on the single classroom teacher. We get fabulous instruction in the teacher training colleges. I remember the arts lecturer, in particular, was fantastic and so creative. Their ideas were way out there and would blow our minds.

Teachers then go into a classroom, become overloaded and go back to processes. They go onto Pinterest for their arts lessons and tell the kids to bring in cornflakes boxes and toilet rolls so they can all do the very same thing that will shut down their creativity because it has to look a certain way. Music comes very packaged up in the lesson plans. Drama is slotted in here and there. We are going to play siopa or turas go dtí an ollmhargadh for Irish, and that is it. That is the students' drama class.

I have been looking at this more and more since I stepped away from teaching and into this role. The idea of a generalised education is probably doing a disservice to the teaching of the Irish language, sports, creative arts, drama, creative literacy and the visual arts. Do the witnesses have a view on that? In the Asian model, a specialised teacher seems to come in for every subject. A new adult coming in every 40 minutes sounds like it could be a bit frazzling to a youngster. However, in the continental European model, the core subjects of numeracy and literacy are led by a teacher and then during the day someone who is passionate about what they do comes in to lead a lesson on the visual arts, music or whatever.

Our committee visited Finland a few months ago. We met other teachers and asked them what they teach. They specialise in one, two or three things to a high level and they are energised. The subject that I was passionate about when I taught was history, so I took a group of children to a battlefield in Belgium. We bought a medal on eBay and went over to trace the soldier. We would have gone to the other side of the world for that project.

We need teachers to be specialising in areas. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that. What would it look like?

I feel very passionate about what the Cathaoirleach said. From my experience of having specialist teachers coming into schools that I worked in Australia, I found that it really worked. Teachers who come on my summer teachers' course or attend a day at the Magic of Music ask me how I came up with all of those ideas. They tell me that I am brilliant and this and that for bringing that music into the classroom, but I have also been a classroom teacher at primary and secondary levels, and I can tell the committee that I did not bring that same level of expertise into my art or PE lessons, which were terrible. The children I had for the year would have amazing music, but they would not have really good PE or art. With my hand on my heart, with all of the passion I had for music all through the years, when I was doing primary school teaching at the mainstream level, my lessons were not as good as what they are in the Magic of Music because I did not have time to do them. I did not have the time to put the resources into them, and it comes down to that.

The passion is infectious. The student picks it up from a teacher and it sparks something.

Yes.

I want to let others in.

What is really important is recognising that the arts can be mixed in with everything else. Obviously, we can make giant sweeping changes in the education system. That is the model I grew up with when I was in primary school. Specialist teachers came in to teach art, music, theatre and all of that. With programmes, such as the ones we have in the National Gallery like My Primary School is at the Gallery or Your Gallery at School, if we have the opportunity to spread them out more in Ireland, we could then spread that passion and, hopefully, infect all of the schools like that.

We are bringing fabulous creative expertise in. It is being helicoptered in and once a programme has been delivered, it has to move on to another school. There is a huge risk of missing talented young people along the way and not sparking interest. I want to try to build you up more. It is hit and miss because these wonderful organisations that lead out are limited by budget, time and everything else. Could Ms Conroy comment on that?

Yes. If playing an instrument or drama is introduced into the daily work of primary schools, it could open up many opportunities for young people and remove those barriers early on. Some people do not have access. Students who have access to music tend to be more confident and more engaged, whereas others might not have had the same opportunity to develop those skills. It highlights how important equal access is because there is talent in everybody, people just need an opportunity to develop it.

I ask Cillian for his views on that.

As was said earlier, it is up to the school and school management. In Breffni and the creative schools, we took what was done and ran with it. We have been finished for almost two years and it is as if the programme is still in place. We are still doing creative schools activities. However, in many other schools once the two years were up, things went back to normal.

