Apologies have been received from Deputy Catherine Callaghan. I remind members to turn off their mobile phones or switch them onto flight mode.

The purpose of today's meeting is to have an engagement with the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, on the report, "An Assessment of the Efficacy of Bail Laws in Ireland", drug-related intimidation and violence, the coercion of youth and children, and related matters. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister and his officials to the meeting.

On the format of today's meeting, I will invite the Minister to make his opening statement to the committee on the matters, and this will be followed by questions from the members in the order in which they indicate to me. In order to manage the committee's time effectively, I propose that each member commences with an initial five minutes to engage with the Minister. It is important to note that the five minutes is for questions and answers. It is, therefore, essential for members to put their questions succinctly and for the Minister to be succinct in his response.

When all members who have indicated have had their initial engagement and, time permitting, a second round will commence where each member will have up to three minutes for both questions and answers. Please note that the duration of this meeting is limited and, therefore, the times must be strictly adhered to. I ask everyone to be focused in their contributions today. I now call the Minister to deliver his opening statement.

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach and the committee for inviting me in today. As she said, I am here for three reasons really: to answer questions in respect of the report prepared by Mr. Lorcan Staines, senior counsel, on the efficacy of the bail laws in Ireland; to discuss drug-related intimidation and violence; and to discuss the coercion of youth and children; as well as related matters. I am joined by Ms Rachel Woods, assistant secretary in the Department.

The committee will be aware that back in May 2025, I apologised to the O'Farrell family for the failings in our criminal justice system which were exposed by the untimely death of their son Shane in August 2011. He was killed by a hit and run driver who was later identified as Zigimantas Gridziuska. The circumstances of his death raise persistent questions as to why persistent breaches of bail conditions by Mr. Zigimantas Gridziuska through the commission of further offences did not trigger a response under Ireland's criminal justice code, why consecutive sentences were not imposed in respect of the offences Mr. Gridziuska committed while on bail and why warrants that were issued were not executed. While bail laws in Ireland are comprehensive, I am committed to ensuring they are fit for purpose while ensuring fundamental rights principles are adhered to. This examination of our bail laws, and subsequent proposals, underlines the need for additional actions to be considered to ensure the criminal justice system effectively mitigates against risks that may be associated with individuals on bail.

It is totally unacceptable that offences are committed by people on bail. That is a direct breach of their promise made when bail is granted by the court . The report by Mr. Staines is a detailed analysis that will greatly assist in considering how our criminal justice system might better respond to recidivist offenders who persistently break summary laws. I thank him for the work he did and the speed with which he compiled his report and, more importantly, the recommendations. These include investment in improved information sharing systems for both An Garda Síochána and the Courts Service; the implementation of an adult bail supervision scheme to ensure the proper management of recidivist offenders; changes to bail legislation to significantly expand the conditions which may be attached to the granting of bail; and further legislative amendments to improve the legal framework surrounding bail.

It will be possible to address some recommendations immediately with amendments to existing bail legislation in the Criminal Law and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026, which was before the Dáil last week on Second Stage. These include the expansion of scheduled offences in the Bail Act 1997. The Bill provides for offences to be added to the Schedule of the Bail Act in sections 38 and 39 of the Domestic Violence Act 2018, which relate to forced marriage and coercive control.

Moving to the second issue the committee invited me in to discuss, drug-related violence and intimidation, I am fully committed to helping to significantly reduce the harms caused to families and communities by illicit drug use. The stark reality of drug use in Ireland today means this work is a high priority for me and for An Garda Síochána. In the Department, we have a particular focus on targeting the work of organised crime groups, which inflict intimidation and violence on families and communities, while grooming and coercing vulnerable young people into drug-related criminal activity. Drug-related intimidation and violence in the community is a sinister form of criminality requiring a multifaceted response, which both supports victims and ensures robust enforcement targeting the people carrying out these crimes.

The Garda continues to target those involved in street-level drug dealing across the country and large drug dealers. It also focuses on disrupting and dismantling the drug trafficking networks that impact our communities, and prosecutes those involved at every level, through Operation Tara. It is also welcome that Operation Fógra, launched by the Garda to specifically tackle drug-related intimidation, has been responsible for an increasing number of arrests, prosecutions and convictions for offences related to drug-related intimidation and violence.

Recognising the comprehensive response necessary to tackle this issue, I am also highly supportive of dedicated initiatives such as the cross-agency drug-related intimidation and violence engagement, DRIVE, project, led by the Department of Health, which seeks to reduce incidents of drug-related intimidation and to foster safer, healthier communities. In May last year, I launched that initiative alongside my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor. The DRIVE campaign’s primary objective is to establish effective systems and structures that ensure a unified, timely, and sensitive response to drug-related intimidation, with a strong focus on victim support and community safety.

The community safety fund, which allows the proceeds of crime and the good work of the CAB and An Garda Síochána to be directed back into communities, has supported a variety of responses to community safety issues identified at community level, including in the area of substance misuse and drug-related intimidation.

It is important to recognise that the actions under way in relation to this area must be viewed holistically. No one single policy solution, as the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach will be aware, can resolve all the harms caused to society by the use of illicit drugs, but a combination of policies that are aligned and coherent can make a real difference for all those affected by the curse of illicit drugs. Diverting people, in particular young people, away from involvement in crime is another significant area of focus in the work of my Department. That was the final issue the committee wanted to discuss.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss efforts to divert our young people from crime. At the core of our diversion efforts is the fact that all young people deserve the opportunity to live the best and most fulfilling life possible, away from a life of crime. We believe they deserve to have choices and be enabled to make better life decisions for themselves. Directly intervening to support our young people, especially those most at risk of engagement in criminal activity, is vital to build stronger and safer communities.

We all know there is no quick-fix solution to diverting young offenders away from a life of crime. However, youth diversion projects, which are now available nationally to every child who may need to avail of them, offer a responsive, empathetic road towards a better life for so many. I have seen the great work carried out by very many of those youth diversion projects around the country. We know that diversion, rather than detention, leads to greater positive societal outcomes generally and specifically for communities, families and young people. We have seen that despite year-on-year population growth of 26% growth between 2015 and 2025 in the 12– to 17-year-old group, the number of children coming to the attention of the diversion programme has generally decreased, and in recent years has remained steady at about 8,000 children each year.

This means that offending by children, when compared to population growth, is actually on the decline. In this way, diversion not only supports children, and the families of children, but also supports safety in our communities by reducing the likelihood of reoffending and victimisation. The introduction of the Criminal Justice (Engagement of Children in Criminal Activity) Act 2024 seeks to break the link between children who are engaged, or at risk of engaging, with a criminal gang. The Greentown programme also aims to investigate the involvement of children in criminality and to identify effective interventions to tackle this problem. I thank the committee for inviting me along and I will answer any questions that colleagues may have.

I thank the Minister. I will call members in the order they indicated, starting with Deputy Alan Kelly.

I welcome the Minister and Ms Woods. We only have five minutes. Slightly off topic, but I just have to put on the record that we need some sort of lookback after what happened in Limerick yesterday with the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Garda National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, GNBCI, and the Garda leadership. This case went on for seven years. There are other issues involved in this as well, but it must have cost the taxpayer €10 million.

