Before we recommence, I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a member's statement is potentially defamatory with regard to an identified person or entity, he or she will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction that I might make. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. This is due to the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to contribute to the meeting. I remind all those in attendance to please turn off their mobile phones or set them to silent mode.

The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the issues highlighted in the report published by the GAA, No One Shouted Stop - Until Now: The GAA's Response to Ireland's Demographic Shift. The report addresses demographic impact across the GAA, the Ladies Gaelic Football Association, LGFA, and the Camogie Association, and the impact on both rural and urban communities. I understand it is the intention of the GAA to publish a follow-up report during the summer and this committee is eager to engage on the issues highlighted. With that in mind, I welcome the following witnesses from the GAA to this morning's meeting: Dr. Peter Horgan, strategy, insights and innovation manager, and Mr. Benny Hurl, chair of the national demographics committee. I invite Dr. Horgan to make his opening remarks.

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to appear before the committee. The GAA welcomes the opportunity to contribute to the committee's work on social protection, rural development, community development and the Gaeltacht. Our submission is based on the work of the GAA national demographics committee and our report, No One Shouted Stop - Until Now: The GAA's Response to Ireland's Demographic Shift. The title reflects a simple reality: Ireland is undergoing profound demographic change. Population growth is increasingly concentrated along the eastern seaboard, within commuter belts and in major urban settlements, while many rural communities are experiencing ageing populations, declining birth rates, outward migration of younger adults and shrinking volunteer capacity. These changes are reshaping communities across the island.

The central message we wish to leave the committee with today is straightforward: demographic change is no longer solely a population issue but is now a community sustainability issue. It affects whether communities retain the schools, clubs, voluntary organisations, services and social connections that allow them to remain vibrant and resilient. The GAA, alongside the LGFA and the Camogie Association, represents more than 2,300 clubs and over 760,000 members across the island of Ireland. These clubs are embedded in towns, villages, parishes, cities and neighbourhoods in every county. While they provide opportunities for sport and physical activity, they also perform a wider societal role. They are places where people volunteer, participate, connect with one another and develop a sense of belonging.

From our perspective, demographic change is already visible within communities. In many rapidly growing urban and commuter settlements, clubs are experiencing unprecedented demand. Facilities are oversubscribed, volunteers are under increasing pressure and community infrastructure is struggling to keep pace with population growth. At the same time, many rural clubs face declining underage numbers, reduced volunteer capacity and growing uncertainty regarding long-term sustainability. The challenge is, therefore, not simply one of growth or decline. Rather, it is a growing imbalance between where people live and where community infrastructure exists.

The demographic evidence highlights the scale of the challenge. Almost one third of the population of the island now live within the wider Dublin commuter belt. More than 43% live along the eastern seaboard. Nearly two thirds of the population live either on the eastern seaboard or within towns and cities with a population of more than 10,000. Perhaps the clearest indication of future trends can be seen in the distribution of young children. Our analysis shows that just 50 club catchment areas now account for one quarter of all children aged between zero and five on the island, while 1,000 clubs share only 22% of that cohort. That is significant because children represent more than future players.

They are future pupils, volunteers, community leaders and active citizens. When young families disappear, schools weaken, clubs weaken, volunteering capacity declines, and local services become increasingly difficult to sustain. What begins as a demographic challenge can quickly become a challenge for community viability. This is why the GAA believes that Gaelic games should be recognised not solely as a sport but as a form of social, community and cultural infrastructure.

Recent independent research estimated that participation and volunteering in Gaelic games generated almost €2.9 billion in social value across the island of Ireland in a single year, with every €1 invested generating approximately €2.30 in social value. The benefits identified included improved health and well-being, stronger social connections, volunteering, civic participation and community cohesion. For the GAA, these findings reinforce an important point: Gaelic games are among Ireland's largest forms of preventative social infrastructure. Every week, clubs bring together children, young people, parents, volunteers and older adults. Clubs provide opportunities for physical activity, leadership, social participation and community engagement. They create spaces where people can build friendships, develop confidence and contribute positively to community life. This contribution is highly relevant to this committee's remit. Many of the challenges facing Ireland today, including loneliness, social isolation, youth disengagement, mental health concerns and ageing population cannot be addressed through financial supports alone. They also require strong local institutions that foster participation, belonging and social connection. Community organisations, such as GAA clubs, provide precisely these opportunities.

The contribution of Gaelic games also extends beyond social outcomes to encompass culture and identity. Gaelic games are among Ireland’s most distinctive indigenous cultural traditions. Through their connection to place, parish and community, clubs help to sustain local identity and collective belonging. This cultural dimension is particularly important in rural and Gaeltacht communities where clubs can contribute to the preservation and transmission of language, cultural and heritage across generations. The continued vitality of these traditions depends not only on preserving the games themselves but also on sustaining the communities in which they are played.

Housing policy is another area where the GAA believes a stronger community sustainability perspective is required. Housing is rightly discussed in terms of supply, affordability and delivery. However, housing policy also influences whether communities have the population base necessary to sustain schools, clubs, voluntary organisations and local services. In rapidly growing areas, housing development has outpaced the provision of community infrastructure. In many rural areas the challenge is one of maintaining sufficient numbers of young people to sustain existing community assets and institutions. The GAA believes there is value in policies that strengthen existing settlements and communities. These include town-centre-first initiatives, vacancy and dereliction regeneration schemes, rural renewal programmes and innovative settlement approaches to help to maintain critical population thresholds within existing communities. Equally important is ensuring new housing developments are accompanied by investment in community, recreation and sporting infrastructure. Communities are not created through housing alone. They emerge through opportunities for interaction, participation and shared experiences.

