The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with the National Transport Authority, NTA, on all matters under its remit. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from the NTA, Ms Anne Shaw, chief executive officer, Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive officer and director of transport planning and investment, Mr. Bernard Higgins, director of transport technology, and Mr. Jeremy Ryan, director of public transport services. The format of today's meeting is that we will hear the witnesses' opening statement followed by a question and answer session with members of the committee. I ask members to be concise in their questions to allow witnesses the opportunity to participate.

I will read a note on privilege for our witnesses. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with this direction.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make her or her identifiable.

Members will have seven minutes for questions and answers. I again ask that you keep your questions and one question at a time. I invite Ms Shaw to make her opening statement on behalf of the NTA.

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today to discuss the work of the National Transport Authority in its role of planning, investing in and delivering sustainable transport across Ireland.

We have already done the introductions of my colleagues who are joining me today and who I hope will be able to answer all the members' questions. I took up the role of chief executive late last year at a time of strong passenger demand, significant Government investment and a focus on delivery. People want reliable, safe, frequent, accessible and sustainable services with sufficient capacity, clear information and modern fare-paying systems. Our responsibility is to meet that demand with ambition, discipline and a clear focus on delivery that supports the economic, environmental and social well-being of the State.

The NTA is a statutory, non-commercial State body under the aegis of the Department of Transport. We plan, develop and fund sustainable transport nationally, including public transport, walking and cycling. We also regulate commercial bus services, the small public service vehicle sector and vehicle clamping, manage major capital programmes for the Department and act as approving authority for BusConnects, DART+ and MetroLink. Our work is informed by continuous engagement with the public and elected representatives, including approximately 450,000 public contacts each year and almost 6,000 parliamentary questions in 2025. Some 3,000 have come in already this year. That engagement, together with our annual customer satisfaction surveys, gives us a clear view of where our services are working well, where pressures exist and where further improvement is needed.

Connecting Ireland is one of the clearest examples of the impact of targeted investment. Since 2021, the programme has improved rural mobility through new and enhanced public transport services delivered with our transport co-ordination unit partners. In 2025 alone, 36 new or enhanced services were introduced, adding capacity and improving connections to 31 towns and villages, with better access to employment, education, healthcare and social opportunities.

In urban areas, BusConnects is reshaping bus services and supporting growing demand. Seven phases have now been introduced in Dublin, giving passengers access to 15 24-hour services. The key spine routes have improved frequency, simplified alignments and increased capacity. Planning continues for the introduction of new bus network redesigns in counties Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, with the intention to roll out the first phase in Cork during 2027. BusConnects will deliver 230 km of bus priority measures across Dublin, which will support more punctual and reliable services. In addition, 200 km of cycle infrastructure and improved pedestrian facilities will be provided, which will deliver safer environments for the most vulnerable road users. Similar programmes are planned for Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. Construction this year has commenced on key bus corridors in Dublin, including Liffey Valley to the city centre and Ballymun and Finglas to the city centre in Dublin, with procurement of a contractor for a third corridor to commence in the coming months. Challenges are still being faced with judicial reviews on several of the other corridors, but a number of these have now been resolved and we continue to work through the remainder to enable future delivery of these vital corridors.

Major national rail and metro projects are also advancing. MetroLink will provide a high-capacity, high-frequency automated metro corridor from Swords to the south city centre, linking Dublin Airport with Irish Rail, DART, bus and Luas services. It includes 16 stations, 11 of which are underground, and a park-and-ride facility at its terminal in Swords. The granting of the railway order in January 2026 was a major milestone, and work is progressing to obtain approval gate 2 authorisation under the infrastructure guidelines, permitting the seeking of tenders for the main construction contracts.

DART+ is the largest heavy rail investment scheme in the history of the State and will significantly increase capacity and frequency between Dublin city centre and surrounding areas including Drogheda, Dunboyne, Maynooth, Celbridge and Greystones. New train carriages have been delivered and are being tested, with the first 65 battery electric carriages expected to enter service from 2027, subject to completion of that process.

Consultation has also begun on phase 2 of the Cork area commuter rail to help advance new stations, improve others and increase commuter services in Cork. We are also modernising the public transport fleet by centralising bus and coach procurement for all public service obligation, PSO, services, transitioning to zero-emission vehicles for urban services and upgrading depot infrastructure. By the end of 2025, 364 battery electric buses will be operating across the TFI network, with further expansion planned and depot electrification works under way. While there have been delays in delivering charging infrastructure at depot sites due to procurement and planning issues, all electric buses purchased by the NTA that are not yet in operation are expected to enter service in Dublin in quarter 3 of this year and Galway by the end of quarter 1 of 2027.

Accessibility is also central to building a transport system for all. All buses and coaches on TFI services are now wheelchair accessible, supported by continued investment in low-floor vehicles, separate wheelchair and buggy spaces and improved passenger information. We also continue to support Iarnród Éireann in making stations more accessible, with €11.3 million invested in 2025 and a further €10.3 million allocated in 2026. The TFI independent travel support service assists passengers with additional needs to use public transport independently and confidently, ensuring the public transport system is inclusive. In 2025, Dublin Bus delivered 1,785 assists and Bus Éireann delivered 1,684 across Galway, Cork, Limerick and Waterford and newly expanded services in Drogheda and Dundalk, with pilots also under way on two of the TFI Local Link services.

Active travel is another major area of delivery. In 2025, almost €300 million was allocated to local authorities for walking and cycling infrastructure. More than 1,000 km of infrastructure has been delivered since 2021, including safer routes to school, improved footpaths and new cycling facilities. We are also improving bus stop infrastructure through BusConnects, Connecting Ireland and the active travel investment programme, and the bus stop enhancement programme will allocate €500,000 annually to each local authority to upgrade their bus stops to minimum standards.

Investment in technology is improving the passenger experience. Following a successful pilot in Cavan, contactless payment for single journeys is being rolled out across TFI Local Link services and is due to be available nationwide by the end of this year. The next generation ticketing project is also progressing on schedule and within budget. It will replace the existing Leap card infrastructure with a contactless payment system across rail, Luas and bus services. The programme includes upgrades to approximately 240 railway gates, around 1,000 station validators and more than 2,800 on-bus validators in the greater Dublin area. New validators will begin appearing next year, with contactless payments available from 2028, while Leap cards, free travel passes and discounted fare products will continue to be supported.

We are also modernising on-board bus technology through the introduction of a single advanced automatic vehicle location system. The system is scheduled to go live in Waterford city in July and is planned for broader roll-out across the PSO bus operations during 2026 and 2027. Together with improvements in operational procedures, this technology will improve the accuracy and reliability of passenger information and tackle the phenomenon of ghost buses.

