We move to our discussion on social policy, including social welfare issues, with representatives from Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, and the Citizens Information Board, CIB.

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make any charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be asked to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction that I might make.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, the Leinster House complex. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to contribute to the meeting. I remind all of those in attendance to make sure their mobile phone is switched off or in silent mode.

I thank the witnesses for attending to discuss social policy, with reference to social protection and welfare issues. As a committee, we look forward to engaging with them and to gaining their insights into a range of social policy issues, with MABS actively supporting this. The meeting also affords an opportunity to discuss the key issues and trends presenting before and across MABS services at this time.

From MABS, I welcome Mr. Ger O'Brien, national development officer, and Mr. Michael Doherty and Ms Michelle O'Hara, regional managers. From the Citizens Information Board, I welcome Mr. Graham Long, chief executive, Ms Caroline Mitchell, head of division, and Ms Joan O'Connor, social policy and research executive.

I invite Ms O'Hara to make her opening remarks.

MABS welcomes the opportunity to contribute to the committee’s deliberation on the topical issues and trends presenting to our front-line services, and-or any policy issues impacting on clients, specifically including the cost of living and energy poverty, social welfare supports and income maximisation, financial inclusion and financial literacy, adult literacy and digital literacy, and budgeting advice and supports. My colleagues and I are conscious that the Citizens Information Service, CIS, also attended this committee this morning.

MABS is Ireland’s national, State-funded organisation dedicated to providing free, confidential and independent support to individuals experiencing financial difficulty. We were established in 1992 in response to rising levels of personal debt and financial exclusion. MABS has developed into a central component of Ireland’s social support infrastructure. We operate through a nationwide network of offices and are funded by the Citizens Information Board, ensuring accessibility of services for individuals and families across the country. These services are provided in person at MABS offices nationwide as well as through our national helpline and our website.

MABS was restructured in 2018 from 51 local offices into eight regional service delivery companies and two support companies, which are MABS Support and National Traveller MABS. Since our foundation, MABS has focused on promoting financial stability and preventing over-indebtedness among vulnerable households. Initially designed as a community-based response to growing consumer debt, the service has expanded significantly over the past 34 years. Our role has evolved from providing basic budgeting services to delivering specialised money advice, advocacy and support for our clients, navigating increasingly complex credit and lending environments. Today, we are widely recognised as a client-centred service that contributes not only to individual financial recovery but also to broader financial inclusion in Ireland.

In 2025, 16,526 new clients presented to MABS for assistance with money management and debt advice. The issues clients presented with are wide and varied. In 2025, the most frequently cited reasons for presenting to MABS were utility and rent arrears at 26.2% of cases, mortgage arrears at 23.3%, personal debt at 22.6%, and budgeting assistance at 13.6%.

We have a client-centred and client support approach to our service delivery. A defining feature of our service is its holistic, client-centred and non-judgmental approach. Our free services are delivered with an emphasis on independence, confidentiality, respect and trust. Advisers work collaboratively with clients to build financial capability, ensuring that clients not only address immediate debt concerns but also develop the skills required for effective money management in the future. Early management with MABS is strongly encouraged, as timely intervention can significantly improve financial outcomes and reduce the risk of long-term over-indebtedness. In brief, our strategy is focused on supporting financial well-being and preventing problem debt through accessible, free, client-centred services.

Our approach is built around several key priorities. The first is early intervention, encouraging individuals to seek help before financial difficulties escalate. The second is debt resolution, working with creditors to establish affordable and sustainable repayment arrangements. The third is financial inclusion, ensuring that vulnerable or socially excluded groups can access essential financial services and supports. Overall, our aim is to reduce over-indebtedness, strengthen financial capability and promote long-term financial stability and independence for individuals and households. The fourth is social policy, which involves enhancing research outputs, improving data collection and undertaking policy engagement processes. Our work in this area ensures that the lived experience of MABS clients is at the fore of advocacy initiatives as in the recent research on families living in mortgage arrears and living in homes with defective concrete blocks.

In terms of today's discussion, we outline how MABS operates across several priority areas and the impact of these supports on client well-being. The first is cost of living and energy poverty. MABS actively supports households experiencing financial strain due to rising living expenses and energy costs. Cost-of-living increases are manifest under many headings.

Of clients presenting in 2025, 16.4% cited utility arrears as their main issue of concern, 9.8% cited rent arrears as their concern and a further 1.8% came because they had no food, no money or stated poverty was their reason for coming to MABS. Some 13.6% of those presenting specifically sought support with budgeting, clearly an indicator they were having difficulty in making ends meet. Collectively these categories represent 7,461 new clients in 2025. Total utility debt amounted to €3.74 million. While working with clients in 2023, €4.3 million was accessed from the hardship funds put in place by the energy providers. In 2024, this figure was circa €1 million, excluding Bord Gáis, which could not make MABS-specific figures available. In all, 2,126 utility bills were managed. Almost 1,600 payment plan solutions were put in place.