The committee's remit also encompasses social protection. The GAA believes that community participation should be viewed as an important element of preventative social policy. Across Ireland, GAA clubs provide affordable and accessible opportunities for participation, volunteering and social connection. They support youth development, healthy ageing, inclusion and well-being. They help to integrate newcomers into communities and create opportunities for people of different generations and backgrounds to come together. Strong communities provide better protective benefits that are difficult to replicate through formal services alone. Investment in community participation should therefore be viewed not simply as recreational expenditure, but as preventative social investment.

Volunteering is central to this contribution. Thousands of volunteers coach teams, administer clubs, maintain facilities and support community life across the island. Independent research estimates this replacement value of volunteer contributions at over €1 billion annually. However, volunteer capacity cannot be assumed. Demographic change, increasing governance requirements and changing work patterns are creating new pressures on volunteer organisations. Supporting volunteering through leadership development, training, practical supports and reduced administrative burdens should form a part of broader community development strategy.

The GAA sees significant potential in the development of social enterprise and multi-functional community hubs. Across Ireland, many GAA facilities already serve wider community purposes, supporting well-being initiatives, walking programmes, education initiatives, meetings and social engagements. With the right partnerships and supports, these facilities can play an even greater role in sustaining local communities and supporting local development. Indeed, the GAA is currently working with the Western Development Commission to explore pilot social enterprise initiatives that demonstrate how community facilities can contribute to well-being, inclusion, employment, and community resilience alongside our sporting role.

Addressing demographic change will ultimately require partnership. The GAA and local government increasingly share common concerns regarding population change, community sustainability, infrastructure provision and quality of life. This is why we have strengthened engagement with local authorities and entered into a formal charter with the Association of Irish Local Government to support collaboration on these issues. The GAA believes that stronger co-operation between Government, local authorities, community organisations and voluntary groups will be essential if Ireland is to respond effectively to the demographic challenges now under way.

The GAA message is simple. The challenge facing Ireland is not merely where people live; it is whether communities retain the people, institutions, facilities, volunteers and opportunities for participation that allow them to flourish. Supporting clubs, volunteers and community organisations is not simply about protecting sport. It is about protecting community resilience, social cohesion, cultural heritage and the social fabric of Ireland itself.

I thank Dr. Horgan. I will now invite members to discuss this. I remind members participating remotely to use the raised hand feature and to cancel it once they have spoken. Because we have so much interest in this, I have to limit the contributions to five minutes.

I thank Mr. Hurl, Dr. Horgan and their team for putting together an excellent report. Our job on this committee is to discover how we can best help to implement this excellent report. One of the issues we are facing, including in my area in County Meath, is rural one-off planning where people have to move out of rural areas because they cannot get planning. How would it work if there is more planning in smaller villages and more one-off planning in rural Ireland where people can live in the areas they were brought up in? The report argues that shrinking population is undermining not just clubs, but schools, shops and communities. Do the witnesses believe the State sufficiently recognises how GAA clubs are essential community infrastructure in rural Ireland? What social consequences arise when a rural parish loses its GAA club beyond the obvious sporting aspect? Regarding the GAA, I would sometimes love to see more amalgamation of clubs where good players can join up with the other clubs in the locality that play senior football, hurling or camogie. It stops the good players from leaving small, rural clubs. Amalgamations work in other counties. This is something I would like to see in County Meath where somebody could go to play at a higher level, then come back and play with their own club, whether that is junior or intermediate. The most important thing is working together, whether that is housing, community infrastructure or sport. How best can we work with the GAA to implement this report?

I thank Deputy Guirke. It is very important to say from the outset that this is not uniquely a GAA problem. This is a societal problem that has developed over the course of a very long time, maybe 60 or 70 years. Our report is unashamedly and deliberately titled No One Shouted Stop, taken from the great John Healy book about Charlestown. That was written in 1968. We, as a society and country, have presided over all that has happened in the interim. It looks like John Healy had a crystal ball. He predicted all that was going to happen to rural Ireland and, guess what? It has happened and will continue to happen until we do something about our policies. That is why in 2025 the GAA deliberately put out a report on this. We are shouting stop.

The Deputy asked how the committee can work with us and how we can work with it. It is very important to say that the GAA is a very willing partner with the Government. Our report makes it very clear that we are unable to make the structural changes to policies and everything else that are required to ensure in rural Ireland, which is bleeding right now, that bleeding stops and that rural Ireland is protected, enhanced, improved and rejuvenated.

The Deputy talked about one-off rural housing. That is very important.

Everywhere we go that is mentioned. However, is that the panacea? No, it is not, because even if you do get planning permission in rural Ireland, you may not be able to get the services or be able afford to them. You may not be able to afford the house because of construction inflation and things like that.

Apparently, there is a new policy directive coming from the housing Minister shortly, which we welcome. Regarding how the committee can work with us to sustain rural Ireland, as well as one-off houses, which are obviously very important, we would also advocate for small clusters of houses in towns and villages - six, eight, ten, 12 houses. That would really sustain a community.

It is very important to say the GAA is the biggest voluntary community and sporting organisation. As well as playing games, community is a huge part of what we do. The Deputy asked about the social impact of a club going under. It is huge. If you look at our report, in every parish in Ireland, you will see we have a presence. No other sport or organisation has that. We desperately want to retain that and we need the committee's help. We implore Members to help us in anything they can do.

I thank Mr. Hurl for that. Due to time constraints, I will move directly to the next speaker, Deputy Aird.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the booklet. I am sure everybody will get great reading out of it. Before I start, I wish to keep former Uachtarán Chumann Lúthchleas Gael, Liam O'Neill, in our thoughts today because he would love to be reading this book but he is not in a great place at present. I mention him because he is a fellow Laois man and I know him very well. I have served on a good few committees with him.