The impact of these programmes is clear in passenger numbers. In 2025, passenger journeys reached over 363 million, almost 20 million more than the previous year, with growth continuing in 2026. Dublin Bus carried 164 million passengers, Bus Éireann 53.6 million and Go-Ahead Ireland 26 million, while both Iarnród Éireann and Luas each carried more than 55 million passengers. At the local and regional level, TFI Local Link recorded almost 7 million journeys and town bus services carried 1.2 million passengers. Overall, more than 90% of passengers reported satisfaction with their most recent journey and more than eight in ten report a positive overall experience.

This success also highlights the constraints we face. Demand is exceeding supply in many areas, particularly at peak times, and there is strong demand for further expansion through programmes such as Connecting Ireland and BusConnects. Our ability to respond is limited by driver and mechanic availability, fleet supply, depot capacity and the time required to plan and deliver major infrastructure. Exchequer funding for PSO services in 2026 was at the highest levels it has ever been. However, with increasing costs due to inflationary and congestion impacts, we have not been able to add any new services during 2026. We are, however, working very closely with the Department of Transport to assess funding alongside fare revenues, which will maintain existing services, introduce new phases of Bus Connects in Dublin and Cork and increase capacity on routes where there is high demand.

The overall direction remains positive. Passenger demand is strong with indications of increased passenger numbers in 2026. Investment is delivering results and the benefits of improved services are clear. The NTA remains committed to delivering high-quality public transport services for everybody and to working with our partners, and remains focused on building a more connected, accessible and sustainable transport system for communities across Ireland. I thank members and we look forward to addressing any questions they may have.

I thank Ms Shaw for her opening statement. There is lots to discuss in terms of passenger growth, investment, accessibility, next generation ticketing and future projects.

Before I go to Deputy Daly, I will ask a question. There is a lot of surprise that there is no mention of Irish Rail's traffic management system in Ms Shaw's opening statement. I am sure she heard the evidence of Irish Rail a number of weeks ago and about the impairment of more than €50 million. Is there any reason Ms Shaw did not include any mention of that in her opening statement?

There is no reason. The instruction we had for today related to all things general around the NTA. We are prepared to answer questions on that today, so we were expecting that.

I welcome the witnesses. I hope Ms Shaw is settling in to her new role at this stage. Earlier, she stated, "In 2025 alone, 36 new or enhanced services were introduced." She also stated that there were no new services for 2026 because of budgetary constraints. Is it a source of frustration that the NTA was not able to introduce any new services? If it had the resources from Government, what new services would have been introduced? Would it be DART+ South West or new town bus services, which seem to have been stalled? What would the NTA have progressed?

We have to manage within the financial envelope available to us. We had intended to introduce new services this year. That was in the planning last year. It is frustrating not to be able to deliver them. I would agree, however-----

Which ones would have been the NTA's priority?

The ones due to be done were new services in Cork, the first phase of BusConnects down there in terms of network redesign. Mr. Ryan may want to comment on other additional services.

We had hoped to launch the next phase of network redesign in Dublin, phase 8, and to launch the first phase of network redesign in Cork and a series of Connecting Ireland routes as well in rural areas.

Like where?

They are scattered around the country. Generally, we do about 30 or 40 a year. We would have been looking to do something like that.

Are there any in particular?

None in particular. There is a programme, but they are not in priority order. It depends on funding and the readiness of the TCU team to tender and procure and for the operator to get the services on the road. There is no particular order, but there was a programme for 2026 for Connecting Ireland.

New services had to be shelved because of budget constraints.

They did. On town services, we launched a new town service in Mullingar in February and we are launching a new town service in Ennis in September. They were committed in 2025 so we were able to proceed with them in 2026.

The bus stop programme has been described as quite cumbersome. Is there any way of improving delivery when the NTA gives money to councils? It has to be approved through the councils and then the funding comes from the NTA. Is that system satisfactory? Many people were waiting in the rain over the winter because they were at bus stops that did not have shelters.

Each local authority knows its area best. Approvals have to go through in their own organisations internally. Planning considerations might also need to be taken into account. They are best placed to deliver those bus stops and prioritise them. The funding provided by the NTA will assist them in doing that.

On additional services, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, was here last week. He indicated that negotiations are going on in the context, perhaps, of introducing new services in 2026. As we are now in the second half of the year, does Ms Shaw think that new services will be introduced, or is the funding just not available?

The funding is one element. We also have to work with each of the bus operators to mobilise new drivers and any new buses they might need in order to provide those services.

Does Ms Shaw anticipate new services will be introduced in the second half of this year?

No.

If there are negotiations, they are not going to get very far.

The negotiations relate to what will happen in 2027 and what we can mobilise early next year. That is working with each of the operators to assess additional drivers they might need as well as other buses in the fleet and any wider management and maintenance of those vehicles.

On ticketing services, I was in Cork Airport last Friday morning. Tourists were coming in from Italy and around Europe. They did not have Leap cards and could not access them. It is very frustrating all round. Ms Shaw comes from the west midlands. She has been able to use her debit card in London for years. Has that been the case in the west midlands for long?

In the west midlands, you cannot do multimodal with a debit card. You still have to rely on an equivalent to the Leap card if you want to make multimodal journeys. Unlike London, the rest of the UK is not yet in that space.

How long does Ms Shaw think it will be before we will be able to do that here?

In the next-generation ticketing programme, there will be, as I mentioned earlier, the roll-out of the ability to have account-based ticketing during 2028 in the greater Dublin area. The intention, because all of the software will have been produced, is then, subject to funding within the capital programme, to launch post 2028 in Cork. We are working through the timeline and the programme. To roll it out across the rest of the country is the intention.

When the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, was here last week, he stated that the first he heard of the writedown of the millions of euro was when he read it in the newspaper. Does Ms Shaw think the NTA had sufficient oversight as the problems were unfolding? Clearly, the Minister of State did not seem to know about the difficulties. What improvements will the NTA make to make sure that there is oversight?

As the approving authority, we have been working closely with Irish Rail since the beginning of the project. We have been receiving updates on the project and reporting through to the major project governance oversight group, MPGOG, within the Department of Transport. In terms of the specifics of the writedown, we were only told within a matter of days of that happening. That was a matter for the Irish Rail board and the CIÉ board in terms of managing their accounts.

Thank you.

Does Ms Shaw have confidence------

Sorry, I call Senator Cosgrove.

Just a final question. Does Ms Shaw have confidence in the company delivering that project in other any other projects it is undertaking?

In terms of confidence in Indra, we are working with Irish Rail on where we are with the traffic management system for the rail network. There is very good collaboration with Indra working on the next-generation ticketing project on which I am sure we will be asked more detailed questions as we go through this session.

I welcome the witnesses. I thank them for the opportunity to ask them questions. I thank Ms Shaw for her opening address.