As a TD for the mid-west, roads policing in the area collapsed. I am talking about the number of serious, good gardaí who have been taken out of the system. I have no idea why Limerick and that whole area was picked on but surely lessons have to be learned. Without pointing fingers directly at any individual, lessons have to be learned in the whole system because it is very worrying what happened here. I just put that on the record.

I am a huge supporter of the youth diversion programme. It is something we can enhance and use more. Does the Minister have any plans in relation to it? It has grown and grown. He is looking at expanding community service orders, which is a good idea as well. He brought it up last week.

I welcome some of the recommendations on bail, but we have got to get these recommendations right if they are to be implemented because there is quite an outcry at times in relation to some of the issues that become glaringly obvious with the way in which bail works, as the Minister knows only too well. In this regard, the changes relating to forced marriage and coercive control are also very welcome.

On drug-related intimidation and violence, we have discussed the issue of criminal sanction for possession. I have made my views very clear on it. Is the Minister going to make any changes in this regard?

Furthermore and finally, drug-related intimidation and violence is not just an urban issue. It happens in my county and in my parish. It happens in rural areas. There is a lack of policing. At the moment, there is discrimination between urban and rural areas in policing. I hope that will be addressed in the next week with the output from Templemore being more oriented towards rural areas. The most recent few have all been oriented towards urban areas and Dublin in particular. Dealing with intimidation and violence when An Garda Síochána does not have boots on the ground is a real problem. It is everywhere. I see it. I know of particular estates in my home area where the reverse happens and people literally drive in and sit there to intimidate the drug dealers because there are no gardaí. I have seen it myself. They are just trying to be good citizens and to raise some awareness.

I thank the Deputy very much. I will move through his questions quickly because I am conscious I have to keep within the five minutes. The Deputy spoke about a case in Limerick. I am obviously not going to say much about that but the administration of justice operates when people are acquitted as well as when people are convicted.

It went on for seven years.

The administration of justice operates when people are acquitted just as when they are convicted.

How much did it cost?

I am not going to talk about the case. People can be ,and are, acquitted of offences. That is the administration of justice. When people are acquitted, innocent people have been brought through the courts. We do not have a system where the State investigates the background to the prosecution.

I agree with the Deputy that youth diversion is enormously helpful. I have visited youth diversion projects throughout the country. The important point to emphasise is that every child in Ireland now has access to a youth diversion project. Community services orders will be of real benefit. District Court judges will now be able to consider community service for persons who otherwise would have been put in prison. On bail proposals, I am glad the Deputy welcomes the miscellaneous provisions Bill.

On DRIVE and criminal sanctions, it is enormously intimidating for families, young people and people who are not so young to be faced with this intimidation. There is a plan in place to respond to it. People should know that, if they are being subjected to intimidation, they should go to An Garda Síochána. There is a good project in place. The DRIVE project is available. People are not allowed to intimidate others and An Garda Síochána is there to defend them and to investigate such cases.

The gardaí are not there. They do not exist.

The five minutes have passed. Should I keep going or does the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach want me to be strict on it?

We will move on. The Minister can pick up on other points as we go, if that is okay. We want to get everyone in and we have limited time. I call on Senator McDowell.

I thank the Minister for coming today. My questions follow on from Deputy Kelly's, although they are very different. The Deputy mentioned that it took seven years to dispose of a case against members of An Garda Síochána. What I have to say is in no way meant as criticism of the Minister himself because this issue existed when I was Minister for justice too. It is all very well to look at the bail system. I am hugely impressed by what Lorcan Staines did in such a short period and the comprehensive nature of his report. It was exemplary. However, one of the fundamental points about the administration of justice in Ireland is the amount of delay. The Inspector of Prisons, Mark Kelly, was before the committee and spoke about the number of people who are on remand as a result of delays. This is causing a crisis for the prison system.

I have a second point. An Irish citizen - I will not personalise it any more than that - was arrested and accused of rape in Boston during the St. Patrick's Day festival period last year. He has already been tried twice under the American system. In England, a corrupt policeman murdered a woman and was put away in jail within nine months. Our bail system works two ways. It is liberal towards the innocent but it seems to have produced a very relaxed attitude to getting on with cases in the prosecution process. We are facing into the same crisis as the British. Jury trials become more and more difficult the longer they go on. Victims become more traumatised the longer cases take.

I ask the Minister to bear in mind that the bail system is not in a discrete silo by itself. This has been a problem for at least 20 years because we had the same problem when I was where the Minister is now. Everything took an age. If the Minister is going to do a review, I ask him to look not so much into the seven-year case Deputy Kelly referred to, but into why the Irish system is so appallingly slow. It is slow right across the board from the smallest case to the biggest. It is really poor. It may be that trials have become much more complicated. They have. When I was a young barrister, you could get a rape case over with in a day and half while they now seem to take a week and half. Some of that may be avoidable and some may not be but what are we going to do about delays in prosecution?

To go back to the time when Senator McDowell was Minister for justice, the significant difference between now and then is that, when he was Minister, there were two judges hearing cases in the Central Criminal Court. There are now at least ten. We now have Central Criminal Courts around the country. We have them in Cork and in other parts of the country. That is having a real impact in speeding up the criminal justice process for those very serious offences that come before those courts. I am not going to go into specific cases but I am aware of cases that have been disposed of within 13 or 14 months. The system can work very quickly to get on with a case. The Senator will know that the speed with which a case gets on will, to a large extent, depend on its complexity. If it is about a historic sexual abuse allegation, it will take An Garda Síochána a considerable time to investigate that. A file must then be sent to the DPP. As Minister, what I can do is to improve and increase resources. I have done that. We have added 20 extra judges across the jurisdictions and there are another 20 to be added. In fact, we have added 24 and will add another 20 at the end of this year. That will have a direct impact in speeding up the process.

When it comes to bail, the reason people are refused bail is that there is a fear that they will flee or commit further serious offences. Those are the only two grounds upon which bail can be refused. As the population increases, the number of cases will increase. That will happen with the increased number of gardaí. That is going to be a significant consequence.

Another point I was going to mention is that the review of the criminal justice we are doing is focused on speeding up the prosecution of indictable offences in the Circuit Court and in the District Court. I recently got a really interesting report from the Department in respect of criminal legal aid cases in the District Court. When you compare the speed of cases in the District Court where the defendant does not have criminal legal aid with cases where he or she does-----

Surprise, surprise.

-----you can see that those cases where legal aid is involved take considerably longer. The reason for that is the fee structure. I am going to bring forward proposals to change that.

In my constituency, scrambler bikes are being used for the transportation of drugs. I have no doubt this is happening the length and breadth of Dublin and in other parts of the country as well. They are also being used to intimidate the communities in which these drugs are being sold. The Road Traffic and Roads Act 2023 amended the Road Traffic Act 1961 to prohibit the use of scramblers in certain locations. This has never been placed on a statutory footing. Given that the Minister is asked some form of parliamentary question on scramblers every month, why has not been placed on a statutory footing up to now? The Taoiseach announced in the Chamber just a couple of minutes ago that he had called the Minister and the Minister for Transport to ask them both to get a move on.

I thank the Deputy very much for his question. I express my condolences to the family of Grace Lynch on her appalling and tragic death. The issue the Deputy has raised concerns section 35A of the Road Traffic Act, as amended in 2023.