I will ask a few questions which the witnesses can answer "Yes" or "No" to or whatever. What is the single biggest demographic trend currently threatening the sustainability of rural GAA clubs, and roughly how many clubs are at risk if that trends continues?

Essentially, it is purely a demographics issue. The clubs are under threat for one reason and one reason only: numbers.

That is grand, thanks. Are current population growth patterns creating a two-tier GAA, with rapidly expanding urban clubs benefiting while rural clubs struggle to field things?

Yes and no, and I do not like using that. Yes, the bigger clubs are getting bigger, simply because of numbers, but that is not uniquely in urban Ireland. There are many big urban clubs, but there are also some significant rural clubs that are traditionally big. That is why I say there is a "yes" and "no" to that.

What evidence does the GAA have that the housing policy and rural depopulation are directly affecting participation rates and club viability?

Based on everywhere we go, and we have been to every county at this stage, there are demographics officers in every county who report this is a huge issue.

So, planning is a huge issue.

Planning is a massive policy issue, and it is an impediment to the development of houses and communities.

On another one thing I have heard debated in the Dáil already, is the GAA's infrastructure in fast-growing urban areas keeping pace with population growth or are communities being left without adequate pitches and facilities in urban areas?

In urban areas, and this is a result of demographics, and we are not here to apportion blame to anybody, we have presided over the development of urban Ireland, in the big towns and cities, what we have seen is there has been some degree of planning by the GAA, Government and local authorities, but in our opening statement we said the provision of facilities has not kept pace with the development of houses in those areas.

Do the witnesses think the GAA believes the Government planning decisions have sufficiently considered the need for sporting and community infrastructure when improving large-scale housing developments?

I will let Dr. Horgan talk about the OPR on that piece.

In short and at present, they have not really, no. The point we would make is that we would like to see sport and recreation facilities designated as essential social infrastructure.

That was going to be my next question. The answer is "No".

As part of the planning process-----

I want to be able to quote Dr. Horgan on that when I am sitting down talking to each county council.

That is okay.

What specific interventions would the GAA like Government to prioritise to ensure rural communities do not lose clubs that are often their primary social and cultural hubs?

For rural communities, as Mr. Hurl said, we believe a huge element of this is related to housing and the ability to live where you are from. We have spoken again and again about ensuring planning and local authority development plans and those works can provide relatively small numbers of houses in clusters in our smaller settlements.

Yes, that was said. No one has shouted stop, so looking ahead in ten to 15 years, what demographic changes concern the GAA the most? What will be the consequences for, say, participation, volunteerism and community cohesion if those trends are not addressed?

If you look at the statistics very quickly, one in three people lived in urban Ireland 60 or 70 years ago. That is now two out of three. In recent years, the evidence has shown that number is growing exponentially. If you assume that trend continues, then our issues will become even greater.

That is why we have to home in on making sure there are developments in rural areas.

Thank you very much, Deputy.

I also wish to reiterate the comments the Deputy made regarding iar-uachtarán, Liam O'Neill, who is a great man. He is a great GAA man, uachtarán and person, who was at the forefront of demographics in his presidency. I wish him and his family well.

His rural club was Trumera. I thank everyone who is associated with the GAA. I am a next-door neighbour of the county pitch in Laois and right beside the centre of excellence. I see all the great work being done every day, seven days a week.

I thank Deputy Aird for that. I call Deputy Wall.

I welcome Dr. Horgan, Mr. Hurl and our former colleague. This is a very important conversation we are having. I want to concentrate on the report on the eastern seaboard. As is mentioned in the report, 62% of the population is there, where I also live. I am a proud member of the GAA and have been very active in it all my life. However, I have seen both sides of it. I have seen the rural and the urban, and I have a couple of questions on that.

On the rural side of things, many of the clubs in my own County Kildare are struggling rurally. They are smaller, junior clubs, and amalgamation has been mentioned. Where does the GAA see that? Is that something that is inevitable in the GAA, or are we looking at ensuring those rural clubs continue as a separate identity? That is a question many rural clubs in Kildare are asking right now, and I am sure it is a question being replicated around the country.

We have been working on demographics for quite some time now. Wherever we go, we ask those clubs the Deputy is referring to whether we want to keep all the clubs we have currently in the GAA alive and kicking. The answer is most definitely "yes". I have never come across a GAA club that has said it is struggling, is about to go under, and they would rather go somewhere else. In fact, as the Deputy will know, quite a lot of them would rather cut off their right arm than go down the road and join the neighbours.

In that regard, the GAA can make certain structural changes internally, which we have done, and there are a couple of motions at congress on the definition of a club which are designed to do exactly what the Deputy has talked about there with regard to keeping clubs going with numbers of players, etc. There is a raft of things we are doing and will do to ensure every club has an opportunity to survive.

As regards amalgamations, of course there will be amalgamations. There have been all down the years, and people say there may be more of them. In the famous south Kerry minor final or whatever, there were five clubs against three clubs, or whatever it was.

That has been a feature of the GAA for a long time. At the same time, amalgamations are very useful and forming independent teams is useful. However, I think the greatest desire is to wear your own jersey and keep your own identity for as long as possible.