From information circulated by the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities, it is noted that although increasing, only a small percentage of those in arrears are in repayment arrangements and successful completion rates of these plans are poor. MABS contends that repayment plans need to be affordable to the household to increase the success rate of these plans.

On social welfare supports and income maximisation, income maximisation is central to the MABS service model. Advisers conduct comprehensive financial assessments to determine whether clients are receiving their full entitlement. By way of example, in analysing data of active clients in one region in 2026, 15% of active clients were assisted in accessing entitlements and other income supports. This is a significantly high percentage of clients who prior to coming to MABS were not availing of the supports available to them.

When low-income households seek help, they can encounter gaps or delays in the social support system. Community welfare officers administer additional needs payments, ANPs, one-off supplementary payments for people who cannot meet exceptional expenses such as high utility bills, appliances, or urgent costs. Given our role in assisting clients in preparing documentation to support ANP applications, when the need is urgent MABS strongly supports the additional needs payments system as a vital safety valve for those in crisis and we recommend that the system is continuously monitored so that any administrative hurdles or delays are identified and then eliminated so that a person in energy arrears avoids falling into debt or loss of supply.

On financial inclusion and financial literacy, MABS promotes financial inclusion by supporting individuals who may have limited access to mainstream financial services. This includes people on low incomes, those with a history of debt, or individuals who may be excluded from traditional banking systems. In 2025, MABS delivered 507 money management education events nationwide, including 302 education sessions reaching over 12,000 people directly and an estimated 45,000 individuals overall through public events, expos and media engagement. This achieved strong national coverage, with engagement among second and third level students, community groups, adult learners and individuals experiencing financial vulnerability.

Education sessions consistently focused on budgeting, borrowing and cost of credit, savings promotion, scam and fraud awareness and improving understanding of MABS services. Targeted delivery ensured access for groups at higher risk of financial exclusion, including low-income households, migrants and IPAS residents, Travellers, people with disabilities, older people, prisoners, homeless service users and those experiencing mental health or addiction challenges.

Feedback from MABS front-line services highlights that financial education must be accompanied by structural and policy supports to achieve lasting financial inclusion. Advisers report growing pressures linked to housing insecurity, energy poverty, rising borrowing costs and increased reliance on high-cost credit and buy-now-pay-later products, particularly among marginalised communities with limited access to mainstream banking and affordable financial products.

The recommendations set out in section 2 of our pre-budget submission emphasise a preventative, inclusion-focused approach, including stronger homelessness-prevention measures, enhanced energy affordability protections, improved access to affordable credit and banking and reforms to debt resolution supports. These proposals align closely with the objectives of the national financial literacy strategy, recognising that improved financial knowledge must be matched with accessible, fair and consumer-friendly financial systems.

On adult literacy and digital literacy, we adopt an inclusive communication style, ensuring that financial information is explained clearly and accessibly. Where literacy or digital challenges are identified, clients may be supported in completing forms, understanding financial documentation, or accessing online platforms. MABS also collaborates with complementary support services to ensure clients receive the additional educational assistance they may require.

On financial influencers, the growing reliance on finfluencers reflects a shift away from traditional financial advice, partly because professional services are perceived as less accessible. However, the evidence suggests this trend can increase exposure to misinformation, heighten financial risk and contribute to poor outcomes. Finfluencers and influencer-style promotions are contributing to a shift in how Irish consumers access financial guidance, but the data points to substantial risks especially where advice is unregulated, promotional or fraudulent. Our belief in improved financial capability not only helps clients resolve immediate financial challenges but also reduces the likelihood of recurring debt, supporting long-term economic participation.

On budgeting advice and supports, notably since Covid-19 increasing numbers of clients are presenting to MABS for support with budgeting. In 2025, 2,390 clients sought assistance to enhance their budgeting skills. This number was an 18% increase on 2024 and continues the increasing trend since the pandemic. This trend is a very welcome development as prevention is better than cure. Good budgeting skills enable clients to exit and-or avoid over indebtedness. As part of the MABS process all clients are provided with budgeting advice and guidance.

Finally turning to high-cost credit and financial exclusion, at the lower end of the income spectrum, many individuals cannot access mainstream credit at all due to impaired credit history. They often turn to high-cost credit providers, who in Ireland can legally charge interest up to 48%, or to newer forms of high-cost credit like buy now, pay later, BNPL, services. There is an increasing trend in that direction. While these might cover a short-term need the interest rate eats up any income they might have, necessitating borrowing again, so that people get into a particular cycle. Certain marginalised groups have higher exposure to these forms of credit, partly due to financial exclusion. The “It Makes Sense” loan scheme through credit unions is something we seek to promote further. However, it is one product and MABS position is more needs to be done to provide affordable credit alternatives. Financial education can help, but education alone will not solve the problem if someone simply lacks the opportunity to access credit at a lower cost.

MABS adopts an holistic and preventative approach to financial support, recognising that financial hardship is often interconnected with broader social and economic factors.