I want to ask about having a disabled representative on the NTA board. It has emerged that there has been no disabled representative on the board since 2020. Why is that? When Shane Ross was Minister, there was a commitment that there would be a representative on each of the boards relating to Bus Éireann and Irish Rail. Why is there none on the NTA?

We have a disability committee that works closely with the NTA. It is made up of a number of different interests around different kinds of disabilities. It reports to the board and regularly meets board members.

Would it be a good idea to have a specific person on the board? It was promised.

It is always responsible to have as many interests represented on the board as possible. We have been going through some recruitment as has the Department of Transport to try to ensure we have that diversity of knowledge and experience on the NTA board. We still work closely with a good number of representatives on that disability committee.

Disability has come up from a safety point of view as well. I hope we will get representatives from disabled groups in here and perhaps talking to the NTA the lack of availability of ramps. We are way behind the rest of Europe when it comes to the availability of ramps. On wheelchair clamps on buses and trains, not only from a safety of view, it is a worry if you are a wheelchair user and you cannot be properly clamped in. What are the efforts to ensure we have accessible and inclusive transport?

Disabled people have free transport, but what is the point in having it, if they cannot use it? First, people cannot access buses and, second, they do not feel safe on a bus or a train.

In terms of the bus fleet replacement strategy, there are new designs on those buses-----

That is the lower floors.

-----that will cater disability access and more space for wheelchairs, prams, etc. It will be the same on the Luas. We are also working with Irish Rail to make trains and stations more accessible as well.

Will there be ramps on all trains as standard, so that it is not a big fuss? It should not be a big deal, and people should not have to ring ahead if they are going to use a train or a bus to make sure that there is ramp on it. Is there a commitment towards that from the NTA?

We are definitely working with Irish Rail on how we can make rail services more accessible. That is why we are giving more funding to help them do those things in the stations as well. We are also dealing with some very old infrastructure as part of the station designs, so that retrofitting is what we can do.

Can that be done with the existing buses?

There is the rolling replacement of the fleets as well. Does Mr. Creegan want to add any more to that?

We do a number of things in the bus and coach area to try to improve accessibility and particularly wheelchair accessibility. A number of years ago, we moved away from the high-floor coaches where people used a lift rather than a ramp. We had to get a special vehicle designed that would use a wheelchair ramp. We purchased 140 of those, and they are deployed around the country.

Which is nothing in the grand scheme of things and the number of buses that are available.

It is quite a percentage in terms of the out-of-city services. On the city services, we have done things like enlarge the wheelchair and buggy spaces to make sure that the space for the buggy does not occupy the wheelchair space.

If a person has a motorised wheelchair and they cannot get on, there is no point in having that.

They can get on. We designed them to accommodate all bar the very largest wheelchairs, which perhaps we cannot accommodate. In general, we can accommodate virtually all types of wheelchairs. In terms of the ramps, on the new buses we order, we require that there is a second manual ramp installed at the centre door in case the motorised ramp at the front door is out of order which, as the Senator probably knows, it sometimes is.

There are a lot of measures that have been implemented, but we are not complacent. We are not saying that we are done. There is more to do.

That is where maybe having a disabled person on the board, rather in a feeder group, would be important as a representative voice.

It is the Minister for Transport that appoints the people to our board. We do not self-appoint them.

I can raise it with him. That is perfect. I have been looking for an early morning commuter train. I have met with Irish Rail and there has been a lot of positive engagement with Mary Considine around this, but during the last meeting I had with her, she said that while the PSO funding has not facilitated the change, such a service will be introduced at the earliest opportunity subject to NTA approval. I then asked the Minister of Transport, and he said that it was a timetabling matter for Irish Rail, but Irish Rail says it is the NTA. We have met with Irish Rail. Research studies have been done around this, and the trains are available. Can the NTA give a commitment? This would be a very easy win new service. If timetabling is not a problem, what extra resources are needed to provide it?

We have to consider all of the requests that we get nationally in terms of new services or increasing the capacity on existing services or high frequency routes as well. The PSO funding that we have constrains us in terms of being able to do everything that we would like to do, so we have to manage it within that process. Does Mr. Ryan want to-----

How are services prioritised? This is a related matter. Ms Shaw talks about new services. As a side note, I spoke to her about this issue, and she emailed me back. She said that the NTA has to tweak services for Local Link. Local groups in the Calry and Newtownmanor area, which is on the Sligo-Leitrim border, came together and produced a business plan. They did everything they were supposed to do. They tweaked a route, and the new route will take in an extra 3,000 passengers, but they do not know what they have to do to make sure they are listened to. Has the NTA had a chance to look at their submission? What do communities have to do to get a new service, when it is just a matter of tweaking? They did exactly what Ms Shaw said. They looked at loads of options, but they tweaked an existing service that will include an additional 3,000 people. It is just one road.

We will consider all suggestions that come in. I mentioned the number of requests we receive and the contacts that we have with communities and members of the public, as well as representatives.

How do groups get on the priority list?

Just to add, we have seen the proposal, and we commented back to the Senator on it.

Is that in relation to the train or the bus?

It is in relation to the train. Having looked at the business case, we see there are merits in it. There are considerations around driver availability and also conflicting train paths that we would need to look at.

It has been proved that is none.

My advice is that there potentially is, and it needs further review.

I welcome Ms Shaw and the team. I congratulate her on her appointment. I have been campaigning alongside Councillor Neil Cruise, Councillor Donna Sheridan, Jimmy Mulroy and the Straide community about the reinstatement of a bus stop. Bus Éireann discontinued its service from Ballina to Galway, and Citylink took over the public service obligation but do not stop at Straide bus stop. I understand that after a lot of campaigning, an application has been made by Citylink to the NTA in relation to stopping at the Straide bus stop. I would like an update on where it is at. Does the NTA support the reinstatement of the bus stopping at Straide?

When the 52 service was withdrawn by Bus Éireann Expressway in May, Citylink added three additional services to its commercial service. That is not a PSO service, so we have no contract with Citylink in relation to that service. It provides that timetable and the stopping pattern that it wishes to, subject to approval by the NTA in terms of potential competition with PSO services. In relation to any application for changes to a bus licence, that is commercially confidential. We do not share that information with others. I believe that there is an application in, but I cannot say any more than that at this point.

In general, does the NTA support the reinstatement of connectivity for a village that is currently-----

Clearly, we are always going to support connectivity but, as I said, it is not something that we can make happen.

The decision lies with the NTA to make.

The decision-----

The NTA can make it happen.

-----in relation to any commercial licence application or amendment to a licence lies with the NTA bus regulation team.

Can the NTA make it happen, and does it support the reinstatement of it? I am not specifically referring to this one, but speaking generally.