That is the risk. Everything you are doing it is incredible but it is limited by time and financial constraints. Programmes have to move on to the next school or run out. My time has run out. We might have some extra questions.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee today. I missed some fabulous music at the start. I will definitely go back and watch the video. My niece is a beautiful harpist. It is the most fabulous instrument. I will say something that is probably a bit silly but I watched "Britain's Got Talent" with my kids recently. There was an Irish girl on it playing the harp. When they brought out the harp, Simon Cowell thought, "Oh God", but it was beautiful. It opened people's eyes and minds to how fabulous an Irish instrument it is. It is glorious. I cannot wait to listen to the video of this meeting.

I was brought up in Navan and went to a Navan town school. I started in school in 1978. When I began in school we were divided into the robins, thrushes, warblers and hummingbirds. Whatever people think about nuns, I found all of the nuns fabulous at the time. Sr. Annunciata brought us into a massive hall and we sang every day. Children need breaks. I am sure Senator Tully feels as I do, that sometimes when we are sitting in the Seanad debating legislation for two or three hours, your bum is killing you, you are sitting on a seat and you want to get up and move. Music and arts do that.

In school we sang every day without fail. It was fabulous. We sang in different harmonies. We sang the song "Kookaburra sits on the old gum tree". In secondary school, we had an option of doing violin and piano. It was a Mercy school with nuns, including as principal, and all of that type of thing. Music was heavily driven by the nuns. I had a great start. I got into The Sound of Music when I was six and played Liesl when I was 16. That was in Navan but I felt like I was on Broadway. The musical society did so much for me. I could not agree more with the witnesses about wanting to bring music education and the arts into schools.

There is no space for music in my children's school. Space is probably a major issue for schools. I have a daughter in a class of 36, which is a very large class. My other daughter is in a class of 26 or 27. Space is at a premium, which probably hinders how much music schools can do. Much to the delight of myself and my husband, when they come home they play the tin whistle together. A wonderful person in our community, who is driven by people who are really into this, Lisa Rooney Smith in Kilmessan, meets kids after school every Friday and brings them to a local hall where they do choir and drama. We are going to a show they are putting on tomorrow night. That has brought on my kids so much. It will help with confidence when doing a presentation as part of a job interview in the future. Music education has so much of value.

One of the problems is space. Funding is another. How do we help with equality of access? How many primary schools in Ireland provide children with the opportunity for music education? Do we know what it would cost per primary school? Ms Dunphy mentioned schools not having instruments. One can see that they do not. There are tin whistles in our school. That is not the fault of schools; it is due to space and funding.

I went to the opening of St. Mary's Special School in Navan about two weeks ago, which is for children with moderate to extreme special needs. There were no great speeches. It was all music and one could see what all of the teachers had done with the children, including drums, singing and poetry. It is so important.

My questions concern equality of access. How many primary schools in Ireland do the witnesses think give students the opportunity for music education? How much would it cost per primary school? How do we help the witnesses with equality of access?

On equality of access, it has been mentioned briefly but I will provide more context to the ESRI research we anticipate this year. That is a partnership between ourselves, the Department of Education and Youth and the Department of children. It is a cross-Government commissioned piece. It sets out to understand the impact and reach of everything that has fallen under the creative youth plan over the past five years and to point to the consistently underserved young people that we might have missed or assess whether we have done our job in reaching every young person.

As is always the case with ESRI research, it would be significant in terms of pointing the future way, in particular about how we reach seldom heard young people. That research is in the context of the creative youth plan, which involves a number of Departments and ourselves working together constructively. No national plan is perfect and has universal provision. That is never possible. In terms of ensuring that a number of Departments and ourselves are aligned in what we are doing, it has made significant inroads. There is a beautiful data mapper which shows every school in Ireland that has had access to a creative youth programme over the past five years. It is a jamboree of dots across every county. It is an uplifting moment when one sees the scale of the reach.

I thank Ms Walsh.

Thought needs to be put into reinstating funding for the school completion programme. The valuable thing was that someone on the ground knew all of those schools intimately and the needs for each. They knew that one school needed music, while others needed art or drama and that that would benefit particular children. The programmes need somebody on the ground in communities who knows such information. That has been taken away from vulnerable communities. It is a crying shame. That could be so easily reinstated.