Through targeted interventions in areas such as today's topics, MABS empowers clients to achieve greater financial stability. We have a proven and trusted money advice process that encompasses education, advocacy and personalised guidance and positions MABS as a critical support to those within Ireland’s framework experiencing financial vulnerability.

I thank members for the opportunity. We welcome any questions they might have.

I thank Ms O'Hara for the comprehensive statement.

I thank Ms O'Hara for the comprehensive report. I do not think there was anything left out. I could not see that there was anyway. I thank the witnesses for the work they do. From the local authority point of view, they recommend loads of people to go to talk to MABS, as does everybody else. It should be widely circulated that some interest rates could be up to 48%. It would not be known to the majority of people in this country that something like that can happen. It is interesting to see the buy now pay later one. That can be a recipe for disaster for people. The earlier MABS comes in, the better it is for all of us. That is something the witnesses should keep out there for people because it is the most important thing.

What is the average waiting time for an initial face-to-face appointment with an adviser across the various offices?

It is about a week to get an appointment, from the first contact to an appointment being set up.

Even if someone walks in off the street.

Yes.

Well done. Fair play to the service. If there are delays in certain areas, what steps are taken to reduce waiting times?

I can only speak to the region I have. If we have a longer waiting time in one region, we can use support from a different office to support people and reduce the waiting time. We also give clients the opportunity to deal with the service remotely. Although the majority of clients prefer face to face, some avail of that opportunity.

Can a person use any MABS office in a county?

Anywhere in the country.

This can be very embarrassing for people, so that is great.

We have a national helpline as well.

That is grand. In terms of debt relief notices or personal insolvency arrangements made by MABS, does it have a mechanism for measuring their success?

There is a small take-up of the insolvency options, particularly the debt relief notice, which deals with lower levels of unsecured debt, and the debt settlement arrangement, which deals with amounts over €35,000 of unsecured debt. Once the debt relief notice is approved and goes through, there is a supervision period of three years, which we have advocated to be shortened. It is out of kilter with, say, bankruptcy, where the supervision period is 12 months. The success rate for those that go through is very high. Almost all of them go through and are successful.

The difficulty arises where we identify clients who may be entitled to apply for a debt relief notice. Only about a third follow through to completion of the insolvency arrangement. About a third do not proceed by choice, generally because of risking access to credit. That is a significant barrier, as is the three-year supervision period. Most people are optimistic and believe their circumstances will improve. They would be required to make additional payments into the arrangement if that happened. The middle third do not follow through the process. That is our experience.

How amenable are creditors to entering into arrangements? How often are these cases successful?

In terms of unsecured debt, we find creditors are generally amenable to looking at arrangements and putting them in place. Progress is being made on utilities. A number of years back, customers would be given a very short window to try to address arrears. There is some movement to lengthen the period, which makes arrangements more successful.

The mortgage side is about 25% of our clients. The code of conduct on mortgage arrears lists about 13 solutions. We would like to see all lenders having to offer all those solutions. What happens is they pick and choose and a solution that might work in a particular case may not be available from a particular lender. Then we are into the mortgage being unsustainable. We think some movements will happen there.

Regarding rent arrears in local authorities, the first point of call is talking to MABS. Is MABS happy with the affiliation between local authorities, itself and the client?

Our experience is it can vary from local authority to local authority. We try to build good working relationships with all local authorities but some are more successful than others.

Has MABS seen cases where clients return having not successfully completed a previous arrangement?

Yes. We looked at that last year in our region and found that about 50% of the people who return had not completed the process in the first instance. It is positive that they come back. We are doing a pilot in our region. We have a lot of documentation that we have in the past front-loaded. We are looking at putting that further down the process so the first meeting or two is about listening to what the client wants from MABS.

The rate of return is high. Are there any trends behind that such as addiction to gambling or alcohol or whatever?

No. That is probably something we need to look at. Last year we looked at those who came back. The main reason was they did not follow through the process in the first place but we have not analysed the underlying reasons.

The Central Bank has recorded a downward trend in mortgage arrears for primary dwellings, which is welcome. Would MABS support that?

There is a number of factors in there. The overall trend is certainly down in the number of arrears. There are 56,000 restructured mortgages reported every quarter by the Central Bank. We would contend that about 26,000 of those are non-permanent solutions, the biggest portion of which is split mortgages. That is about 23,000. With a lot of those mortgages, there is a lump sum to be addressed. We are 18 years on from 2008 and the financial crash, and that issue needs to be addressed. One of the positive things from all the restructurings is the vast majority of people are up to date with their repayment arrangements.

Have numbers attending MABS for assistance with mortgage arrears through the abhaile scheme fallen in recent years or do they remain consistent?

Those figures would be pretty consistent with previous years.

I thank the witnesses for attending. As Deputy Aird said, they provide fantastic services. It is great the public can avail of these services. Generally, MABS is very successful but there are difficult cases. I am working with a few very difficult cases. Ms O'Hara said 23.3% of MABS cases involve mortgage debts. What is the number of actual cases?