Section 35A says that the Minister for Transport - the Minister of State, Deputy Canney - can decide to bring in regulations for the purpose of prohibiting or restricting specified vehicles in a public area. I cannot sign those regulations. They do not come within the Department of justice's-----

The Minister of State, Deputy Canney, was on the radio this morning and said that he is liaising with the Minister's office. He placed the blame squarely with the Minister's office.

I do not think he did but I am just telling the Deputy what the factual situation is. If you look at section 35A, it refers to the Minister, the Minister being the Minister for Transport. What does happen, however, is that when the Department of Transport is deciding to bring in regulations or to amend road traffic legislation, it will always engage with An Garda Síochána to see if the changes are enforceable. My understanding is that has been done and there is no reason as to why the legislation and regulations cannot be commenced and enacted.

The proposal - and I have listened to the Taoiseach and we discussed it - is that scrambler bikes would not be outlawed, but the use of scrambler bikes on public roads and in public parks would be outlawed. We still have the same issue in terms of enforceability when it comes to trying to stop and detect people. It is unacceptable behaviour. However, An Garda Síochána has improved in terms of the number of seizures of bikes and quad bikes this year. In 2024, An Garda Síochána seized 124 scramblers and 32 quad bikes; up to the end of October last year, 113 scramblers and 22 quad bikes were seized.

I speak to gardaí in my constituency and around the city. They will tell you that, such is the lucrative nature of the business in which they are trying to contest, when a scrambler is seized, another one will be bought within a couple of weeks, and its rider will be back out there. I will come back to that issue during the second round of questions.

In his opening statement, the Minister said:

It is also welcome that Operation Fógra, launched by the Garda to specifically tackle drug-related intimidation, has been responsible for an increasing number of arrests, prosecutions and convictions for offences related to drug-related intimidation and violence.

Does the Minister stand over that statement?

Yes, I do.

Since Operation Fógra was launched in 2021, there has been an increase of 37% in drug-related intimidation. There have been 2,500 incidents of drug-related intimidation since 2021 and there has been a prosecution rate of a mere 4%. A 4% prosecution rate out of 2,500 instances, and the Minister claims that is a successful campaign.

Yes, I do. I was there last May when we were in the Department of Health and we launched the drug related intimidation and violence engagement, DRIVE, campaign. I know from speaking to the Commissioner and senior gardaí that they take it extremely seriously and people have been prosecuted.

A 4% prosecution rate from 2,500 incidents since 2021 is not a success by any measure. In relation to the DRIVE programme that the Minister referred to, I am a big believer in the phrase, "Show me your budgets and I will show you your priorities". A total of €280,000 went into the DRIVE programme last year and in 2026. Does that seem like a priority to the Minister?

Yes, it does.

A total of €280,000.

The Deputy asked me a question. Am I allowed to answer it or does he want to answer the question he asked me?

Yes.

Do I think it is reasonable? Yes, I do. I think it is suitable in terms of it being a new project that is starting up. Two hundred and eight thousand euro is a good start to it. We will always want to make more money available for the purpose of these campaigns but the fact that the campaign was launched is positive. We need to publicise it more. That is a responsibility on me, but it is on all Deputies as well, to make families aware that there is this campaign and that the Garda is going to take attempts by people to intimidate families to get money because of drug debts very seriously.

If we publicise it more, will the prosecution rate go up from 4%?

The prosecutions are increasing.

So are the arson attacks. There were 13 in 2022 and there were 50 last year.

There needs to be more prosecutions-----

Will the Minister take his head out of the sand?

There needs to be more prosecutions, but they are increasing.

As are the arson attacks.

This is an issue I have brought up with the Minister a number of times. The living reality for people in some of the areas that I represent is that there are not enough gardaí to keep them safe. I agree that we need a holistic approach. We will not police ourselves out of some of the issues we have but the agencies that are out there are not funded enough as well. I know some of them fall outside the Minister's remit. I received an email yesterday from the local drug and alcohol task force about an issue that might have a big impact on our areas.

On open drug dealing and intimidation, Deputy Gannon mentioned arson attacks and I have brought up this issue loads of times. They are becoming the norm in my area. Local gardaí are doing their best but there simply are not enough of them. It is leading to a sense of lawlessness in our constituency.

Deputy Gannon brought up the dangerous use of scramblers. More often than not, these scramblers are being used for drugs trafficking or for intimidation in our community. The noise of a scrambler driving up and down the road leads to a sense of fear and a sense of lawlessness. The riders are often driving up and down on one wheel. They do not give two hoots about what they are doing because there do not seem to be any repercussions for them.

That fear became a reality over the past couple of days when a young girl, Grace Lynch, lost her life. I offer her family my full condolences for the loss of this life. I am aware that there is a criminal investigation so I will not ask any questions in relation to that, but in response to a question from my leader, Deputy McDonald, the Taoiseach said that the Minister has had some very recent engagement with the Garda Commissioner, Justin Kelly, on scrambler use. What is the nature of this engagement? When will we see real action on scrambler use?

I thank Deputy Ward. I want to see as many gardaí as possible in areas. The more gardaí we have in An Garda Síochána, the better it is for all of our communities. In order to do that, we have to get the numbers up. We are at around 14,400 gardaí at present. The numbers are heading in the right direction. I am hopeful that by the end of the year, we will be up to 15,000.

We also need to use Garda resources more efficiently and effectively. Everywhere I go, and the Commissioner gets this as well, people want to see more gardaí on the streets. Visible policing is the policy of the Government and it is the policy of the Commissioner. High-visibility policing has happened in the inner city and in Cork. I need to get it out to the suburbs. The Commissioner is committed to doing that as well. That is the strategy and it is the correct approach to it.

I hear what the Deputy says in terms of funding local drugs projects to ensure people can be protected. The community safety fund from my Department is available. I have spoken to the Deputy in respect of that.

I hear what he is saying about arson attacks. We cannot allow arson attacks to become the norm. We need to report them. We need to bring people to justice for such dangerous crimes. I also hear what the Deputy said about scramblers. I have spoken to the Commissioner about scramblers. I have spoken to him about them since the awful death of Grace Lynch. An Garda Síochána takes the issue extremely seriously. We are going to see an even more aggressive approach in respect of Garda involvement when it comes to scramblers. There are laws there. The Deputy is right; a lot of people are using scramblers for the purpose of drug dealing. It is masking other crimes as well but we need a much more aggressive and robust response. The Garda Commissioner is committed to doing that.

When it comes to a more robust response, I was thinking outside the box about having something in place that we are not using at the moment. It is my understanding that a specialist Garda unit was set up that has drone technology to track dangerous behaviour on scrambler bikes. Is this being used? If not, why not?

I spoke to the Commissioner about this as well. There is a code of conduct being prepared in respect of the use of drones. If I was in here and there was not a code of conduct, I could be criticised for it not being there. That will be done and I spoke to the Commissioner about it again today.

I know that Deputy Ward is not suggesting it but having drones to identify where these scramblers are going to will not be the solution to all of these issues. If the Minister for Transport signs regulations to restrict the use of scramblers on public roads and in public parks, it will make enforcement by gardaí easier. They will know that if they see any person on a scrambler in a public place, they are committing a criminal offence.