It is a matter for the bus regulation team to review the licence application and to decide whether there are any reasons why it would not-----

Does Mr. Ryan know when that decision will be made?

No, I do not.

What would be an acceptable timeline?

The team processes applications as quickly as it can. There are a number of applications in at any one time.

This bus route is-----

It does not necessarily prioritise one application over another.

As we speak, there will be a bus going by Straide and the village is currently disconnected. There are bus stops that were invested in on either side of the road, and the bus is not stopping. It sounds like the easiest thing in the world to do and do quickly. It would reconnect people who are vulnerable road users, people who have medical appointments, jobs and who going to college.

I am not going to argue with the Senator on that. I agree with him, but, as I said, if there is a licence application in, and I do not even know if there is as it is a matter for the bus regulation team to process licences and to adjudicate on them in due course, it will be dealt with, and a decision will be made by the bus regulation team at the right time.

I have engaged with the consultation team in Buswells on numerous occasions and I welcome that. It is positive to relay different challenges that we all face in our different areas. One is the connectivity to Knock airport for north Mayo.

There has been a proposal put forward for a new bus link that would begin in Charlestown, connect into Knock airport and go on to Kiltimagh and Castlebar. The NTA introducing this link would unlock connectivity for the whole county and for residents in all those areas. However, what is being proposed to us is that it would be synchronised with the service coming from north Mayo, meaning all passengers would connect in with Ireland West Airport Knock, which is a key piece of transport infrastructure.

Do the witnesses have an update on the status of that proposal? We got the updated proposal, but do the witnesses have an update on when it could be operational?

The first priority for the rural transport programme is to roll out what is in the Connecting Ireland programme. Once that programme is complete - we hope it will be complete in two years' time, subject to funding next year - we will review all counties throughout Ireland to see where gaps remain, and we will look at whether additional services or routes need to be provided.

Is Mr. Ryan familiar with the proposal I am on about?

No, I am not familiar with this particular proposal.

It was presented by the witnesses' colleagues at the most recent presentation at Buswells Hotel. It was a very positive proposal. Mr. Ryan referred to two years but they were saying this could be operational by the end of this year.

That is always going to be subject to funding, as-----

Mr. Ryan does not even know about it, never mind asking for it to be funded.

Sorry, as Ms Shaw pointed out, we do not have any funding for additional services this year.

Has the NTA asked?

Of course, we have asked. We asked last year in our budget submission.

This was proposed this year.

We can take the specific example and the one the Senator just mentioned previously and come back to him on those.

I spoke to the witnesses' team and gave them a heads up about the question I would ask on the Straide bus stop. The witnesses have come to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, yet we hear there is no awareness of this. If Ms Shaw will let me finish, I gave a heads-up on this and I was hoping for a positive outcome, but the witnesses are making out they do not even know about it, which is really disappointing. On the second issue, their colleagues presented a very positive proposal and again, the witnesses do not know about it.

The Straide bus stop relates to the Citylink service, is that correct?

That is correct, which the NTA needs to approve, but Mr. Ryan said he was not aware of an application-----

No, I did not say that.

You did.

I said I was not aware whether there was a licence application in.

That is what I said.

Licence applications are commercially confidential.

Mr. Ryan was not aware an application went in, even though it is a public press release.

I am not trying to be difficult here, but there is an expectation, given that I have been engaging with the witnesses' team, that they would be across the brief on it.

I would not be able to tell the Senator about the application anyway. It is commercially confidential----

It is, until a decision is made.

-----until the decision is made, which it has not been.

Exactly.

We can commit to come back to the committee to at least confirm an application has come in. I think we can do that without giving any detail on what that application is about or whom it is from.

On the other connectivity issue the Senator spoke about, there are several things we are trying to do with regard to wider routes we would like to implement. The question was where it would sit with the connectivity to Knock airport. We need to commit to coming back with some information about where that sits within the priorities of the-----

I want a commitment that the ask will be made of the Minister to fund the route, and I want that ask made this year, because if it is not made, we cannot support it.

As we mentioned already, there is no additional funding within 2026 for new routes.

That is not for the NTA to decide. The Minister will decide what to fund. Can the witnesses commit to asking for this to be funded this year?

The NTA might write to the-----

No, not to write. Can the witnesses commit that the Minister will be asked to fund it this year?

The Senator is way over time.

I know that, but what has been going on here is unacceptable, to be honest.

We will work with the Department of Transport to review the ask the Senator has made.

Not work with. Will the NTA ask for it to be funded? Will the witnesses ask the Minister for it to be funded?

We can ask for anything to be funded-----

Exactly. That is what I am asking. Will the NTA ask for that? The witnesses have not answered the question yet.

We can ask those questions-----

Ms Shaw will ask the question.

We can ask those questions but whether we get a positive response-----

It is not for the NTA to decide whether it is positive or not; the Minister will decide.

Thank you, Senator Duffy.

Ms Shaw will ask.

It will be alongside all the other asks we have.

So Ms Shaw will ask this year.

We can ask the question, yes.

Okay, good. That is finally a bit of progress.

I thank the witnesses for being here and for giving us the time to question them on issues not only for our counties but nationwide.

I want to focus on the funding and money side. On the €50 million Irish Rail wasted on technology that did not work, I know the same company - forgive me, I cannot remember the name of the company-----

Indra.

Thank you. That same company is working on other sides of technology. It reminds me of the children's hospital, and BAM not doing what it was supposed to be doing or delaying what it was supposed to be doing, yet it was still given a contract to do something else somewhere else in the country.

Is there a compensation route to get some of that €50 million back, considering a company said it could do something and it did not work? At what point did somebody notice this technology was not going to work? While constantly pumping money into it, at what point did the NTA say it was going to pull the plug and not put any more money into it? Following up on that, what suffered as a result of that €50 million spend? What projects around the country were either delayed or did not get funded because money was being pumped into this technology? For a couple of years, there were reviews done and it was not working. At what point did somebody turned around and say, "Okay, we are not going to fund this any more"?

As the Senator mentioned, the project for the rail traffic management system is a project being delivered by Irish Rail. The NTA is the approving authority and provides oversight of delivery. We have been working over a number of years with Irish Rail regarding some changes to that particular contract. It went through a procurement process and was awarded, and of course, Indra has global expertise in providing traffic management systems in other countries it works with. There have been several changes in controls or rebaselines of that project over a period, particularly with the way in which the software was being developed. Last year, the NTA took a greater oversight role to support Irish Rail with regard to some of those changes. There were new methods introduced last year in terms of breaking down the project into smaller components for different parts of the rail network. We have been working closely with Irish Rail on the performance of the software supplier at that level. At no time have we been requested to change anything in terms of the supplier or anything like that.