For 2025, that figure is 4,100. In 2024, it was 4,500 cases. Those are new clients who presented with mortgage issues.

Is that on an upward trajectory or is it going down?

The figures I have here in front of me are for 2024 and 2025. There is a slight reduction in 2025 compared with 2024. Approximately 25% of our new clients presenting in 2024 were in mortgage arrears. That was 4,500 in 2024 and in 2025 it was 4,100, or 23% of our new clients presenting. There was a slight reduction.

The area I am going to focus on is families who may have their house sold to a vulture fund. I think it is the most important area for families in particular. When MABS advisers encounter what might be breaches of the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, anti-money laundering, data protection or other key breaches in enforcement by lenders or vulture funds, what are the advisers expected to do? Are they empowered to formally challenge or escalate dubious or unlawful conduct by lenders or vulture funds? Are they to continue on regardless? Do the witnesses understand the question I am asking?

Yes. There are a couple of approaches we would take. First, we do have links and engage frequently with Banking & Payments Federation Ireland, BPFI, the representative body for banks and non-banks. We are directly linked with the director of mortgages there and have frequent meetings where we have the opportunity, if there is a particular trend, to address that with them. For example, two of us have a meeting with the non-banks next Tuesday to address any trend issues. If there are specific issues, then the adviser is empowered in terms of advice to the client and outlining whatever process of appeal or otherwise is available to them to try to challenge the issues. MABS advisers are not legal advisers, so we have to bear that in mind. We have boundaries in place. If there is something obvious and they come across it, they will provide the client with advice and support. That may be support up to an appeal to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, which we do as well. As I said, we highlight to the umbrella groups what trends or issues we are encountering.

Can MABS feed into policy?

MABS Support is one of the support companies available to us and working alongside us. In MABS Support there is a social policy division. If we identify something trend-wise, we will work with MABS Support to gather the data and utilise the professionals within MABS Support to escalate to whomever we need to escalate to.

If an adviser felt that a vulture fund or a lender had done something unlawful, who would they escalate to?

That would be the Central Bank, because they are all regulated.

MABS does feed into the Central Bank.

Yes, we do.

I know this is only opinion, but in Ms O'Hara's opinion, has the advocacy role diminished since MABS came in under citizens information?

I joined MABS in 2018 when the restructuring occurred. It has never been suggested to me in almost eight years that the MABS role has diminished at all. I would say it has been further strengthened in a lot of areas, for example with the personal insolvency legislation, as Mr. Doherty highlighted. We would like to see the review of the Personal Insolvency Act undertaken. That has been outstanding since, I think, 2019. We would like an opportunity to feed into that. I would not suggest at all that the advocacy role in MABS has been diminished, no.

Just to be clear, Ms O'Hara does not think it would ever be the case that an adviser could be at risk at enforcing something that is illegal.

Our advisers are not legal advisers.

I know that.

As I suggested, like all of us, in that role they have boundaries. We will certainly do whatever we can ourselves in our role, whether we are money advisers or dedicated mortgage arrears advisers. If something is beyond what we can advise on and beyond our boundaries, we will then provide a roadmap for that client to pursue whatever they need to pursue. We need to be careful about giving advice where we are not entitled to do so.

I am finding that borrowers are repeatedly assured that even where loans were sold, their rights, particularly the code of conduct of mortgage arrears, are fully protected. Is MABS finding any evidence to the contrary?

I am not aware of anything to the contrary of that where the rights are not being protected. What we do find sometimes, which comes down to financial literacy, is that there is a lack of understanding of what arrangements individuals might have had with the original bank, let us say, before the loan is sold on. We do see that from time to time, where a mortgage-holder may be of the view that they have got something particular in place, let us say a five-year fixed interest rate mortgage that cannot be reviewed without a financial review in five years' time. Sometimes the devil is in the detail, and it may be that it is a variable rate rather than a fixed rate, that type of thing. Within my regions, I have certainly not seen anything that is not within the rights. It may not be what I want and we certainly do see cases where, from the point of view of the financial literacy piece, people do not fully understand what original alternative repayment arrangement, ARA, they had with the bank in the first instance.

We are out of time now. Deputy O'Reilly is next.

I apologise for not being here earlier. I had to speak in the Dáil but I had a chance to read the opening statement before I came in. I have a couple of questions. The document refers to 7,461 new clients in 2025. How is this year by comparison? Are the figures broadly similar, up or down? Will the witnesses offer an explanation for any changes?

Across the country, new client numbers are up 16% this year, in January 2026 versus January 2025.

That is what I suspected. The document MABS gave us says that 26.2% of those cases comprise people presenting with utility and rent arrears. I suspect I know the answer to this question but I will ask it anyway so the experts can agree with me and I might think I am right. Did the withdrawal of energy credits have an impact on that, whereby it pushed up the numbers of people attending? Would I be right in saying it did?