I welcome what the Minister said in relation to the increase in the number of scramblers that have been seized over the past number of years, and it has been acknowledged, but my understanding is that most of these scramblers that have been seized were static. They were not moving. They have been seized as parts of drugs raids and raids for other issues. The scramblers just happened to be there. It was not the scramblers that they were going after. Is there anything that can be done about the non-static scramblers out there that are causing mayhem in our communities?

I do not have statistics about how many of the scramblers seized were, as the Deputy said, static or non-static and there was a good number seized in 2024 and 2025. However, in terms of our ability and legislative power that is there, An Garda Síochána has been given the legislative power to seize scramblers which, to use the Deputy's term, are non-static.

I thank Senator Ruane for chairing the meeting as I was in the Chamber. The Minister will be disappointed to learn that my voice is not great today-----

I am sorry to hear that.

-----but we will try and carry on regardless.

I thank the Minister for his presentation. In relation to Mr. Staines's work on our bail laws, he is less than glowing about the current system.

However, I acknowledge what the Minister has said about additional judges being appointed by the end of this year. That should make a huge difference and will hopefully be positive in reducing the delay mentioned by Senator McDowell.

In his opening statement the Minister also mentioned that we have seen, despite the earlier population growth that the number of children coming through detention or diversion programmes has generally decreased. That is very welcome and a good news story. In my experience, probably like that of Deputy Ward, there are concentrated pockets of the reverse happening on the ground. There is a huge amount of what I will not call antisocial behaviour because, to be frank, I hate the phrase. What is happening on the ground is blatant criminality as we have seen in Finglas. Like others I offer my condolences to the Lynch family and that community, and I will not say much more about it. That activity is part of a wider milieu of criminality that needs to be tackled head on. The modes of transport they are using are scramblers, e-bikes, scooters and so on. It is causing mayhem for local communities. One thing I would love to see is if the Minister and his colleague, the Minister, Deputy Browne, could discuss ways to beef up the antisocial behaviour housing policy the local authorities have and that the approved housing bodies implement, or do not implement as the case may be. We have lots of people in our social housing units involved in this criminality, and before anybody accuses me, I am not saying it is exclusive to them. It is not all of them, it is a minority. Let us be clear about it. Effectively, because we are giving them a differential rent, we are state sponsoring some of this activity in my opinion. I would love to see a scenario where we created a robust interdepartmental group that would deal with this kind of antisocial criminality and essentially, where appropriate, remove tenancies from people. There are thousands of people legitimately waiting and who want to make contributions to our society and communities in a positive way that should be prioritised over these people.

I note what the Deputy states about Lorcan Staines's report. One thing I need to focus on while considering strengthening the bail laws is that the prison population is significantly impacted by people who are remanded in custody as opposed to being granted bail. The fewer people who get bail, the more people are going to be on remand and there is an issue with the number of remand prisoners in Cloverhill at present. When I gave the statistics about the drop in total criminal incidents involving children of 35% between 2012 and 2022, I was not ignoring that a small number of youths, if I can use that term, can create havoc and completely destroy a local estate or community. I am conscious, notwithstanding that there is a general reduction in the amount of criminal activity by children, that it is still a huge source of problems. We obviously need a strategy to deal with it. The Oireachtas has decided, as a policy, that incarceration of children is a last resort. That is set out in the Children Act. We need to think of other methods to try to stop their criminal activity. Regrettably, serious criminals know that people under 18 years of age are more difficult for the Garda to investigate or the State to prosecute.

The Deputy also mentioned the issue of beefing up housing policy. Many people can have their lives destroyed by the fact that you have one or two individuals living in an estate who are involved in criminal activity, whether it is drug dealing or not. It is difficult for local authorities to terminate those tenancies. Cases have gone to the superior courts where the child of a tenant has been dealing drugs from a local authority property. The council has terminated the tenancy but the courts have overturned that because the dealer is not the tenant, so it is complicated. It is preferable that the local authorities, which are the owners of the property and are leasing it out, adopt a stricter approach in terms of the conditions they require to be complied with by tenants.

I thank the Minister for being here. I do not know if I have questions so much as to set a contrast to the general conversation. We are discussing coercing children and housing and making people homeless as a response to antisocial behaviour, which is so far from addressing any core drivers of why antisocial behaviour exists. Removing people's tenancies definitely does not in any way address the reasons people may be engaging in particular behaviours. We are having lots of conversations here and poverty has not been mentioned once. Yet, we are talking about many communities in which these conversations are happening the context of very difficult circumstances with families struggling to keep their children in education, struggling with the cost of living and with just being able to live a life where they do not feel they are in constant hypervigilance. We need to be able to have those discussions instead of always looking at the punishment end of things, at the response and at what we can take away from these people as if that is going to be an answer. We need to look more at interrupting violence and intimidation. Even the DRIVE programme is a response to something already happening. That is not a plan and a strategy about how we address the reasons these things happen in the first place.

I am sometimes surprised I have reached an age where I can quote work I did in 2010, but in 2010 Dr. Fiona O'Reilly and I carried out the first and only piece of research in Ireland with middle-ranking drug dealers on the reasons they engaged in drug dealing in the first place. Over the course of that year’s research, what became clear is that poverty drove their initial engagement in drug dealing from a very young age. Now, some of them are grown men and we may see them and ask if they are the ones coercing the young people we are talking about. Actually, the context of social class and poverty is the real groomer here. It is people not having a purpose in life in a capitalistic and patriarchal society where drug dealing allows people to have what everybody else has. They are able to say they want to own that car, to have those nicer windows, to have that porch, but they are from a community where nobody in their household went to education or ended up in a particular profession. If we are really honest about how we create safer societies it is by addressing the core drivers, which at their core are poverty, inequality across generations, lack of safe housing and communities and by bolstering the communities to respond to their own issues. People will say to get gardaí on the street. That is an easy perception of safety. You create a perception of safety and usually the people who feel safe when gardaí are on the street are probably least likely to be the ones in harm's way, but they feel in harm's way because stuff is happening around them, in the alleyway or in their flat complex, so they feel unsafe. Constantly only asking for gardaí is about the perception of safety. It is not about real, tangible and actual safety. The percentage of people in a community who are causing the most harm is a very small number, and everyone is working around them. Nobody is working with them. No-one is engaging in interventions with that small number of people. In most instances, those most likely to die by violence and intimidation are that small percentage. All of us are looking to work around them and tinker round the edges.

I thank the Minister's Department for the funding that went to the canal communities, which looks at exactly this and which is about violence interruption - interruption in the intimidation. It is about harnessing the skills that already exist within the communities so we can negotiate before the Garda has to come in and before that breakdown between the Garda and the justice systems and young men even happens. When I was listening today we were talking about communities, but not talking about the constant material reality of people's lives in communities. If we want to address drug dealing and intimidation we have to get serious about addressing the core issues because we will not police our way out of poverty. As I said to the Minister, there is not a question in there, I just need to set a bit of contrast to the conversation.

I suggest that the Minister might reflect on that and address it in closing remarks later, just for efficiency of time.

Okay.

The Minister is welcome and I thank him for his ongoing hard work in the portfolio he holds and I wish him continued success with it.