I thank Ms Murphy. That is a very good point.

We will have a second round of questions, with three minutes per member this time. They can have more time. I hear somebody played Liesl and the tin whistle. If they can bring out those talents, we can put a zero behind the time. I remind members that the INTO is across the street and if members have time, its representatives would appreciate if we could call over to meet them before we conclude.

I talked so much the last time that I did not leave enough time for the young people to answer. I will remind them of the question because there have been a lot. What would they say to other young people to encourage them to get involved or to put pressure on their schools to engage in these programmes? Any of the witnesses can answer first.

The first thing would definitely be to get involved in absolutely everything. I am here because of about five different things I have been asked to take part in, to which I said “Yes”. They have a knock-on effect. The more things you say “Yes” to, it exponentially grows into being somewhere like this. It is about getting involved in everything available to you. There is no "Do this, do that" and that is what you need. It is about trying everything and something will stick.

We are lucky that people can come into the gallery for free. The one thing I would say is to come in, see the exhibition and talk to people. Everyone is so friendly, even the attendants. People can chat with them and they have so much knowledge on everything. We also provide a lot of tours that are free for classes. The kids might want to bother their teachers and let them know this is an option. It is an easily arranged by sending an email to the tours. Those are the two main things because as soon as people come in, they get to see and become inspired. That can then continue into the classroom.

Play music and just give it a go. You do not have to be perfect. It is not about being the best; it is about enjoying it and seeing where it takes you. You might discover something you love, like I did. It had a big impact on me outside of school as well. It has helped me become more confident and more comfortable speaking in front of others and willing to take opportunities. Those are skills that carry into school and everyday life.

In the case of Fighting Words specifically, as well as being involved through schools, there is a lot of stuff it does that stands on its own, like the Write Club, which is how I got involved. I very much encourage young people to go for that. I also recommend enlisting friends. It can be daunting for people to get into a creative space on their own when they do not know people. While they can get to know people through it, there is a lot to be said for tagging a best mate to come along. It can help forge stronger bonds and let both take more risks. There is a lot to be said for doing it that way.

The arts are important and many students do not get the opportunity to experience them in school. While there are many opportunities offered across a broad range of schools and through all of the witnesses’ organisations and others, is there a way to increase output to as many students as possible?

A few months ago, Senator Scahill and I, along with some members of the committee, visited a school in Ballyfermot. It had a music room fully equipped with a lot of musical instruments. It is not something we see in most schools, even in primary schools. There needs to be more investment in the arts in all of our schools and communities across the board to encourage everybody to have access to that. It can be expensive for people to buy the equipment, especially musical equipment, although some other art forms are less expensive to engage in. I do not really have a question but I wish to say that it is important we invest an awful lot more, as a country, in the arts. They open opportunities.

I am the next speaker. Our committee travelled to Finland earlier this year. The library there was incredible, so much so that it was the number one site. We were all told, once we got the political work done, to go and see the library. Beyond the books, there were rooms where there were textiles. People had sowing machines. People just book a slot, go in and they have a sewing machine there. There was a DJ booth, as well as sound recording studios and kitchens. It was for every type of expression you could possibly imagine. There were oil paintings and cardboard. I am not doing it justice. There were also 3D printers.

My earlier questions were about the people delivering the curriculum; I was one of them for years. We are generalising too much by not providing this. Our energies and expertise are probably mischannelled in different ways. The space we need for all for this is often surrendered. When a school needs a new special class, for example, the music room ends up repurposed. Everything gets squeezed out to make out room for something else. In the context of libraries and those kinds of more general spaces, do the witnesses from all the organisations, whether it is the National Gallery of Ireland and the huge collection it has, or youth arts, Music Generation and the library of instruments it has, think there are public spaces we could better develop to promote all of these art forms better?