As I mentioned at the beginning of the session, we did not find out about the write-down until a couple of days before that went to the Irish Rail board. At that point, that phase of the project was tracking positively. It was only once the software was received that there were a number of issues with how it had been developed and it was not ready for further testing on the network.

With regard to the €50 million in funding that is part of that, some of it has gone to that supplier and some is covering other costs Irish Rail has. The NTA is in the process of reviewing, from the beginning of the process of procurement, the arrangements that have been in place, how it has been managed, etc. That process is ongoing and will not report back until September, which is probably when we will have more information about what we have learned throughout that process and how it has been managed.

Has the NTA looked at what funding options would have been there for other projects that may not have been funded, due to the €50 million allocation?

We will always be looking at where funding could be allocated within the wider programme. The NTA manages a multibillion euro capital programme, so there will be other things it could have funded that might be coming along slightly later. We have not identified what those would be and I do not think it would be right to say that at this point in time.

There will obviously need to be consideration of what we do going forward because the train system still needs to have a new traffic management system.

Sticking with funding, I will move closer to home. I assume the €3 million in funding for the temporary station that is being put into Adare in County Limerick comes from the NTA.

Is it a good investment for the sake of a temporary station for a week? The train is going to go from Adare to Limerick Junction. It is not going to service Limerick city. No one living in Limerick city will be using that train. As it is not going out to Foynes, people from north Kerry or west Limerick will not be using it. It is going to Limerick Junction. Being cynical and looking from the outside, it feels like it is being directed for a week for American tourists to come over to what is going to be a fantastic event in Adare. I have no doubt but that it will bring in a huge amount of tourism and is going to be great for the economy but it is €3 million for a week for people who probably will get off a flight in Dublin, get the train from Heuston Station to Limerick Junction and then on to Adare. This is not going to suit or work for anybody who lives in Limerick or Kerry. It is not going to be for the Irish taxpayers but €3 million of Irish taxpayers' money is going into it for a week.

I hear what the Senator is saying. When the Government signed the contract to host that particular event, commitments were given to ensure that we could enable sustainable transport. That temporary station will provide that temporary capacity for people who are visiting-----

It is sustainable transport for a very small cohort. It is not going to be for anybody who lives in Limerick or Kerry.

It will enable us to make sure that people are moving by rail and no additional traffic on the road network while that event is going on. That will support local connectivity in other ways as part of that. When we have big events like this, the Senator has already mentioned that it is good for the economy, but there will be a return into the Exchequer from other money that is spent in this country while those visitors are here. Regarding value for money, it will help with that return and will probably cover the cost of the provision that is being made.

It probably would have been better value if the station was going to be made permanent rather than temporary. From my understanding, it is something to do with the bridge needing to be raised by a metre. If the planning had gone in - and this seems to be the case in this country all the time - maybe a couple of months before, it could have been a permanent structure. It seems that the cart goes before the horse constantly when it comes to this kind of stuff. I do not know if the planning is down to the NTA. I imagine that Irish Rail had to put that in. Had somebody just looked at it a month or two beforehand and said, "We will do this, but we are going to have to do this first", then maybe we would have a permanent station.

There will be a time constraint. The event is happening in 2027. It needed to give certainty that those facilities could be in place to service that event.

As I have quite a lot of questions, I will try to get through them as quickly as I can. I find that it increasingly difficult to communicate with the NTA. I hate to say this. I am not being insulting in anyway; I am being as honest as best I can. It is becoming more like Uisce Éireann, if possible, in terms of a public representative getting into contact with it. That is very poor form. That is coming from me as a voluntary board member. I have never turned around and sent for expenses to attend a meeting because I was proud to be part of the Local Link service but now there is a disconnect from a board perspective and a public representative perspective.

I will start with the issues of concern. It is more parochial. It is our only opportunity to do so. A tender was put out for a Bantry, Kealkill and Macroom route in west Cork. I might be wrong but a tender was put out maybe seven, eight or nine months ago for Dunmanway, Clonakilty, Grange and Timoleague. Now, we are being told that there is no money available. The witnesses spoke earlier when I was inside in the Dáil. I apologise, but we have a motion in the Dáil, so I am back and forth. They spoke about millions and millions. They are needed where they are going. The witnesses cannot come in here and tell me that they are talking about connecting Ireland when they are talking rail where there is rail already or bettering existing transport services when they are there already. It is about the areas where they are not there, like Caheragh and Drinagh, that have no transport whatsoever. The NTA then puts out tenders. If we put a cart in front of a horse, we know what happens - a horse will jump. It then tells us that there is no money. It is like me telling everyone that I am going to buy a Jaguar and inviting everyone I know to come for a spin in the Jaguar but I cannot afford to buy the Jaguar. Common sense has to apply. Why is there no money for rural services now? Why did the NTA put out a tender for services? Maybe, the witnesses can tell me that is now turned around and there is going to be funding for the Dunmanway, Clonakilty, Grange, Timoleague and Barryroe area. These people are starved of a transport service. Bantry, Kealkill and Macroom are starved of a transport service. The Caheragh and Drinagh people have no transport service. What is the story there?

We are at the behest of annual based funding. We only know each year what funding we are allocated. As part of the budget negotiations each year, we produce what we think need to deliver the things we want to deliver during the follow year, including making preparations like those tenders that the Deputy has raised. Once we know what funding we have got, it is to make sure we are able to move forward with those things. If we waited until we knew what funding we had, it would take us longer to do the tenders as well.

My assumption is that Ms Shaw does not have answer for the questions about those exact routes because it looks like they are not going to happen again. That means that the NTA is going to have to retender again. I do not expect that it can come back after eight or nine months say that it is the same price. Fuel has gone one way and gone the other way. The operators that have already tendered are going to have to tender again if it is going to happen at all. How can we be talking about connecting Ireland here when there is a disconnection? It is the same way with the goddamn rail. From Ardgroom, Sheep's Head, the Beara Peninsula and Mizen Head, we are talking about 130 km or 140 km with no direct connection to a train. Is it happening anywhere in the world? Is it only on a Third World basis? We are treated in that same category. Something has to change. We cannot even dream of calling it Connecting Ireland when there is such a major disconnect in relation to rail from west Cork. We had rail 3 km from where I live in west Cork in Schull in the 1850s. We have no rail within 140 km of where I live now. Something is wrong somewhere. That has to be turned around. The only way we can do that is by connecting buses because there is no point in asking for rail as that would be laughed off the pitch.

I have concerns. This comes back to local knowledge and I could be wrong here. There is a Killarney to Skibbereen route, which is greatly welcome. I am not discrediting everything that goes on because we have a Mizen route and a Beara route. The routes that I raised previously were promised and not delivered on. Regarding Skibbereen to Killarney, I often wonder, is there a need for a major CIÉ bus travelling along a very narrow road? Could that be downsized slightly and include other areas? Instead of starting in Skibbereen, it could start in some place like Drinagh and take in Caheragh, the route as it travels and maybe take in Kealkill and areas that do not have a bus service at the moment. It is going to add another 15 or 20 minutes, but so what? This is rather than reintroducing or reinventing the wheel that does not need to be reinvented. The only way that can happen is through local knowledge.