On the drug situation, unfortunately, there is not a village or town that is not familiar with this problem. I want to speak about the parents of children who find themselves in difficulty with gangs and children taking drugs, the crying shame it is and the torture and mental turmoil those families go through when these gangs knock on the door looking for money. I am aware of a number of families in County Monaghan who have unfortunately travelled that road. It is a very lonely and scary road because people are more often than not afraid to speak out about it because of the shame of their children having been involved in drugs. The DRIVE project by the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, is a very useful step in that regard. Should we do more to make people aware of it? What more can we do to get the message out that help is available? There is an onus on us all to spread the message.

Notwithstanding Senator Ruane's comments, on families involved in drugs in housing estates, I am aware, as the Chair would be, of a number of families in Monaghan living in the locality of those dealing drugs. It is a very tough place for them to be. They are frustrated and crying out because, even though the leaseholder may be involved in drugs, it is an onerous and long journey to get to the point where that individual is evicted from their property over that activity. It can drag on for years. Often, there has to be a pathway or trail from persons in the locality reporting the drug activity going on in house number whatever to the Garda. There is a fear in coming forward. Even when they do, it takes a long time before a judge will decide somebody should be convicted. I have personal experience of that. It can go on for years. At the end of the day, it is down to the whim of a judge. Meanwhile, while all this goes on, the locality is living with the problem.

I know there is no silver bullet but I am a firm believer that the presence of gardaí in our localities is reassuring to the general public and it puts those who may stray towards criminal activity under a wee bit of pressure. I note that progress has been made in large cities. We can clearly see in this city more gardaí on the street than there were heretofore. I welcome that. The same can be said of Cork. However, more is to be done in counties like Monaghan and Cavan, where the Cathaoirleach and I come from. When are we likely to see an increased number of gardaí on our streets? That is the cry from most people.

While I am talking about gardaí in Monaghan and Cavan, it would be remiss of me not to mention, as I have mentioned to the Minister on a number of occasions, the current three-county model.

I agree they are very important questions so I will allow the Minister to respond.

I thank my Monaghan colleagues for their questions. Most criminal activity is driven by drugs. Drugs activity is driven by the desire to make money. I note Senator Ruane's comment about many people coming from poverty as a motivator but it is not just that. There are people who are not from poverty who want to get more money for themselves. They are greedy and are prepared to break the law.

Senator Gallagher spoke about parents being intimidated. We should do more to make people aware that they are not on their own and that intimidation is unacceptable behaviour that the Garda takes extremely seriously. If somebody calls to their door looking for money as a result of intimidation, they should report it. Supports are available.

Every TD and Senator wants more gardaí in their area. We are getting the numbers up. The Commissioner is committed to the Government's high-visibility policing. We have seen it rolled out in Dublin and Cork. I want to see it rolled out throughout the country. I will not give a date and I am not going to say to the Commissioner that Matt Carthy and Robbie Gallagher want him to put the next bunch into Monaghan. I know they would like me to say that. It will come, however. We will see higher visibility policing. It is important that we also use more efficiencies and get more gardaí out on the street so that civilians are doing their jobs.

Before the Minister heads to Monaghan, he can come to Louth. It is closer. I will make a plug for all services to come to County Louth first.

There are two issues I would like to discuss with the Minister. The first is an apparent gap. There is a blind spot in the PULSE system in regard to notifications. Apologies, as I arrived late and this may have been addressed. Is there a plan or resources available so that information regarding whether a person is on bail can be shared and uploaded to the PULSE system? I believe it was mentioned in a submission by the courts that we were in a position where it was up to gardaí directly communicating with one another rather than relying on an IT service, which is not infallible in itself. Addressing this would help to avoid situations in which a court is not aware that somebody who is reoffending is on bail.

The second issue follows on a little bit from Senator Ruane's discussion. I have raised concerns about certain communities and areas in Drogheda with the Minister on a number of occasions. Before Christmas, I visited a couple of schools in Drogheda that were struggling with their students. They are primary schools. Very young children are being groomed and used as drug mules. There are incidences of children as young as seven coming into school high. The teachers are pulling their hair out because they do not know how to deal appropriately with these children because of their home situation of addiction or poverty, which is why I link it to poverty. They feel hopeless because the supports are not available. There is that sense Drogheda people had a number of years ago in relation to gangs. That situation was effectively dealt with to a certain point and we all genuinely thought that the head of the snake had been lobbed off, but when you cut off the snake's head, another one grows. We do not have the Drogheda implementation board any more. Situations are arising in certain areas in Drogheda and stretching out around the county where children are being used as drug mules, there is intergenerational poverty and addiction, and services are stretched to the max. The Red Door provides wonderful services but is not in a position to do much more than what it is doing at the moment. The courts are stretched as well, although I acknowledge and welcome the additional judges. While I believe there always has to be a punitive element, I would much prefer to see resources going into services that would stop children offending in the first place. Education is an important pathway but if teachers are lost and have not got supports, they cannot help the children. These children, therefore, are not getting help. It is a situation that goes way beyond justice. The Department of the Taoiseach was going to tackle child poverty. It merits a cross-departmental approach between health, education, the Taoiseach's office and the Department of justice to effectively tackle this situation.

Prevention is always better than cure.

The first issue the Deputy raised had to do with information systems. We need to have sharing of information systems between An Garda Síochána and the Courts Service and a number of projects are ongoing at present that are dealing with that. There is a major initiative to implement a unified case management system for criminal matters. That is part of the ten-year modernisation programme of the Courts Service. Under that, the unified case management system is to replace all civil and criminal case systems in the Courts Service with one modern case management system that will enable end-to-end digital journeys and streamline processes, and all the data should be available.

I was looking at page 44 of Mr. Staines's report where he deals specifically with PULSE. The Law Society said that it appeared that PULSE did not create a notification when an individual who was currently on bail breached bail conditions by committing offences while on bail. We need to improve information systems to ensure An Garda Síochána is fully aware. On most occasions, An Garda Síochána is aware if someone is on bail, but there is certainly an issue, which Deputy Butterly and Mr. Staines highlighted.

I do not want to interrupt the Minister, but I will. Do we know when we can expect this unified end-to-end case system to be up and running, at least initially?

Ms Woods tells me the criminal side of it will start to roll out later this year. It has been raised by me in the Department quite frequently. A commencement date is in sight.

Deputy Butterly also raised the issue of children. Legislation is in place that criminalises adults who are ruining young people's lives by forcing them into criminal lifestyles. If children are being forced into criminal activity by adults, it is child abuse. We should call it child abuse. The legislation on it is in place, but perhaps if society can categorise it as the child abuse it is, that may have some impact on the people who engage in this form of criminal behaviour.

Often in this respect, it is children criminalising children. For the funeral of one person, the children literally ran out of the classroom because this person was being buried and they thought he was their friend. He was a teenager. In these cases, they look at these people as heroes. They emulate them because they want the jacket, or as Senator Ruane said, they want to own the car. They see a way out for themselves and get sucked in.

I will bring the Deputy in for a second round.

I thank the Minister for being here this afternoon. During the summer, he visited Ballinasloe and we were delighted to see him there at the youth diversion project. One of the things that struck me on the day, from talking to the youth workers who were involved, was the age at which a child could participate in a youth diversion programme. It is 13 years of age, whereas they need support younger than that. That was the message I picked up on the day. The intervention is needed at eight years of age because of the way society has, unfortunately, broken down. In his statement, the Minister said: "Diverting people, in particular young people, away from involvement in crime is another significant area of focus in the work of my Department." If he could look at that age, it would be appreciated.