It is probably too early to tell, to be honest. The level of referral is very high anyway. We know what the figures are. On the role MABS is playing in helping people, the significant thing it is doing is managing our stakeholders, in other words the energy suppliers themselves, in terms of hardship funds. The hardship funds that are in place are with Electric Ireland, which has a central application system that comes initially from MABS services countrywide and then through us in MABS Support. The applications are ferried on to the energy providers and they make a decision as to what amount of credit or writedown on the arrears they will give. On hardship funds, to give the Deputy feedback from the front line, a MABS money adviser in Cavan said a credit to a family's energy account was life-changing. A money adviser in Leitrim said the hardship fund has been a fantastic support to many of their clients. A better one, if we could call it that, from a MABS client, describes getting fantastic news as they had agreed to write off the balance in this case. They continue to pay weekly, which is a crucial part of what MABS does.

My strap-line at the moment is that "B" stands for budgeting advance. We will look forensically at budgets. We go through every part of a budget, not just for energy but also for secured and unsecured debt and the proposal that will hit that creditor, or be delivered to the creditor. We do not hit creditors; that was a bad choice of phrase-----

I understand the point Mr. O'Brien is making. I will just drill down into that a little. On energy specifically, because it comes across my desk quite often now in a way it did not for a while, it is now one of the top issues that come through my door. I appreciate there are hardship funds and so on, but a lot of the energy companies try to move people onto meters, be they hardship meters or "voluntary" meters. I am doing the bunny quotes for the benefit of anyone listening and not watching. We already pay the highest electricity rates in Europe, but these people are paying the highest of the high rates. From a budgeting perspective, how can MABS help people to get the cheapest form of energy to heat their homes? A person came into my office a few weeks ago. She was a young woman with two children and no family support and she had run out of credit in the meter. What do people do? They go around the corner to the community welfare officer. She was told to fill out a form, but her house was going to be cold that night. I spoke to her subsequently. We sorted that out and when she came back into the office I had a conversation with her. I looked at what she was paying for her energy. Surely as a budgeting tip, the first thing people should be able to do is access the cheapest form of energy. It is all the same when it comes out of the plug. The only difference is how much people pay for it. Is that something MABS has encountered?

Yes, straight off the front line again. We have good relationships with the energy suppliers at senior executive level, and senior manager level in the case of Electric Ireland, which has more than 50% of the market. We met its representatives yesterday and brought up that very point. We will be taking that point forward with Electric Ireland.

People who are on the vulnerable persons register technically do not get disconnected, but if they are on a meter, they do, because they have no-----

They self-disconnect. That is the problem.

I call them micro-disconnections, because they are never for longer than a day or two, but the house is still cold. People still cannot heat the home or power their wheelchair or all these things. That seriously needs to be looked at.

In the experience of MABS, do people experience these micro-disconnections? We send people to the the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the community welfare officer or MABS and so on, but in the moment they need the energy. I am glad MABS has raised it with the energy companies. I have also raised it with the Minister and I will continue to do so, because those micro-disconnections will never appear on a spreadsheet, but people are still cold. I have met many people in that situation and they need the capacity to turn the meter back on in the short term and, second, they need to get onto the most cost-effective tariffs. I do not believe, notwithstanding the good relationship MABS has with the energy providers, that the people who can least afford to pay for energy are paying the least. They are paying the most, in my experience.

There are a number of things we can do in budgeting and pointing people to look at changing supplier to get reduced rates. The other thing they can do is average bill paying. Perhaps there should be more of an onus on the suppliers to provide information to people because I could not say what my average electricity bill is. For budgeting, having that knowledge would be huge and an opportunity. Equally, where there are reductions and contracts end, the onus should be on the supplier to tell people their contracts are at renewal point and that it has a better offer potentially available. That information would be useful.

The other point the Deputy made is about accessing exceptional needs payments. Since that has gone digital, it is not as instantaneous, so there is a gap when money is not available.

Yes, it is about that gap.

There is emergency credit on a pay-as-you-go meter.

There is, but the problem is when it runs out.

I thank the witnesses for being here. Earlier we had an engaging discussion with the Citizens Information Board and MABS is complementing that. I am trying to put forward the person in a financial crisis. Their heads are in a spin because the ESB bills are coming and there is talk of disconnection. There are water charges, food to put on the table and all the stuff people have to do to run a house day to day and week to week. They have other responsibilities as well. They may have children in school and so on. Interestingly, I dealt with a situation a few weeks ago where this was the case and I found it difficult to know where to direct that person. When we had the discussion with the Citizens Information Board, I thought I should have sent him there. Then listening to MABS, I thought that was where I should have sent him. The person had been to the social welfare officer. He needed around €1,000 to fix himself, if you like, to get rid of all the bills and he would be emotionally attached again, but he could not for the life of him get his hands on that kind of money. When people like that present to MABS, what does it say to them? I read in the statement about education and informing people about the available supports, but with the best will in the world, when people are in a frenzy or financial predicament, the last thing they want to hear is financial advice. They want to get their hands on the money to get rid of these bills. Am I right to think that?