I have been saying the same thing about Castletownshend. We are begging for a loop there with the service that is already there. That will be bring in a whole load of houses. It is the same thing for Mizen Head. I am talking to myself. I might as well be looking at that clock and talking to it every time I come in here. I am not being disrespectful to the witnesses because I do not know them from Adam, but the board should have a stronger say and local representatives must have a say in what is going on in their own areas. If they do not, I am going to be in the same position in 12 months' time and coming in and the witnesses talking about the budgets that they have, and I am talking about the areas that were promised services that were never delivered. I do not want to be doing that. I want to see delivery and continuous delivery and adding to the great services that are out there by the Local Link. The Local Link is our only surviving service.

Regarding the over-70 drivers, I presume the NTA deals with those drivers. We have been pushing very hard on the over-70 drivers. There were some talks that they could drive an eight-seater or whatever. Is that happening or when is it happening? Imagine at 69 years old and 364 days they can take a child to school in the morning in a bigger bus, but the next morning they cannot when they hit their 70th birthday. They can come back an hour later, however, and take them for a swimming class, which is insanely crazy. Is that changing?

To answer the Deputy's first question, the funding is what is constrained. I think the Deputy was out of the room when Mr. Ryan was talking about the next two years’ worth of routes that we want to add into the Local Link. We have got a list of all the things that we want to do, which will include the ones that the Deputy has just spoken about. It is subject to the funding that we had. While we have had more funding within the PSO budget this year than we had before, we have not had any new funding this year. What we were planning to be able to implement this year, we have not been to do that. We continue to plan for those. Hopefully, subject to funding arriving next year, we will take those. The Deputy is right that we will need to go and refresh those tenders with the operators.

On the over-70s, there are discussions ongoing with the likes of Bus Éireann, the Road Safety Authority, etc., to be able to extend the licensing arrangement around that.

I do not know whether anybody knows the outcome of those discussions.

No, I do not. The other issue the Deputy raised was whether Bus Éireann services could be Local Link-type services. We have already introduced several changes around the country where former Bus Éireann services have become Local Link services. That review is continuing, so there is scope to do that where appropriate.

Will the witnesses link up with the public representatives? Public representatives do not always get what they want, but I would certainly like to put forward proposals for areas that are not served and that could be moved into an area that is already in existence, or for slight changes. I am not talking about ridiculous or mad changes but slight changes that would include communities. We could be talking here about all of Ireland connecting, not disconnecting. That is what I call it: Disconnecting Ireland.

I am genuinely surprised that the NTA failed to refer to the IT train traffic management system, TMS, in its opening statement. I am not sure what message that sends about the NTA's view on the expenditure of at least €50 million. We are talking about a minimum of €50 million and counting. I will get into that a little later.

We all want more services. The NTA tells us it has no funding for more services, yet €50 million and counting has been wasted on a traffic management system. Let us get into that. The NTA received, on Monday, Irish Rail's recommendation to terminate the contract. When will the decision be made and by whom? Does the board of the NTA have to make the decision? Does it have to go to the Minister? How quickly can a decision be made so we can actually draw a line under this debacle?

We had a letter late on Monday from Irish Rail, as the Deputy just mentioned. We wrote back to it yesterday and had conversations with it yesterday in terms of all the information we need in order to make the decision. No supporting evidence came with the letter, so we are in discussions with it about that. The decision will be taken by the NTA board, in consultation with the major projects governance oversight group and the Department of Transport, which obviously has a keen interest in this. We need to work through-----

What is the notice period on the termination of the contract?

We need to work through with Iarnród Éireann the terms under which it is proposing to terminate the contract and how long that would take. It is a bit difficult-----

There have been serious red flags over this project since 2023. I am sure some lawyer has looked at the termination provisions in the contract before now, and that the NTA, as the oversight body, would have the notice period at its disposal.

That is the information that has not yet been supplied to us by Iarnród Éireann-----

The NTA is the oversight body and this debacle has been going on for three years. There have been serious issues with the contract for three years and the NTA has not looked at the legal provisions in the contract.

We know that Iarnród Éireann has had legal advice on how it can manage the contract and under what conditions.

What oversight has the NTA been providing here? Irish Rail has been raising serious red flags since 2023. Ms Shaw mentioned earlier, and correct me if I am wrong, that there had been no recommendation from Irish Rail until this week to terminate this contract. That is not what was presented in the Irish Rail detailed brief. In fairness to Irish Rail, at least it provided a detailed brief on this matter when its representatives appeared before this committee. Ms Shaw did not even mention it, but it says that it recommended termination in mid-2025. Ms Shaw said it did not. She can correct me if I am wrong.

We have had no formal request from Iarnród Éireann to terminate that contract. There have been ongoing discussions. I mentioned a couple of rebaselines of the actual programme over previous years-----

When does Ms Shaw expect a decision to be made on this? When will we stop throwing good money after bad?

Once we have received the evidence pack from Irish Rail that will support the decision its board is recommending, we will work through that over the following couple of months, probably, because there will be quite a lot of detail in it. We also need to understand the implications of any decision on how we move forward with delivering a traffic management system for rail, and really assess all of the risks before we make a decision. However, I take the Deputy's point that this is a matter of public money being spent on something that is not working. We will take that very seriously. We do not want to-----

It was not regarded as serious enough for Ms Shaw to mention it in her opening statement, yet she asked us for more money.

We do not want to delay any decision but we do need to make sure we are also protecting our path forward-----

At the meetings of the oversight body, why has Ms Shaw not tried to draw a line under this before now?

As the oversight-----

Why has she let this go on for so long?

As the oversight body, we have worked with Iarnród Éireann to rebaseline the project and change-----

Many, many times. When does-----

-----at the request of and following discussions with Irish Rail and its software supplier.

This is a complete failure.

We have worked very hard with Irish Rail in the past year-----

How much are we going to spend on signalling over the next three years to try to patch up the Dublin network alone?

Again, that is information we are waiting for from Iarnród Éireann, in terms of what the next steps are just to manage-----

According to my understanding from reading the papers, it is €5.6 million this year and at least the same next year and the year after. We are looking at €20 million committed for three years that would not have had to be spent if the contractor had delivered the off-the-shelf product it was supposed to deliver at the outset.

We are working through those figures with Iarnród Éireann.