I can give an answer on that.

Please do.

The Youth Justice Strategy 2021-2027 commits to extending the remit of the youth diversion programme to provide dedicated family support, early intervention and harder to reach programmes. The latter are for people who are harder to reach and specifically target immediate family members of participants, but also children aged between eight and 11 years of age who are at risk of coming to the attention of law enforcement. There is awareness in the Youth Justice Strategy 2021-2027 that we need to start to do work before people reach 13.

I thank the Minister. It is great that it is there. It is just about getting it implemented.

I will go back to Senator Ruane's experience, when she spoke about the work she had done in the past. Just before Christmas, we visited Limerick Prison, where we got to the see the male and female prisons. I met one of the wardens and while we were walking around - we did not meet prisoners; we were just in a room - she said to me that the story there was a sad one. I asked her to tell me. The story was about a lady who was separated and had three children and had found herself in jail. While she was there, her mother passed away. Her three children were then taken into care. While she was still in prison, she lost her family home, which was a social house. The fabric there has completely broken down. When that woman comes out to be rehabilitated back into the community, she will not have a home to go to. Her children are in care and the structure is gone. Is there any relationship building with that local authority to prevent a repeat of that, so where people find themselves in jail, they have a home to come out to?

The Senator raised two issues. The first was Limerick Prison. I have been there as well and visited the men's and women's prisons. I was impressed with both of them. I know the pressures prisons are under, but the women's prison is one of the best developments the State has undertaken in recent years. I always insist on meeting prisoners when I go to prisons. The committee should do so as well. I spoke to the women and men in Limerick Prison.

For people who end up in jail, in many instances, the important structures in their lives have broken down and it is difficult when they come back out. The Probation Service does a huge amount of work to prepare people to come back out into the community. That can be difficult for people who are convicted of minor offences or who are in prisons for a short period, but it does a lot of work when people are released. Whether they are on a suspended sentence or released into the community, it does an excellent amount of work.

In the short time I have left, the Minister spoke about joint protocols between An Garda Síochána, the Courts Service and Tusla. How is that operating?

Since the Criminal Justice (Engagement of Children in Criminal Activity) Act 2024 was enacted, how many adults have been charged to date for exploiting children to transport drugs?

I do not have the detail to answer the last question, but I will come back to the Senator with it.

When children are before the children's court, it is a difficult and complex issue. As I said earlier, only as a last resort should children be incarcerated. Then there is the issue of Oberstown Children Detention Campus where there is limited space. Our responsibility is to try to divert children from a pathway of criminality. We have had success through the work of the Probation Service and the youth diversion programmes. They will never be 100% successful, but we need to keep working on it because they are producing good results.

Before I open the second round, I have a few short questions.

Many of the issues dealt with rely on increasing the number of gardaí. I think it is accepted that is required. I understand a graduation will take place next week.

Yes, on Friday week.

How many gardaí will be involved in that?

Approximately 170 will pass out and I think the number going in - there is always a number of recruits going in - is 180, but it could be higher. That is my recollection of what I was told a week ago.

Is the Minister aware that some of the gardaí, or recruits as they are now, who will pass out on Friday week still have not received their Garda vetting and therefore will not be able to enter the field? How many are we talking about?

I cannot give the number, but we have changed the Garda vetting process. Ultimately, however, no gardaí will attest and be a fully probationed garda until they have fully gone through the vetting process. Previously, we had to wait for the full vetting of people before they started the course in Templemore. We are now vetting them in phase one. Then they start the course and the vetting in the other phases goes on. Sometimes, there are issues with vetting if people have come from another country. That can create difficulty with information being provided, but the changes that have been introduced have sped up the process of vetting. Like the Deputy, I want to ensure that we get as many gardaí through the system as quickly as possible. It is imperative that they all be vetted. They will all have been vetted when they are out there.

I have been told the number could be as high as 20. Is that possible?

I do not have the figure.

I know, at least in the case that has been referred to, this is not somebody who had been abroad and there is no understandable or identifiable reason as to why there would be a particular delay with it.

I am surprised at that because obviously it is the desire of the Garda to ensure we get as many people attested as quickly as possible. If the only thing outstanding is vetting for someone who was in Ireland all their life I would be surprised at that. It is having a positive impact. We are getting gardaí into the system and out of the system faster by doing the vetting this way.

I want to talk about the bail review. I think all Members of the House have welcomed the review by Lorcan Staines SC. There are a number of aspects of it that will require considered deliberation but there are a couple of points that would have broad support and I wonder if you will indicate how speedily you intend to implement them. One relates to the provision that the Bail Act be amended to allow a member of the Garda who reasonably suspects a person has breached a condition of their bail to arrest them without warrant. The second recommendation was also recommended by the Commission on the Future of Policing in 2018, and it is that the responsibility for prosecution of offences be removed from the Garda in future court proceedings. That would have the dual benefit of ensuring cases are prosecuted by qualified law practitioners while also ensuring gardaí are not spending a significant time in court settings beyond what is absolutely required. Is it your intention to proceed with both of those proposals?

Mr. Staines produced about 15 recommendations, which I am not going to go through now. You have mentioned two of them, Chairman, but I am already progressing very many of them through the miscellaneous provisions Bill, as you are aware. Others I will progress and some I will have to give consideration to.

On allowing a member of An Garda Síochána who suspects a person has breached a condition of their bail to arrest them without warrant, that was considered back in 2015. A decision was made not to pursue this legislative change as it was considered that a general power of arrest without warrant for conduct that is not ordinarily criminal would amount to a disproportionate interference with constitutional rights. That was the advice given. However, consideration could be given to whether there is scope to expand the power of arrest for serious breaches of bail conditions, for example, to prevent an individual absconding from the jurisdiction.

The prosecution of offences in the District Court being undertaken by lawyers as opposed to gardaí was recommended by the Commission on the Future of Policing. Then another high-level group said that was not a good idea. I will give consideration to it but I want to do what is going to be most efficient. Gardaí are only prosecuting in the District Court. It is important they liaise with the Director of Public Prosecutions in respect of it but if I am going to transfer the function of prosecuting every case in the District Court that is being prosecuted by gardaí at present I am going to have to get a huge amount of resources. There are consequences to that recommendation. I will give it consideration.

You mentioned 15 recommendations. I just cited two and you have indicated, essentially, the reasons not to implement them. We have had a lot of reviews over a significant period that essentially are not acted upon, and therein lies part of the problem. One of the areas where there is unanimity, certainly on this committee, is that the bail supervision scheme should be much more broadly expanded.

I agree with that.

Is that something you plan to proceed with?

Yes, that is something I am considering. We are going to try to extend it. We are starting by specifically designing it for women. I am sorry to be sexist about it but there is an opportunity to do it in respect of women in the first instance and then extending the bail supervision scheme. As you will know, Chairman, we have to strike a balance. I am conscious you are aware of this as well. Sometimes it can be presented that nobody should be granted bail. I am not saying anybody here suggested that, but we need to be sure as there are constitutional rights at stake. Also, as I said earlier, there is a balancing act. If we start refusing bail to everyone we will not have enough space in the prisons, so it is a balance.

The bail supervision scheme is a way of ensuring we do not have huge numbers in our prisons who have not been convicted.