The next question is to look at the urban areas. One of the issues that comes out of the report is that in my own county, Kildare, we have 8.3 teams for every playing pitch we have, which is one of the highest rates in the country. Athy Camogie Club is an example, which is dependent on the five local GAA clubs to play its matches. The club has a membership of 250 young women who go out every weekend to play camogie but it does not have its own pitch. I would like Mr. Hurl's comments on a issue I have been raising, as he mentioned community hubs. There is a need to identify land. The problem we have is that land is needed for housing. What we want to do now and what we have proposed is to have a community hub in towns with a population of more than 5,000, where all sports come together and play. Is the GAA looking at this? Would the GAA support it because Government and local authorities need to get involved here, purchase and develop land where all sports clubs come together. The GAA is where my heart is and it could avail of the facilities. We have so many big clubs now. Mr. Hurl mentioned 1,000 clubs where only 22% of the children who can play are actually playing. They do not get playing as they cannot get a pitch to play on. Would the GAA support us in encouraging the Government to start looking at local authority community hubs where additional playing facilities would be available?

Deputy Aird wanted a yes-no answer. In this case, I am very happy to say that municipal facilities, community hubs, are definitely something that the GAA supports. The day of the GAA club developing its own facilities and spending millions, as it is now, on facilities, on purchasing land, developing pavilions and changing rooms and walking tracks and all that sort of thing, is almost gone. There are a small number of clubs which have the financial wherewithal to do that, but in most cases clubs do not have that facility. The answer is "Yes" and I know some work is going on with the development of municipal facilities. In his past few reports the ard stiúrthóir has talked about the development of municipal facilities. That is a key feature going forward for the GAA in urban clubs.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming in today. Like most of the other speakers I am passionate about sport and absolutely passionate about the GAA. I love it and I could not put a price on what it has given me and my family. The importance of the club and the importance of the community is absolutely everything. People often measure success by the number of titles won and say a certain team won X number of senior or junior titles. That to me is not success. Success to me is the level of participation there is at all levels in a club, be that be on the playing pitch, the executive, the administration side of things or the coaching side of things. That is success to me. The GAA as an organisation and Ireland as a country needs to make sure we are promoting participation every bit as much as success. The Government needs to make sure that funding is made available to make sure that the infrastructure is there to increase participation in sport, particularly among females, which is something I am very passionate about. I think there was €270 million in the last round of the sports capital grant, and the new round is opening shortly.

I have a couple of quick questions. My first is in relation to rural clubs. The GAA has made some decisions that have really hampered rural clubs in terms of policy. I understand the logic around it, but it has really hurt rural clubs. The first one is that someone can only play up to four years on a team. I will give an example. When I was a young lad, I was playing minor at 11 years of age and I was playing under-21 at 13 years of age, not because I was great but because my club needed the numbers. Whereas now a person can only go down four years. That is fine for big city and urban clubs. However, in a small rural club like mine that caters to a population of 400 people, man, woman and child, it gets very difficult. This needs to be looked at carefully in terms of the participation piece.

When it comes to adult teams, people now have to be over 17 years of age to play. However, someone playing camogie can be an under-16 in their last year and play on the adult team. It really helps teams but the men's teams cannot do this. That is a huge problem. They are just two issues in terms of the GAA that I would ask Mr. Hurl to take back and have a look at, in terms of helping to support rural clubs.

The situational report that has been done is really impressive and well done on the fantastic work. Roughly how many rural clubs does Mr. Hurl think are at risk of becoming non-viable if current trends continue in the next ten or 20 years?

We would suggest that 78% of GAA clubs are in the smallest settlements around the country, That is not exactly answering the Deputy's question but if the numbers of people living in those smallest settlements all around the country continue to decline, that is where the vast majority of our clubs are.

Are we talking hundreds?

Potentially.

Thousands?

No, not thousands.

Hundreds of clubs potentially could be extinct if current trends continue. Is that correct?

It is back to what Deputy Wall said about how some clubs may want to amalgamate. At the moment, we have 1,611 GAA clubs. If we add ladies Gaelic football and camogie that number goes up to almost 2,400. The good news is that in the recent past, we have not lost many clubs. However, the bad news is that we have not formed too many new clubs in areas of growth, which is something that we need to look at.

Is population decline now a bigger threat to the GAA than other sports? For rural clubs, in terms of competition with other sports, which would be a bigger threat?

As I said here at the outset, we are here to represent the GAA but it is not only the GAA that is at risk. If we look at rugby, soccer and every other sport, the demographic decline is obviously having an impact on not only sport but on churches and schools and every other organisation

Those other sports would not have the same number of clubs though as the GAA. To be very clear, my question is about the GAA. Does the GAA see rural population decline as a bigger threat to it than actual participation in other sports such as rugby or soccer?

I know some of the members are from urban centres and others are from rural areas. Rural clubs have a resilience like no other.

I know.

Deputy Cleere is from one of those great clubs. They will find a way to survive and thrive and develop facilities and keep their communities strong. Maybe I have not answered the question properly but-----

No, that is fine. This is my last question as I am very conscious of time. Clusters were mentioned earlier. I know the rural planning housing guidelines are coming out shortly, which is fantastic. I really like the idea - especially in rural areas - of clusters, be it a settlement of six, eight or ten. That could be transformative in terms of what it could do for not just GAA, but rural towns and villages in general. Should the GAA be lobbying the Government about housing and rural development as aggressively and as brilliantly as it does in terms of funding for sports? It does a brilliant job lobbying on the sports side.

We are, yes.

I thank the GAA for compiling this extremely important report. It is important that it mentions rural planning. The rural planning guidelines are coming out shortly and I would hope that we as Deputies and Senators do not have to accept the rural planning guidelines as a fait accompli. Coming from rural Donegal I would like to think they will want to have an input into those. I realise the guidelines which are there at the moment are preventing people from building in rural areas. The GAA talks about clusters. I am a big person into the one-off houses because we would not have the problem that we have in rural Ireland if it were not for planning. It is very easy for planners to say that people have to go into the town and pay €50,000, €60,000 or €70,000 for a site, whereas they have their own site free gratis and that is a big start. When these guidelines come out we will be looking at them very closely. The more people we have in rural areas, the more participants we will have in the GAA. In the week after Comórtas Peile na Gaeltachta it would be remiss of me not to mention its important role. It brings together clubs from all over the country.