Speaking from Music Generation's experience, one of the things that is working particularly well in local communities all around the country is after-school provision in school buildings. Rather than school buildings being closed after hours, they are open and available for children and young people to be able to access their lessons, tuition and rehearsals on evenings and weekends. We have some exemplars around the country of how music centres or creative centres have also been developed. Examples include Music Generation's creative centres in Laois and Limerick city, as well as The Core, Mayo. There are many examples of those spaces being available. It is about using the spaces that we have, particularly to support after-school access. That is important.

I 100% agree that, across Ireland, there is a network of museums and civic spaces, including arts centres, that could be further enabled. They could help schools encountering barriers or finding it challenging to fully develop their programmes. With that in mind, we must think about the actual result of that. It is well-documented that art in a civic space has many different benefits for people. There may be capacity challenges in some, but not all, schools. Some schools are open and accessible and they are easily able to facilitate arts education. There are other community organisations that could be part of the solution, such as the various organisations present. For example, the National Gallery of Ireland currently has the AIB Portrait Prize and Young Portrait Prize in the Regional Cultural Centre in Donegal. It will go to Waterford Gallery of Art. There are networks of organisations with which we actively work. We deliver our programmes on a national level. Children from those counties and surrounding counties can experience and engage with those organisations.

Very good. We are done with the formalities-----

Senator McCormack wishes to come in, if she can.

Yes, of course. Senator McCormack has three minutes.

I was attending a different committee but I heard there was a lovely girl here from Laois, so I came in to see her. I am from Laois as well. I studied music for my leaving certificate and it is still my saving soul. It is what I do to wind down. I sing with a gospel choir and I absolutely love it. I wanted to come in to say “Well done” to every single one of the witnesses. I will work with the members of this committee, who are doing great work, to help in any way I can for more funding. I am conscious that I am not a member of this committee and that I just jumped in for a moment. I know the great work that Music Generation is doing in Laois. My daughter takes part in it. I am raging that I missed Kiêu play the harp. I just wanted to come down to say, “Well done”.

The Senator is very welcome. We are nearly done. I meant to say at the beginning that I want to thank Music Generation. I have a younger sister with additional needs. She might not be great with expressive language but by God, she can play an accordion. A few years ago, she was asked whether she plays it by ear and she said, “No, I play it by hand”. She spent years self-teaching, but she also got lessons. As an adult, she has gone back to Music Generation and looks forward to every Wednesday evening when she leaves her sheltered accommodation and goes down with her accordion. The organisation is doing fabulous work, not just for young people but for people with additional needs. On behalf of my family, I acknowledge that. Music and all these art forms can sometimes express things that words cannot. She has found the way to express her words in a way the rest of us might not have. It is beautiful to be able to see those things expressed. We examine disability in the school classroom often at this committee. Disability held her back so much, but her abilities in music allowed her at 16 to win an all-Ireland against people who had full cognitive capacity.

I thank each of you for what you are doing in the arts. I agree that we have to allow a lot more space for this. We can have GAA, of course, and it is very important to all of us, but we can also have visual, performing and creative arts and music. They can all coexist and should have their own funding streams.

Before we conclude, we would love to have Kiêu play us out, as they say. We will give her a moment to set up.

Well done, Kiêu. A few have already said that we might see Cillian back here but you are all welcome back here as full-time participants. There will be elections here in a few years' time, or you can trigger it earlier. We might see some of you back here. We do a lot of talking in this place, as you can see on all the screens, but it is lovely to have the arts in here and to hear a performance. It just enriches our day. The rest of the day will not be as nice as this.

On behalf of the committee, I thank each and every one of you for coming in and for your insights and perspectives. The discussion has been very insightful. On behalf of the members, I commend the younger people who spoke and performed so eloquently and passionately about their arts and what they have done creatively in school and at home, enabled by all the organisations. I also acknowledge Kiêu's teacher, who is in the Gallery. It is a proud moment for her and for Kiêu's dad as well. Cillian's mom is here as well. Everyone in the Gallery can be hugely proud. We can see by their reactions and facial expressions that they are very invested in all of this as well, as parents, teachers and organisations. I thank you for all you are doing to give that creative space to young people. The spark has certainly been lit here, and long may it burn.