So it is €50 million plus another €20 million on patching signalling. That is not going to sort the signalling for the whole country. We have the Cork signalling fiasco as well. This is going to impact the rest of the country. We will also have project management, I assume, to support this signalling debacle, and we still actually need to sort out the whole country. What is the total cost? Has the NTA done any work to ascertain what the total cost of the failure of this project is going to be to the taxpayer?

That is the work we need to do with Iarnród Éireann, to understand what is-----

If it is not €50 million, it will be a lot more.

-----its path for having the traffic management system for the national rail network as well as the intervening proposals that will cover the greater Dublin area.

What responsibility does the NTA take for the failure of this?

As the oversight body, we have worked with Irish Rail on the changes, the change controls and the rebaselining of the project going forward. As the Deputy is probably aware, we provided additional support from autumn last year in terms of working with both Irish Rail and the supplier.

Why did this fiasco not come to the NTA board before 2024? Why were the issues that were being flagged on this, including the repeated milestones being missed and the rebaselining, not brought to the board of the NTA? Where is the governance in this? Ms Shaw is not giving me any confidence that the NTA has managed this project and exercised its governance and oversight role well.

The governance of the project sits with Irish Rail in terms of delivery. It has its own project board and capital programme board. It is also reviewed by the capital programme committee within the NTA, based on the questions or requests that Irish Rail has presented to us in terms of managing the project going forward. I repeat that at no time have we been formally asked by Irish Rail to terminate any contract. We have been working with Irish Rail and the software supplier to-----

That is a little disingenuous when Iarnród Éireann has spoken to the NTA repeatedly about this and has put in writing that it did ask the NTA to terminate it last year. Saying that there is not a letter is an issue. The NTA is supposed to be the oversight body, but it is also its role to support Iarnród Éireann. It appears to me that the NTA has been supporting the contractor on this project.

Regarding next-generation ticketing, have any milestones been missed? I will ask for the paperwork on this. In terms of the relationship with Indra, are we in dispute with it on the traffic management system?

The contract with Indra for the traffic management system sits with Irish Rail, and it needs to manage it if there is any dispute. We have been working with Irish Rail in terms of the requests it has made of us to rebaseline the project, to change the-----

Have any milestones at all been missed on next-generation ticketing?

I will let Mr. Higgins come in on that in a second.

There is not much time. Very briefly. Does Ms Shaw want to add anything else?

No, not really. I have already answered the questions.

Can Mr Higgins tell us of any milestones missed?

No.

None at all.

I thank the witnesses. I want to refer to the evidence Iarnród Éireann gave to the committee. I refer to a July 2024 meeting with the NTA. It is stated that Iarnród Éireann set out its significant confidence concerns about Indra's performance on the project and the continuously at-large nature of successively failing programmes that were seriously detrimental to Iarnród Éireann and the TMS project timeline budget. This discussion also considered an alternative plan B scenario of potentially needing to replace Indra with another TMS contractor that could definitively complete this business-critical TMS project with greater certainty. It is also stated that while the NTA acknowledged Iarnród Éireann's confidence concerns, the alternative TMS contractor plan B scenario was not deemed to be necessary at that point in time.

Why did the NTA not accept the assurances of Iarnród Éireann in July 2024? Why did it accept the assurances of Indra as the contractor? There were so many red flags at that time. We saw the extent to which change orders exploded. The original Indra contract exploded, the Turas contract exploded and the Ricardo contract exploded in terms of change orders, in some cases by more than 200%. There were so many red flags. I can understand commercial reset one but I cannot accept commercial reset two. From the point in time of commercial reset two and the 2024 meeting with Iarnród Éireann until the end of last year, we spent a further €25 million of taxpayers' money. There is a contradiction between Iarnród Éireann's evidence and Ms Shaw's evidence today. Iarnród Éireann is very clear that it put forward a plan B scenario at the July meeting. Is Ms Shaw saying that evidence from Iarnród Éireann is incorrect?

I think I was the person at the July meeting. We are not in conflict. There was a discussion about bringing in another contractor but that is as far as it went. There was no plan developed by Irish Rail. There had not been a formal request to terminate the contract. At the time we were working collaboratively with Irish Rail, as we have been throughout this project, to try to manage what was a problem project. We did consider what the best steps to take were. The Cathaoirleach said we were favouring Indra in some way but we were not favouring any party; we were trying to find the best route to deliver this project, which the rail system absolutely needs. Based on the information we had at that point, we thought then that the right thing to do was to reset it in the way that we, Irish Rail and Indra jointly reset it to see whether we could get the project back on track.

There were so many red flags up until that point in July 2024. Why was there blind loyalty to Indra at that time on the part of the NTA?

It was not blind loyalty at all. It really was trying to balance the needs of the project and the need to get a train control system developed. We were conscious that termination is a big step to take and may result in litigation that may drag on for some time. It may result in blocking procurement processes. All of these things were factors that weighed on us. There have been problems with this project for a number of years. They have not been ignored. Efforts have been made by Irish Rail and us to manage the project through them. We had set ourselves a target that this final CP1 testing would be the litmus test of whether we had a successful product. Obviously, we have got to the point that we do not have one.

Is it fair to say that since 2024 the NTA has had a more direct role in oversight of this project?

Certainly, we were heavily involved in 2024, but in summer 2025 we became more actively involved. We met Indra and Irish Rail every two weeks to try to force a higher level of collaboration. We refocused the project on phase 1 only. We pushed for total clarity and a common understanding between Irish Rail and Indra on what was being built. That intensive engagement, if I can describe it like that, commenced in late summer last year.

For the avoidance of any doubt, Iarnród Éireann expressed no confidence in Indra to deliver this project. The board has since made that decision. To be absolutely clear, does the NTA still have confidence in Indra to deliver the system? I would like a yes-no answer.

I cannot give a yes-no answer because it is more complicated than that. Indra is a very large company with lots of capabilities. It has not delivered on the capabilities of this project. I have confidence that in time it could deliver it but I have no confidence as to when.

Is Iarnród Éireann responsible for the safety of its rail network or is the NTA responsible for that?

It is Irish Rail.

Does the NTA accept, with regard to the decision by Irish Rail to write to the NTA the correspondence it received on Monday, that it does not send that correspondence lightly with regard to the recommendation to cancel? Does it accept that it does not lightly make a recommendation to cancel the contract with Indra?

Absolutely, it does not do that lightly. That is why we will work with it very quickly to help get to a resolution on the decision that needs to be made.

Does Ms Shaw know how much it costs for each week it will take the NTA to make a decision?

There is a cost to it but I do not know whether we know that figure.

It is €100,000 a week. For every week the NTA sits on making a decision to support the Irish Rail network, it is costing Irish taxpayers €100,000. We are tied into €400,000 project costs each and every month. How long will it take the NTA to make a decision?