They were from Waterford up to west Donegal, through Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Galway and Meath. It was excellent. The Minister has just left. It is his Department and his predecessors have always provided substantial funds for those clubs. It was evident from the facilities in Kilcar. I must also remember to thank TG4 which televised most of those games. It is a far cry from what we will experience this week when only those who physically go to matches will have the opportunity. It is wrong. That may be critical of RTÉ, TG4, GAAGO and all those which could provide those facilities. There is a premium to get into Ballybofey next week to the newly developed pitch.

The GAA is not just about football. It is about our language and culture and all the sub-committees play an important role in all that. I will have to cut it off there. Social infrastructure is all important. We represent the witnesses. We are their eyes and ears in here. They provided us with the material and it is up to us now to make a case on their behalf. Well done to them on the production of the report.

I dtús báire, déanaim comhghairdeas le Gaoth Dobhair ar an mbua i gComórtas Peile na Gaeltachta. It is important to say the GAA has come a long way. Our facilities are second to none. The community cohesion, unity and all the things the GAA provides should be celebrated. We are here because we see a threat to the association because of demographic changes. We want to make the great organisation we have currently even greater and, with the committee's help, we can do so.

I thank the witnesses for the report. It is incredibly important. When I read it, it struck me that it is something of a canary in a coal mine. As the report says, no one shouted stop.

As others have, I place on record my thanks to the people who volunteer week in and week out. One of the issues that was identified is volunteer burnout. I see that in my area. I am - no one would guess by the accent - a Dublin TD, but I represent quite a rural constituency in north County Dublin. I see it in my area with volunteers and that is in an area where the GAA is growing and the population is growing. The volunteers are burned out. Will the witnesses speak a little about what that is like when population decline is added in? We do not have population decline in the place I represent but where there is population decline, does the GAA find it affects the volunteers to a greater extent? I see it in an area where there is growth. I can only imagine what it is like where there is depopulation. Perhaps the witnesses would talk a little about that and about the practical impact of the depopulation and volunteer burnout.

I drove through Naul last Saturday morning and saw a game going on and the volunteers the Deputy spoke about. It is not only in the GAA; in every other organisation and sport there is volunteer burnout and that is being impacted by demographics because there is a finite number of people. When they stop volunteering or get burned out, that has a huge impact on the club, which is not helped by the numbers on teams falling. It is a huge problem and the GAA is cognisant of it. We have a committee in place, chaired by one of our committee members, Colm Cummins. He is looking at that very issue. The Deputy is spot on. It is a huge problem and we will have to address it in a meaningful way going forward.

The conclusion of the report says the GAA wants to ensure demographic change becomes a catalyst for growth, rather than a source of strain. That is exactly what is needed. The GAA talks about partnerships with local authorities. That is important. It has more than a few willing partners in this committee and in the broader Oireachtas.

The need to link with community organisations was also mentioned. I was struck during Storm Éowyn that in some areas the community centre was found not to be fit for purpose when people needed a hub to go to and in many places it was the GAA club because that is where people go. On turning it around to a catalyst for growth, will the witnesses give us some idea of what that looks like, what the GAA is doing and how we can work with the GAA to make sure that strategy is effective?

Our report highlights the various actions we wish to undertake. There are the internal actions, which the GAA can do itself, but the greater structural problems need to be addressed by the Government and local authorities. I welcome the all-island local government joint pledge that has been signed recently. We have met the County and City Management Association, CCMA. We are currently meeting various local authorities. We are in the privileged position of being here at the committee's invitation and being able to speak to the committee. It is something the GAA has not engaged in a lot, but there is now a focus on change as a result of the demographics report. We have been in front of the housing committee, we have talked to the Department of sports, we have been before the infrastructure committee and now we are here before the committee on rural affairs. We are delighted.

We are delighted to have you and thank you for your work.

We think this will be catalytic and transformative. It is important to say that everywhere we go we get a great welcome but it is now about joining the dots and getting all the Departments. For the Deputy's information, the last time we were with the committee on infrastructure, a decision was made to get the secretariats of all the committees to meet to form a joint policy on the report, not only for the GAA, but for sport and everything else. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.

It does. I thank Mr. Hurl.

I thank the witnesses for coming. I welcome the report. I see in my community a microcosm of what is happening. I have four boys and they all played GAA and rugby. The four of them live in Australia and Canada now and probably will for good. I live in a town of 3,000 people. It is the second largest town in Cavan and at times we could not fill a team. We were not attracting youth for some reason and we tried a lot. There is a parish up the road of 500 people whose girls team won the all-Ireland intermediate final this year.

Going back to the rugby club up the road, which my sons also played in, the demographic there is really different. It would be brilliant if we could attract some of those players to play GAA as well, but that is not happening and it has not been happening rurally as far as I can see. It may be happening incrementally. What is the GAA doing to promote more inclusion of people who are new to the country and people from different backgrounds or cultures where the GAA was never a thing? Is it doing much in that space?

"Yes" is the short answer to that. When Irish people go abroad, very often the first thing they do is find a GAA club, which might be a source of employment or just of social engagement and so on. Therefore, people who come to Ireland are often looking for what they know as well and they do not know about Gaelic games because they are not familiar to them in their culture and language overseas. Therefore, one of the things we are putting a huge emphasis on is introducing people to Gaelic games through primary schools.