Yes. A benefit of Mr. Staines' recommendations is very many of them will have the effect of permitting bail to operate more efficiently and effectively. I was glad to see the recommendations in respect of electronic tagging. As you know, I have put that out for tender. The purpose of that is not to tag people who would not be in prison but to be an alternative to remanding people in custody. It is a reasonable option somebody would go for.

I am going to go for a second round. With the numbers here we can allow five minutes per member, starting with Senator Ruane.

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. To further clarify some points I made, with the research we did in 2010, even though I pointed to somebody wanting particular clothes or to improve their clothes, it was actually even more basic than that. From memory, one young man said he came from a family of ten in which he was the fifth brother and the hand-me-down uniform over the course of six to ten years was one of the main reasons he began to sell drugs at a young age. Another man spoke about wanting to get a disability ramp for his mother, who had a stroke, built onto the house. In many cases we point to the luxuries but for many people in the last few decades it has been basic needs that have pushed people. I agree there are people who do not have those experiences who have got involved, as the Minister mentioned, for reasons of greed or whatever it may be. Unfortunately, even though they exist, this disproportionately impacts communities I speak about in terms of how many people we bury in any given year either as end-users of drugs or because we end up killing each other. I acknowledge there are people not in that space who are involved but it does not impact them in the same way, in that it accumulates in a bigger way for communities like ours. We are not mutually exclusive groups. We all live together and we are all hurting each other, in many ways.

Has the Minister ever heard of focused deterrence? I am always looking at the prevention piece but it includes a justice framing or a change in narrative for the police as well. It was developed by David Kennedy and others in the United States in response to youth homicides in Boston three decades ago. It has gone on to develop into many iterations since then. It is a model that is used right across the US to reduce youth homicide and the research has proven time and time again that it has especially reduced male-on-male violence in particular communities. To give a simple example of what that is, you would have the Garda's involvement in this, you would have the violence intervention workers, the violence interrupters and a whole suite of people who work together. However, if a particular thing has happened in the community the gardaí can have a call-in, basically, where they include the people who were involved in the violence but there is an agreement set that the gardaí will not get involved until a particular point in time. If the violence intervention workers can reduce the instances of violence through their already trusted, credible relationships with people then the gardaí will say they will get involved if set things do not happen. It is very hard to understand it in the terms I am giving but in all the research I have seen it is effective. The Scottish violence reduction unit also uses this model. It was trained by those in the US. Denmark uses it as well. It would be very worthwhile for us see how it could work to reduce violence in all its forms for real and for good.

I thank the Senator. I am sure she will agree with me that the causes of criminal activity are complex and varied and depend on the activity. We have now a whole broad category of criminal activity and the reasons people get involved in it are varied. I fully accept that in terms of issues to do with drugs, historically these disproportionately affected working-class areas but that is changing. I can tell the Senator drug-related intimidation and violence is happening throughout all areas in our country. It is really important people are aware of that and that it is not limited to small groups of people. As for what the Senator said about that model, I acknowledge and appreciate her efforts to try to look at the causes of crime and to deal with it without going down the orthodox criminal justice incarceration route.

I have to look at it from the point of view of victims as well. Victims find themselves subjected to serious acts of violence or murder, or their houses are being attacked with arson. With a lot of those projects the Senator talks about, commendable though they are, the victim will not believe in many instances that they are getting justice out of it in terms of focused deterrent. That is not to say we should not seek to pursue them. One of the things that jumps out at somebody like Senator Ruane, who is so well aware of criminality, is that, generally, once men get to the age of 30 or 32, they stop committing offences.

They age out.

They age out of criminal activity. We can see where the problem and the issue is. I have met prisoners in Mountjoy Prison with Senator Ruane. By the time they are there for a number of years they realise they want to get their life back on an ordinary path and have an ordinary life. There is a benefit in the work that is being done but it is hard when one is trying to balance the rights of victims as well.

I am not saying the Minister should replace accountability and the justice system. It is more about the wider point.

I know the Senator is not. It is just there are other focused deterrents that should or could be looked at.

I have raised with the Minister numerous times in this committee, and will continue to do so, that our prison system is absolutely horrific. The conditions that exist there are tantamount to torture in some instances. That belief was also presented by the Chief Inspector of Prisons in this very committee room a couple of weeks ago. He gave jaw-dropping testimony in relation to the conditions that exist in our prison system, saying it was worse than he had seen at any point, anywhere, throughout his whole time in the work that he does.

I hope it does not present as a contradiction when I highlight the fact that out of 2,500 instances of drug-related intimidation there was a 4% prosecution rate. I and most people have to weigh those two beliefs together. I believe fundamentally in restorative justice and alternative sanctions. I believe prisons have a multitude of people in there who should never be anywhere near a prison cell. However, there is also the case that I have to represent a constituency and community which is blighted by violence and crime. When I hear stories of arson attacks, I also have to see a place for loss of liberty within the system. It is what happens when a person loses their liberty where I believe the State is missing a point of intervention in our prison system as it currently stands. Did the Minister hear the testimony of the Chief Inspector of Prisons at this committee a couple of weeks ago? Does he have a response to it? I want to come back to the funding for the DRIVE project afterwards, if the Minister could leave me some time for that.

I thank the Deputy. By the way, when Deputy Gannon advocates and criticises me for overcrowding in prisons I do not interpret that as him saying prisons are not an appropriate place. I am conscious that there is a complexity to this. There is nobody who sees the solution as being just one issue or not. Deputy Gannon is fully entitled to raise it with me. I am concerned about the overcrowding in prisons. I spoke to the Chief Inspector of Prisons. I met him at an event last week and will be meeting him again either this week or next week. In terms of what he said, in fairness I think his reference was limited to Europe. I do not think he was suggesting Irish prisons were the worst he has encountered in the world.

Fair enough, the worst in Europe.

The Lithuanian minister for prisons came over to Ireland because he wanted to speak to me about how well we do prisons. I was straight with him and said that we have an overcrowding issue there. The policy proposal put forward by the inspector of prisons is that I should operate the prisons the same way as Oberstown is operated, which is that if there is no space available, people do not go in. That is a coherent suggestion he has put forward. I do not agree with that and I have told him that, because we would have situations then that serious criminal events or trials take place, people are convicted and then the judge has to say to the victims who have gone through it, the prosecutors and the gardaí that sorry, but unfortunately there is no space available in our prison system so we cannot commence the custodial sentence yet, but we will do it. That is not a policy I am prepared to contemplate.

That is okay. I am sorry but I only have one minute and 40 seconds. He also said we will not be able to build our way out of it.

I agree with that.

That is absolutely fine. Within that, I have real concerns about the idea of just building another super-prison. If we build a super-prison we are going to fill it. We are going to maximise it. There are going to be people who do not get access to treatment, which is very scant at the moment. People do not get access to any sort of training for what they will do when they get out. Our recidivism rate will remain one of the highest in Europe. Why do we not reimagine what a place of detention can look like, in terms of smaller detention facilities, access to treatment and front-door accommodation? Looking at best practice like what they do in Norway, for example, why is that not a model we can look for?

I do not know if the Deputy was down in Limerick women's prison.

I was.

A lot of the things the Deputy is proposing are available in Limerick women's prison.

I think most of the women I met there should not be in prison.

That is a separate point. In terms of the quality of the places where the women stay, I think the Deputy would agree with me it is of high quality.