We got some feedback from one of our advisers who mirrored exactly what the Deputy said. The cases coming in are complex. People are on low incomes and are very good at budgeting the income they have. Their mortgages and personal loans are up to date, but they are struggling to put food on the table and keep the electricity bill paid. On the other end, there are people in poverty, primarily those who are dependent on social welfare, and the bills are just getting away from them because they do not have enough to cover them. It is difficult. That is one of the things our advisers constantly say to us, that the cases have become much more complex, in the context that it is much more difficult to find solutions for those cases. We look at exceptional needs payments or the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the payments have been removed somewhat with the CWO not being available to people easily. It is a difficult thing to deal with and all we can do is try to advise people to look at how they might reduce a utility bill or, as an alternative where there is personal debt, reduce how much is being paid on that. The counter-argument to that is that they would be damaging their credit rating, which might have an impact on them getting additional credit down the road.

In some respects, we need everyone involved in finding the solution. To come back to the previous points about offering people lower energy rates, most people's contracts roll over and if there are lower electricity rates available, they are not made available to them. The issue with credit facilities is that poor people pretty much always pay more. We need a universally available credit facility to be available to people on low incomes at a reasonable rate so they are not paying 48% because that is eating a huge chunk of income that could be used more effectively elsewhere. I take the Deputy's point, however. Our advisers are finding it very difficult as well to manage these cases.

One of the things we all plead for is what could be described as a one-stop shop for people who are in that kind of predicament. My local town is blessed to have outlets run by Citizens Information Board and MABS. Social welfare offices, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and all of that are in the town too, which is fantastic. For someone in it a bit of a crisis, however, it would be lovely to have a one-stop shop where they could speak to a representative who could advise or move them over to the MABS people, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul or the Department of Social Protection. There is nothing more debilitating or annoying for someone in that predicament than to have to go from one institution to the other, finding it extremely clumsy and awkward. They have to explain themselves a thousand times and they come away bereft because they have not reached the point they wanted to get to.

MABS is as close to a one-stop shop that you will get. It has strong ties with the community. The Citizens Information Board complements MABS. It is a good idea for such people to inform themselves by looking at the website, which has correctly received high praise by all here today, and then present to MABS. MABS has good relationships with all kinds of creditors and it deals with secured debt, banks, mortgages, credit unions, unsecured debt and utility companies, as well as local authorities in cases where people live in rented accommodation. A MABS adviser can look at the situation holistically.

I hear what the Deputy said. It is natural for a person to feel like throwing the thing up in the air. A MABS adviser will bring them in, make them feel welcome and go through their situation meticulously and empathetically. For example, he or she will explain that the individual has more expenditure than income, which is a straightforward enough process. In that situation, the individual must either lower the expenditure, so they are breaking even, or increase their income. That is where income maximisation comes in. The Citizens Information Board has explained it very well on its website, and the Citizens Information phone service, CIPS, is very good in that regard too, as is MABS. We are all good at this. Better again is to both lower expenditure and increase income, which will bring the individual in the opposite direction. It is tough but that is what we do. It is tough work but it is carried out empathetically.

Mr. Doherty’s point about the credit rating is a good one, but something has to give. We cannot have a perfect situation. In MABS, we prioritise debt. The first thing is keeping a roof over someone’s head. The next is keeping the heat and lights on so they can cook some food. They are the top two priority debts. Then it is secondary debt, which is basically unsecured bank debt. It could be credit union debt. Basically, we say to the creditors that Patricia, Pat or Pat Ann Patricia can only pay a certain amount of cent per euro.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I appreciate their being here, providing information and going through it with us. MABS plays a critical role in society. When I speak to constituents, and also more generally to people around the country, I am concerned that financial literacy in general is not very high. It can be hugely problematic in certain communities and low-income groups in particular. In MABS’ opening statement, I was glad to hear remarks about financial recovery and inclusion being major things it is trying to do, particularly for people on low incomes. I also note the number of people presenting with cost-of-living issues is approximately 7,000 people or about 41% of the new clients MABS receives. That is stark in the context of the cost-of-living crisis more generally. It is something on which I have been quite active.

I am also glad two other points were mentioned, namely, financial influencers and high-cost credit, as MABS calls it. I call it predatory lending. There is a question in this regard. Domestic credit in Ireland is one of the lowest as a percentage of GNI* or as a percentage of GDP in the developed world. We are not as familiar with it in some ways. People will often get themselves into positions where they are going towards an unsecured bank loan with a high interest rate or predatory lending with loan sharks, informal loans and all that kind of stuff. That gets to the heart of this financial literacy question. When that is combined with a severe misinformation and disinformation issue with financial influencers on social media, people can get themselves into very difficult positions very quickly. I wish to hear about the role of MABS and what it does to communicate with people when they are in these precarious positions, how they might get themselves out of them and how it educates them on some of these issues when they are in them. What should we be doing as a country to educate people on some of these ideas? What should we be saying publicly to people about financial influencers, predatory lending and when people should and should not take out credit? I am conscious that there is a dearth of information outside of the MABS. There is a struggle to arm people with the information to understand that while it may sound great to get €1,000 or €10,000 at a high interest rate, it is absolutely going to destroy them. Will the witnesses comment on that concept?