We have a presence on the island whereby almost 80% of all primary schools on the entire island of Ireland get Gaelic games coaching on a daily or weekly basis through our structures, which are part funded by Sport Ireland and the Department of sport. We see this as a huge opportunity to introduce kids who do not know about Gaelic games to the programmes. Alongside this we have specific programmes for teachers on Gaelic Time and movement breaks, and helping them to use Gaelic games in a cross-curricular way. Primary schools are a huge element of this.

This is not to neglect or forget about clubs. We encourage all of our clubs to reach out to their communities to ensure we access the full breadth of people. One of the challenges we have in some urban areas is not a shortage of people but access. This is not something that is just a GAA problem but is across multiple sports and organisations. We need to look anew at how these things happen. It is not in any way a shortage or a lack of effort on behalf of volunteers. This is a longer term issue that needs to be solved. Many of us grew up with Gaelic games and we know about them because of our cultural involvement and family history but if someone is new to a community they may not have that. The GAA is an inclusive organisation and the door is open to anyone who wants to come and play.

How is the GAA reaching out to them? Is it through the schools?

Yes, schools are one of the biggest areas. We also have dedicated inclusion programmes through our community and well-being department. These are very successful and important throughout the country.

When the Irish went to America, Australia, London and everywhere else, we got off the plane and went to the local GAA club. It took those who went to America a generation or two to start playing basketball, ice hockey and all of these other sports. We think it will come and evolve naturally, but we are working very hard on it as well.

I thank both witnesses for being here. I really appreciate it. I also very much appreciate their work and the work of all of the members of the GAA, and all its volunteers and staff. It is a shining light and has been for many decades. The organisation was founded in Hayes Hotel - no relation - in Thurles. It is something that is very dear to so many of us throughout the country and I thank the witnesses for all of their work on it.

I will come at this from a slightly different perspective in that I am a Dublin city TD based in the heart of south Dublin city. As mentioned in the report, approximately 20% of the GAA population is in the county of Dublin. Access is a massive issue. I spent St. Patrick's Day in a parade with the Clanna Gael Fontenoy club in Sandymount. I know this club fairly well. One of my colleagues was there with his kids. Kevins GAA club in Dublin 8 really struggles with pitches; one of my friends is very involved there. One of the headline journalists here, who shall remain nameless, is the chairman of the Ranelagh Gaels club. There is also Portobello, which plays at Cathal Brugha Barracks just down the road. South Dublin is not known as being this heartland of GAA but there is huge interest.

What the report sets out so well is the stress on these clubs when they do not have the facilities or the resources to service the huge demand they have. Some of this is because of eastern migration. I am not originally from Dublin and a lot of my constituents are the same; I was born in Limerick but I represent this Dublin area. My question is on engagement with the Government and local authorities on building facilities and providing resources. In Dublin, 53% of pitches are owned by the local authorities, according to the report. There is also the question of facilities being flood-lit, multimodal and all-weather. This is a huge issue in my area and it comes up all the time at the doors in my constituency. I would love to hear whether the GAA is getting buy-in or engagement from local authorities and the Government on providing these facilities in urban settings.

Deputy Hayes mentioned the figures. There are about 415 pitches in Dublin, 70% of which are not owned or controlled by clubs. As he said, 53% are with the local authority and the rest are with educational institutions. There is a challenge with the provision of playing facilities across all sports in urban Ireland. It is not a GAA-specific solution. The cost to clubs of being able to purchase these facilities is unviable. Cuala paid €2 million for 6 acres. A full-sized GAA pitch is 3.3 acres and Cuala paid €2 million for 6 acres. We have had multiple examples of this from various clubs all around. This is only for the purchase of the land; it is not to develop it and have it ready for playing. It is a significant multi-year investment. There were earlier questions about volunteer burn-out. It is a huge burden and onus on a volunteer club to fund the repayment and development of all of this. We are very concerned about how viable this is as a stand-alone entity.

We spoke earlier about municipal and community facilities, which are huge part of the solution in urban Ireland and equally looking at the dual use of facilities, for example, facilities in schools being made available outside of school time to community groups. At the moment, that is very often at the behest of the individual school board of management, which may or may not decide to allow it. Last week, we spoke to the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue, about this being an issue. There is an opportunity through the community sport fund to target specific urban areas for strategic sport and recreation facilities on a multisport basis. As Deputy Hayes mentioned, there are some things we can do. We can improve existing pitches so we can get a bit more time out of them per week, but in reality all sports want their pitches from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. Monday to Friday and most of Saturday and Sunday. Having it available at 10 a.m. on Monday is not much use to many people. Artificial grass pitches provide great opportunities, especially for younger players. They provide capacity that is not there. With the weather we had over the winter and into spring in Dublin, a large number of games were not played in all of our sports. The availability of artificial grass pitches would play a huge part in this but it does not come cheap. There is a lot of work to be done there.

One of the challenges, to be fair to local authorities, is that there are limited statutory guidelines on providing sporting and recreation facilities in the planning process. One of the things we have been doing over the past 15 months is working with the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR. This has led to Sport Ireland and a range of sporting governing bodies engaging on seeing whether we can develop guidance for local authorities on how many sporting facilities we need. In the UK, Sport England has a facilities calculator, which allows it to input demographic and sport participation data to estimate the facility requirement for a given population. The OPR, Sport Ireland and the various governing bodies have built a similar system. It is not ready to go yet but it will be very important. It will mean that local authorities will be able to engage with Sport Ireland, as it is now a prescribed body in the planning process. This means that in the development of additional housing and growth areas, we will know the requirement for sport and recreation facilities. The missing link is to designate sport and recreation facilities as essential social infrastructure, which would mean they could then be developed alongside housing and be planned for alongside housing and not later on.