We were also in the men's prison, which was absolutely freezing. It is borderline Dickensian.

Does that not show that we need to improve the quality of our prisons? That is not going to happen unless we-----

We should reimagine what our prisons and the places we hold people should be. If we put people into a big detention centre with big bricks and an inability to access treatment, they are going to come out worse than they went in.

The Deputy's criticism or question is that we cannot build our way out of the prison issue. I agree with that. We are not just going to keep growing incarceration rates. However, if the Deputy looks at the population of the country, in the past ten years it has increased very significantly and the population capacity in our prisons has not correspondingly increased. The capacity ten years ago was 4,000. It is now 4,600. It has only increased by 600.

I am talking about outcomes.

There is nothing incompatible with me bringing forward the proposal to increase prison capacity by 1,500 spaces and recognising that I cannot build our way out of the problem. We need more spaces.

That will still leave us with an overcrowding rate of over 100%, but I am looking at outcomes. The Minister talks about overcrowding, but I am talking about our recidivism rate, which is nearly seven out of ten. It is one of the highest in Europe. What is the Minister going to do to bring that down?

I will let the Minister answer that briefly before I move on.

Recidivism rates for serious offences are very low. Recidivism events for the serious offences for which people are committed to long-term incarceration are very low.

People age out and time out.

Where we see recidivism rates being high is among people who get short-term sentences. We need to ensure that we can provide services for them in prison. Part of the reason people with chaotic lives are given prison sentences by district judges is because the judges believe the only place those people are going to get any form of treatment and the only place in which they will agree to any form of treatment, because it will be forced upon them, is if they go to prison for a short period.

They need to stop that.

Going back to the Minister's opening statement in relation to the DRIVE project, the Minister said it is led by the Department of Health and seeks to reduce instances of drug-related intimidation and to foster safer, healthier communities. What sort of budget is provided for the whole DRIVE campaign? How much is the Department of Health putting into it? How much is the Department of justice putting into it? What is the whole focus of the project? Are we doing it in a regional way, like through the six regional health areas, or what is the targeted approach?

I just want to answer a question Deputy Gannon asked earlier in respect of DRIVE. He asked how many summons have been initiated in the context of DRIVE in recent years. In 2025, there were 363 charges summons initiated. In 2024, it was 307 and in 2023, it was 323. In terms of the money available, at present it is a budget of €280,000 in 2025, with additional funding of €200,000 received to assist the roll-out of the awareness campaign that was launched in May last year. For 2026, the DRIVE project was seeking an additional €793,000 in funding, largely to cover the implementation of the DRIVE framework and the appointment of paid DRIVE leads who act as focal points for communication.

That focal point around communication is an interesting aspect. We talked earlier on about reducing the age from 13 years old to eight years old. Communication is where it is needed at this moment. Early intervention, prevention and awareness are hugely lacking at the moment. I am not saying that is lacking from the Minister's Department, but certainly if we are looking at this under a health strategy, every group and organisation coming through are asking how they can get a guest speaker in and who they can bring in. To be fair to An Garda Síochána, its representatives were very helpful in my area and willing to partake in it. It is not their sole responsibility, however. It is a wider societal responsibility. Getting in a guest speaker is quite expensive. I would love to see, from a communications point of view, that there would be targeted workshops within either schools or clubs where, for parents whose children are too young yet to be involved, there is the awareness of how we can do prevention. Children are getting involved far too young.

It is about once it goes into the clubs and seeps into that level because there is not a crossroads now in rural Ireland that a person cannot access drugs. There are no families whom we do not know about at this stage who have not got debts built up. There is the fear that what we saw happen in Edenderry happening in every community. There is a whole communication piece there. It is not the Minister's sole Department. It is for the Department with the responsibility of DRIVE. When I hear the figure of €793,000 and I cannot tell the Minister one place in Galway that I can point to that is going to be delivered in, we have to have a look at it.

I agree with Senator. Communication is important. If you go into the public office of any Garda station, you will see posters about DRIVE. I presume there are online communications in respect of it. I was at the campaign launch in May with the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O'Connor. The Department of Health plays a big part in it. It is the job of us, me primarily as the Minister, other Ministers and representatives here to make the public aware that they are not on their own if they are being subjected to drug-related intimidation or violence. There is a method of trying to get support and response from-----

It is important to say that I welcome the initiative. It is absolutely brilliant, but we need more on the front line.

There are no other members indicating that they wish to comment. I have some closing points. I thank the Minister for attending and having a robust engagement as always. He will have got a sense from the committee that there is an understanding of the complexity of these issues.

I have.

Senator Ruane set out very clearly that if we are serious about tackling crime and criminal activity, particularly the abuse and misuse of drugs within our society, then we need to deal with the sources. The sources are poverty, inequality and the failure to invest in the type of services that we know work if we invest in them, such as mental health services, addiction services and addressing deprivation and the lack of opportunities that far too many people feel. We also need to ensure that we have sufficient numbers of gardaí within our communities, especially community gardaí who are engaging with those people who might be susceptible to being led into a life of criminality. They can provide supports to community groups and parents and families more generally in terms of providing recourse.

We have to address the issues in the criminal justice system as well, such as the Courts Service delays. The reason we have so many people on bail at any given time, whether on remand or at large, is because of the delays within the Courts Service. There are also issues in relation prison overcrowding. I understand the societal reason it is done and the fact that we have to understand the concerns of victims and people in communities, but the truth of the matter in Ireland today is that imprisoning somebody for a short period of time is a waste of money. Essentially, all we are doing is providing an opportunity for those individuals to make contacts to commit new crimes when they come out because they are not receiving the supports that they need to prevent recidivism and address the underlying issues as to why they found themselves in prison in the first place.

On the reflections on our visit to Limerick Prison, I met some young lads who, on the face of it, were gentlemen. They were very polite. They were up for the craic. I could see that. However, they will spend a short number of months in Limerick Prison in cells of two, three and four in tiny rooms for large parts of the day without the access to the full educational supports that they need. It is virtually statistically 100% or as close as we can get on these matters that those men will return to prison, possibly having committed even more serious crimes. We need to address that.

On drug use, I am astounded at the prevalence of cocaine in the most rural community that we can think of. Every city suburb and city district has clearly got a prevalence of cocaine, but in every regional town and small village down to a parish hall within a stone's throw, cocaine is prevalent. We need to tackle the reasons our young people and not so young people see the need to purchase it in the first place and how it is that product is getting into so many communities at such a rate that it feels now that we are trying to push the tide out with a fork. Does the Minister wish to make any closing remarks?

I agree with virtually everything the Chair has said. On the last point, it is important for us to remind people who are taking cocaine and paying for it that they are supporting an industry that is using violence against people and destroying people's lives. The people who burn houses, intimidate people and kill people do it because they do not want their cocaine business interrupted. We have lots of young ethical, middle-aged ethical and old ethical people in the country. We need to remind them that there is a consequence to the purchase of drugs and cocaine. Society needs to get more mature about its consequences. We boycott certain products because we do not want to support the underlying manufacturer. People need to be aware of what they are doing when they are taking drugs. Unfortunately, they do not reflect on that enough.

On that note, I thank Minister for being here and the support of his officials. I thank our secretariat for facilitating the meeting. I propose that we publish the Minister's opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. We have some housekeeping matters that we will deal with in private session immediately.