We are working with the CIB on a creditor strategy for the next number of years. We were brought into Grant Thornton. Some of the suggestions we had are that MABS should perhaps have its own finfluencers who can give reliable and accurate information to counter what is available on social media. We certainly encourage the regulation of that sector to ensure that the information is as accurate as can be and that if people are selling product or whatever, it is clearly highlighted. I have seen some cases recently where people were not taken up because that was not the case.

Generally, there is a cohort of people who will not be on social media. We need to have some sort of programme on our national airwaves that reaches that particular group. We see things like “Ear to the Ground” for the farming sector, and maybe we can have something like that. There is definitely a huge knowledge deficit in literacy generally, particularly financial literacy. We had seen that in our work during the crisis when people came to us with complex mortgages and they had no idea what they entered into. It equally extends across the board, however.

Generally, as a society, as I mentioned earlier, there is a need for a low-cost credit savings product to be available and easily accessible to give people alternatives, particularly for those who cannot access mainstream products.

In terms of adult literacy, the definition of "literacy" is all of the foundational skills, or what used to be called the three “Rs” at my age – reading, writing and arithmetic - as well as technology. It is also about people having confidence. This comes from our specialist, Ms Kate Fitzpatrick, who is in the Public Gallery. She has armed me with this information. People have to have the confidence to use it. Therefore, it is about how we get that confidence into people. The members of the committee are the policymakers.

Adult literacy is certainly a hidden driver in financial exclusion. Low literacy will increase the risk of arrears, etc. We urge plain language communication across the whole State sector. In certain sections of society, there are two forms, which is an attempt to cater for someone who might not be as literate as other people. There should just be one form that everyone uses and caters for all sections, however. That is a recommendation from Ms Fitzpatrick.

When it comes to assisted digital support, while digitalisation is great, it cannot be done in isolation or at the expense of face-to-face support.

Face-to-face services and paper options have to remain part of a solution for people as well.

Could Mr. O'Brien give a sense of the kinds of cases that are coming to him in this predatory lending world? What is the most egregious? What is the spectrum and how many people are presenting with those kinds of situations?

It is an interesting question the Deputy asks. On numbers, people will come to us and the two forms of credit they do not initially talk to us about are credit cards and buy now, pay later situations. Generally speaking, people do not see buy now, pay later offers as a form of credit. The reason for that when we dig into it is that on most online platforms, it is the default method of payment. People think I am just paying for it this way. They do not connect it with a credit product. That is the first issue.

Therefore, if they are heavily reliant on buying goods or services through that type of platform and we talk to them about loans and that type of thing, they do not equate it in the same language. Credit cards are the same. Quite often, the credit card is the last thing I tell you about. It is not because I am hiding it from you because even though I owe €10,000 but I am paying my minimum payment every month, I do not see that as a problem for me. I am not understanding it. I understand it when my money adviser goes through the process and outlines it for me and identifies this is what it is actually costing me. However, because I am keeping that wolf from the door and paying the minimum, I do not see that as an issue.

There is more and more of a reliance on buy now, pay later. A couple of years ago, MABS highlighted the increase in availability of BPNL. Now, it can be seen everywhere. You can go into a garage and get your car serviced on a buy now, pay later model. It is absolutely everywhere. There is a lack of understanding of what we can do. MABS needs a greater presence on social media because there is a sector of society we are not reaching through that. Much in the same way Mr. Doherty highlighted the ear to the ground type scenario, we need to increase our accessibility in the digital age we are in. Support in doing that would bring greater rewards.

I will actually bring up with the Minister the need to run those kinds of information campaigns. Ms O'Hara is totally right on the buy now, pay later model. I see it all of the time when I am checking out something online. Klarna is one of the companies in particular. That is not to say this should not be available to people if they want to pursue it.

At that point of them being offered, there is not any information about what is the downside and here is the thing that can get people into a load of trouble, particularly those who have that low level of financial literacy. As Ms O'Hara said, they are paying the minimum payment and getting on with it. They can get themselves into some very deep trouble. In some ways, this is interlinked with the cost-of-living crisis as previous Deputies have said, such as arrears relating to electricity. When you have so many of those competing interests in terms of creditors and you just have leaned into it, it can be a very deep hole to try to get yourself out of, even with the best will in the world. We need to work on that.

I have a very quick point on what the committee can do. The three literacies, adult literacy, financial literacy and digital literacy, are interconnected and inseparable. The key message is education must be accessed by accessible systems. We have to make it possible for people to access and navigate the systems successfully. Moving one is not enough. The three literacies must move in tandem.