I am very glad to have an opportunity to contribute. I welcome all in the delegation who do great work. We thank them very much for all they do for our youngsters on the playing pitches throughout the country. I have five grandchildren who are being taken around to all of these activities, including hurling and football. Sport is a great outlet for youngsters and if we start them off right, hopefully, they will keep going right. We thank the GAA for this.

I thank the witnesses very much for placing the emphasis on planning. One-off planning in rural areas is something I have been raising since I first went onto Kerry County Council a long time ago, and since I have come up here. We are waiting for the new planning guidelines, which hopefully will open up some of the needs we have and which have been highlighted by people in many rural areas who cannot get permission.

There is also a problem that extends to larger towns where, when a new estate is built on one side of the town, it can take a lot of people away from a traditional club and create an imbalance. That has to be dealt with as well. It is happening a lot. I know many traditional clubs in bigger towns are in decline where things have become more lopsided than ever before.

It brings me to a very important thing that is happening this weekend. Kerry supporters are in trouble if they cannot go to the match. We have been told the capacity in Kildare for this match is only 6,000. You would want to be Houdini to get into that and be a very fit and able man. There are thousands of supporters at home in Kerry who are outraged they will not be able to see the match on any screen of any kind. Paywall or otherwise, the match is not to be seen or had. In this day and age it is ridiculous. After all, Kerry won the all-Ireland last year. Maybe we are only average enough at the present but we are not beaten yet and they will have to beat us before they take it off us. There are a lot of people at home who are outraged, including elderly people, people with disabilities and people who just do not have the money to go to Kildare one way or another. Yes, we will be very content to listen to Ambrose O'Donovan and Tim Moynihan on Radio Kerry, and they will give a good account of it, but that is putting us back to the forties when we only had radios. Now we have all types of screens, televisions and everything. I am appealing to the witnesses to take the message from this Oireachtas committee meeting to do something about this before the weekend. Today is only Wednesday and a lot of matches were won in the final minute. We are depending on the witnesses to take a message out of here today to do something about this to help the elderly, disabled and all those people who cannot travel.

I will let Dr. Horgan answer that ecumenical matter. Does Mr. Hurl want to answer it?

No, go ahead.

On the point of taking the message back, yes we will.

What?

We will take the message back.

Please do.

The Deputy makes a really important point about the imbalance of clubs and the movement of people. What we can see in a lot of places is that traditionally strong clubs in a lot of our towns are maybe not as strong as they have been in the past, through success or otherwise. What we can see strongly, however, is the success of GAA clubs almost matches the movement of people from a housing perspective. We have seen it in places like Longford and in Cork city. We suggest there is something similar with the likes of Fossa and Kilcummin on the outskirts of Killarney. We have strongly seen those things. We have to recognise that sometimes there is a life cycle to towns and housing estates. Maybe we start off with families and young people, then the young people grow up and move away and live somewhere else, and it is the parents and subsequently grandparents of kids playing games who then live in those housing estates. We are very conscious of trying to ensure our clubs that are in urban areas are able to maintain their standard and status. A lot of the existing rules and regulations within the GAA have insulated us from some of the demographic changes. One of the points we are making here is that, eventually, the demographic change tidal wave will overtake those as well.

Can I just answer something because there might be an impression that I have something against Fossa and teams like that-----

Not at all.

-----and I certainly do not. We appreciate the skill of the Clifford brothers and many others on the Fossa team and appreciate them very much. It is happening in other towns - I was not thinking or talking about Killarney at all - and it is something that has to be dealt with. There has always been trouble with clubs poaching players from each other or whatever, but we have to help the clubs that are in trouble. Abú to Fossa because we are very proud of the Cliffords and the many players the Fossa team has. Indeed, there are the Ballymacs, Dingle, An Ghaeltacht and all of those teams that are keeping Kerry on the map, football-wise. We appreciate them very much. On their own, they are doing more for football and hurling than we ever thought possible.

I welcome our guests. RTÉ One news featured Marty Morrissey and the depopulation happening in my county of Kerry in Cahersiveen and throughout the Iveragh Peninsula. It is shocking that it has reached this point, to be honest. In November 2024, immediately before the general election, I had a deputation in to Kerry County Council. It was made up of the three men who featured in that RTÉ report by Marty: Mr. Joe McCrohan of South Kerry Development Partnership and chair of the south Kerry GAA board; Mr. Bryan Sheehan, former Kerry footballer; and Mr. Michael Murphy, demographics officer of the Kerry GAA county board. Subsequently, I called in the Dáil for a task force to be piloted in south Kerry, with strong guidelines and short timelines, and to put in place hand-picked experts to work as efficiently and as quickly as possible. I believe we must identify the causes and put in place solutions. I received a very positive response from the Minister, Deputy Dara Calleary, and the Taoiseach. Subsequently, Dara Calleary met the people I mentioned in Ballinskelligs in Kerry.

There are many factors feeding into this disastrous situation we find ourselves in, including loss of post offices, lack of wastewater treatment facilities, difficulties in obtaining planning permission, the lack of housing for our people and the lack of available, suitable employment. I very much welcome the changes being introduced. It is something I worked on with the Minister, Deputy James Browne. I hope the changes go far enough; that is my biggest fear at this point. I know they will go before Cabinet shortly. If we do not act now, the possible effects could be horrendous, such as more post office closures, school posts being reduced further, business closures and lack of public transport routes, etc. It might be less attractive for new businesses and there might be job losses, ultimately.

It is very difficult to comprehend that clubs in Kerry are struggling to field teams. In the case of minor teams, four, five and six clubs have amalgamated. We pride ourselves on football and Kerry has a tremendous reputation nationally and worldwide in that context. It beggars belief that we are struggling in that area because it is a religion to us. We love our football. Deputy Healy-Rae mentioned the Cliffords. We have many heroes and former heroes.

There are probably more unforeseen negatives as well. Like my colleagues, I believe that planning permission for one-off houses is part of it. It will not be the main solution but it will be part of it.

You need people. You need footfall and communities. We must maximise the pressure on the Government to act now and to deliver. I believe that it will deliver. It is going down the right road in regards to easing planning permission. Obviously, it will not be a free-for-all. In that context, every planning application for a local person, whether it is on their own land or they are buying, should be granted provided there is not a traffic hazard or a percolation issue.

Will we let the witnesses answer?

Yes.

The officials are telling me we need to be out of the room but I am conscious Deputy Roche wishes to contribute and Deputy Guirke wishes to make a short contribution. I will have a word too. We will get through this.

I thank the Deputy and everyone for all their kind comments in relation to the GAA and what we do. Demographics do not happen by accident. The migration of people from rural areas to urban areas did not happen by accident. It happened as a result of policies. We can talk until the cows come home. We can look back or we can look forward, and we are here to look forward. We have presided over all of the demographic changes. We talk a lot and we need actions now. We need outcomes.

In relation to the Deputy's county, we met Kerry GAA yesterday in relation to a pilot project. The areas the Deputy talked about will be addressed. From south Kerry, we had Michael Murphy, who is a brilliant demographics officer, as are all of the other officers in Kerry GAA.

We are planning for further population growth and it is not going to be in rural Ireland. Unless and until we shout "Stop" and Deputies, the Government and local authorities reverse the trends by changing policy, nothing will change. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. We can talk all we like but it is going to take actions, revisions and changes to policies.

The Deputy talked about the policy that is coming in relation to one-off rural housing. That is to be absolutely welcomed. As I said, it will not resolve all of our ills. There will be a raft of other things that need to be done. Those clusters of six, eight, ten or 12 houses are something that we are very strong on.

I thank Mr. Hurl. We are running out of time because there is another committee meeting at 12.30 p.m. I ask Deputy Roche to be brief.

I sympathise with Kerry on the issues it has. You would swear they never won anything. They want to keep winning.

The gentlemen are most welcome and I wish both their counties well in the weekend ahead. Dr. Horgan should not be too hard on Galway if Cork overcome Offaly, our Leinster champions.

The report is a fine publication, and I commend the GAA on it. It is not before time. I applaud those responsible for compiling it. I note the line that this is not a future threat but the living reality. I understand the reason the powers-that-be decided to target this issue now.

I will not go over issues that were mentioned. I concur with the notion that we have been negligent in the way we have dealt with young people who want to have their first home in rural Ireland, regardless of which county it is in. It is fair to say that there is quite a bit of engagement. The Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins, is doing extraordinary work to try to streamline the process and ensure his Department does exactly what Dr. Horgan is saying. Like lunacy, to keep doing the same thing is crazy.

I am always conscious that communities with an active GAA club or an active community are more likely be successful with an application for a sports capital grant that those communities that do not have the human resources.

I thank Deputy Roche.

It is essential that if an application comes from a rural community that has those issues, the Department should be sympathetic to and cognisant of the challenges it faces.

I ask Deputy Guirke to keep it to one sentence.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for letting me in again. I have two quick questions. The Government hired Pat Spillane and a committee a few years ago and commissioned a report on the decline in rural Ireland. What came of that report? Did anything come of it? The funding the Government put into it was farcical. After spending so much time on that report, to provide €1 million to address the decline in rural Ireland was a joke and an insult to the committee given the time and effort it put into the issue. If national government, local government and the GAA do not work together, the same could happen to this report.

Pat Spillane did tremendous work. He was a tremendous advocate for rural island and on demographics, coming as he does from Kerry. However, there was a lot of talk and not enough action. As I said, we all know the problems but it is outcomes that we need to focus on right now.

I call Senator Rabbitte for a final word.

Coming from Galway, I can see that the likes of Salthill and Knocknacarra are working in what I would call a postage stamp in comparison with the facilities that other urban areas have. These areas have a growing population but just do not have the facilities.

To talk about the GAA's policies and where I am from, Portumna, Deputy 'Chap' Cleere hit on the issue. Joe Canning could play senior hurling when he was 15 years of age and, hence, added to our success. Maybe we should look at some of those policies. Joe Canning's nephews today cannot play senior hurling with Portumna because they are not old enough. There is a little bit in all of that.

This report is only as good as how it will be actioned. I want to support Mr. Hurl and Dr. Horgan. They were before the housing committee previously. Everything they said then has been repeated, on message, today. This is about planning, the Office of the Planning Regulator and ensuring there is a municipal working together, that urban and rural get a fair crack of the whip, so people can stay within GAA's own policy and the parish rule.

It is important we had this discussion. I know the witnesses have been before other committees, namely, the committees on housing and sport, respectively. Collectively, the three committees want to finalise a report to support the cause set out in the report. This committee should be open to having communication with the other committees because this issue affects not only this committee but other Departments and committees as well.

I thank Dr. Horgan and Mr. Hurl for coming in today. The clerk to the committee will discuss their report with the other committees and make sure we formulate a report that will support their cause by progressing and addressing the challenges in the future. I thank the witnesses again for their contributions and for providing the briefing material in advance. It is very much appreciated and very important for the deliberations of the committee.