One thing that could be done is to teach it in the schools so it is given there. From my knowledge, lending literacy is probably dealt with in home economics, which is a minority subject. It should be one of the core subjects and taught right through the system for the five or so years people are in school. There is a huge deficit out there that needs to be addressed. Let us start with the younger generation where we have a captive audience.

I could not agree more. I studied my first business subject when I was 25 in a master's programme and I had no idea what credit was before that. I went to college and everything. I consider myself a fairly educated person but-----

That was only a couple of years ago. On my own behalf and before we run out of time, I thank MABS so much. When I was elected as a TD in the previous November, one of the first envelopes that came in the door was from the local MABS co-ordinator who had provided me with plenty of material for my office. It is great to see there is collaboration with public representatives throughout the political spectrum. I appreciate the offer of sincerity and opportunity to meet with people in different constituencies. It is very good and it is great to see so much positive activity.

Following on from Deputy O'Reilly's point about the energy companies, I know Mr. O'Brien said he met their representatives. What is the next step? That will be a huge step to put forward. Public representatives from all sides of the House are very anxious that we have that conversation about charging people the highest level of energy costs and their BER rating. Someone came into my office recently who was being charged 21 cent per unit. The next person who came in was being charged 46 cent per unit. There is a huge disparity in the price of electricity from energy company to energy company. I would be encouraged to see if that could be progressed further.

We will. To give a better understanding of what MABS is doing in the energy space at ground level, we meet the energy companies - Electric Ireland, Bord Gáis, SSE Airtricity, Energia and PrepayPower - regularly. Those are our monthly meetings - at a minimum. We are always pressing the case. We can make immediate impacts through hardship funds. That is where a lot of the energy goes. It is really about getting that credit onto the account and getting the arrears looked after that way. It is hopefully done in tandem with an application to a community welfare officer. That will get the debt down as well.

In our pre-budget submission to the Department, we proposed that hardship funds receive matching funding. If the energy companies are putting in this, would the Department of Social Protection, through the community welfare officers and additional needs payments, match that funding? It would make a huge difference to people. It would be massive. To give a couple of our clients very quickly, very common in the stats on the hardship fund are people with health difficulties. It is somewhere around 40% of applicants and 45% are social welfare recipients. That goes to show the price of energy. Energy poverty is about three things: the price of energy, the income of the person and the quality of the stock.

On prepay meters in particular, is there any advance on the charge per unit for that from the energy providers?

Electric Ireland would counter that by saying there is an enduring discount for switching to prepay because there is. You have to take each individual case as it comes. There is an enduring discount for switching over.

That is fair enough.

There is also smart pay as you go now as well. If you have a smart meter, which most people in the country do, a flick of a switch will change that to pay as you go and customers get their enduring discount. The companies will come back to them on that one.

Of those using the hardship fund, 45% are on social welfare and 41% have health issues. That goes to show who they are. We have a huge number of people in electricity arrears at 300,000. On Electric Ireland's hardship fund, 41% of recipients have health problems. Patricia's husband had a heart attack. Pat's wife had a stroke. There are children with autism. There are costs there and 18% are on a low, fixed income and 3% are in redundancy, which is perfectly understandable in a country of full employment.

It is a redundancy. I thank my colleague Gordon Rumley who is sitting in the Gallery. He is our social policy research executive and he has interrogated those figures.

My final question on the “It Makes Sense” loan scheme with the credit unions. It is mentioned quite strongly in the opening statement. Given the fact that there is so much availability of cash and credit within credit unions, how available is that loan and how publicly known is it? I have not heard about it until today. It is an important one to raise.

It is not as available as it could be. There is a choice on behalf of credit unions whether to make it available. The information surrounding it is not as great as it should be either. It can be a solution but in our region we would not hear of a huge number of clients who have said-----

Has MABS spoken to the credit union movement about it?

No. We have limited resources so trying to maintain relationships with all stakeholders is quite difficult. The relationship with the credit union is probably one that has fallen behind a little bit. It is one we need to revisit.

It may be an opportunity for them today to have that discussion.

On financial inclusion, we were approached by both the Irish League of Credit Unions and the Credit Union Development Association, CUDA. There is a possibility of going in wearing one hat and opening a conversation on another thing.

To add to that, my understanding is that there is interest in the credit union movement at the moment around low-cost loans and we have been approached to engage with the MABS companies gathering information on potential products.

I thank everybody for their contributions. I thank Ms Mitchell, Ms O'Connor, Mr. Long, Mr. O'Brien, Ms O'Hara and all the team from MABS, the Citizens Information Service and the Citizens Information Board, including those in the Gallery, for their attendance today. I thank them for their contributions to the meeting and for providing the briefing materials in advance. We appreciate it. It has been an interesting topic to discuss. I am glad we brought the witnesses before the committee. It gave us many insights into what our job is for the next 12 months and how we proceed in terms of policy.