I think it is really important for us to go back to what I said earlier, which is that in making the decision we need to understand what is-----

I can only assume that Irish Rail has a plan B. I can only assume it has discussed this plan B with the NTA. It is costing taxpayers €100,000 for every week the NTA takes to make a decision on this recommendation. How many weeks is it going to take to make a decision?

There is a resilience plan for managing certain parts of the network where there is more urgency. We need to understand the details behind that. We also need to understand how we get to a full traffic management system for the national rail network. As Mr. Creegan mentioned, in making the decision, we need to make sure we have the safest route to move forward as quickly as possible in getting the traffic management system. We need to work through any litigation or procurement blockage.

I have to say, this whole episode raises significant governance issues. There are significant governance issues and oversight issues in the NTA. I am seriously concerned about upcoming large-scale projects such as MetroLink, BusConnects and DART+.

I thank the witnesses for being here. The opening statement states that Exchequer funding for PSO services is at its highest level but that is not enough to maintain existing services or to increase capacity and introduce new services. It also states that the NTA is working closely with the Department of Transport to assess funding alongside fare revenues. Given everything that is being discussed today, is that a hint that fare increases are on the table?

When we are looking at what budget we have available to us, we have to look at the contribution of fares alongside what funding comes from the Exchequer to deliver the services. It is not just the PSO budget that delivers the services. We need to take all of the funding pot into account when we are planning the services. We are working with the Department of Transport on looking to what we need for 2027 to add in the new services we have planned to do this year as part of this. Of course, we need to take into consideration the fares contribution in that pot.

I might ask the same question again. Within that, are fare increases being considered?

I have to be honest that fare increases are not off the table when we are looking at the whole budget. Whether they will happen sooner, later or at some point in the future remains to be seen.

We are looking at an impairment of approximately €50 million and a writedown of €28 million. As my colleagues have said, this issue has not ended yet and we do not know where it will end up in terms of lost public money. Does the NTA accept that we need public confidence in its oversight and in public spending when we are going to be talking about an increase in any budget for the PSO, fare increases or increased funding for the NTA?

The BusConnects project is being delivered by the NTA. MetroLink, working with TII, is being delivered through this process as well. We have many successful projects where things are being delivered on time and generally within budget. We need to look at the overall governance of the TMS project. The project is being delivered by Irish Rail as a commercial State body.

It has its own governance through its project board and its board. Our job, as the approving authority, was to ensure the procurement was done in the right way, the business case was written in the right way, the value for money test was done and there was a need for the project to go forward. As with many projects in the capital programme, the NTA provides oversight to make sure things are happening and deals with any change requests that come through where they are material to the budget that has been provided.

Going forward, we will work with Irish Rail to see where we can strengthen the governance on the Irish Rail side, as it will still be the responsible organisation for the delivery of the project. We will look at what additional things it might want to consider as part of its governance of that project and how we can continue to support it with oversight. We also have the major programme group with the Department of Transport to make sure the governance and visibility of the project is in place, which it already is. It is just that we will be looking at ways to strengthen it.

I respectfully say that Ms Shaw is downplaying the role of the NTA in the traffic management system. She is whitewashing us. As a designated approving authority under the infrastructure guidelines, the NTA has responsibility for safeguarding public investment by providing independent oversight, challenging assumptions, approving key expenditure decisions and deciding whether the project should proceed through successive approval stages. Given the repeated warnings from 2023 onwards, what additional safeguards did the authority put in place to protect taxpayers

Mr. Creegan has already answered that question. Taking into consideration Irish Rail presented things needed to change in the project, all those things need to be taken into account, including how to make sure we get to a traffic management system. Mr. Creegan mentioned looking at what options are available and making sure we have the safest route to protect public funding, not getting into the realm of litigation, which may delay a project for a long time, and assessing those risks as we move forward.

I do not intend to downplay the NTA's role in oversight. On a number of occasions, the NTA has worked closely with Irish Rail to assess what the issues are, how they can be resolved, what options are available to us and what is the best route forward to the outcome of a successful project at the best price for the taxpayer. All the that work has been in the past few years with colleagues in the NTA working closely with Irish Rail. All those factors need to be taken into consideration when making decisions about what the route forward is. We are now at another decision point where, subject to all the information that will be provided to us by Irish Rail, we will continue to assess the information, understand the key risks with the options available to us and make sure we have the best route in the interests of public funding going forward.

I am sorry that I do not have confidence that the proper lessons have been taken on board to give us confidence that governance and oversight is taking place on all the major projects we have committed to and that our constituents and commuters are depending on. I keep coming back to mid-2025 when Iarnród Éireann recommended that the termination of the Indra project be considered and a plan B be developed. The NTA that rejected developing a plan B and decided to take a more hands-on role. All that seemed to do was delay the inevitable and cost taxpayers more money.

I thank the witnesses for their time. I will pick up again on the TMS because the lack of oversight is concerning. It is a huge amount of money, especially in the context of the pressures relating to the expansion of public transport services. It seems that throughout this the NTA did not fully take on board the concerns expressed by Irish Rail. In its statements to the committee, Irish Rail officials outlined that it first expressed concerns about Indra's performance as far back as 2020. They outlined that the NTA was continually kept up to date on developments in the project and in 2024, a plan B scenario was recommended. In mid-2025, according to the evidence they provided to the committee, they recommended the termination of the contract. However, the NTA representatives are saying today that did not happen. Which is it? Is what Irish Rail said incorrect? In its evidence it stated that Iarnród Éireann recommended the termination of the contract be considered and a plan B be developed. Is that an incorrect statement?

In the assessments made at previous decision gates for changing and re-baselining the project, as Mr. Creegan mentioned, there was consideration of all options available and of what would be the route forward. Together, Irish Rail and the NTA, working with the supplier, came to a conclusion about what the best route was in the previous changes. We are now at another decision point where more information will be presented to us and, as mentioned, we will take those seriously.

I am asking the question because Ms Shaw stated earlier that Irish Rail did not recommend the termination of the contract. Its evidence completely contradicts that. Which is it? Is Irish Rail's statement that it recommended termination of the contract incorrect?

Through the options assessments, prior to making formal recommendations for the change control, formal recommendations were not to terminate the contract. The formal recommendations were to re-baseline the project and continue to work through the collaboration to get this back on track, as we stated previously.

What the NTA is saying today does not tally with what Irish Rail told the committee. That is very concerning.

On where we go from here, the NTA outlined that it received the recommendation from Irish Rail, but it has requested further information from Irish Rail. What specific information has it requested that it has not been provided with until now?

We have asked for a risk assessment around the risks associated with termination and a quantification of what payments may or may not be required to be paid to Indra on foot of termination. There are various termination provisions in the contract. We have asked why a particular one has been selected, and a number of other things.

In terms of where we go, we have asked for more detail on how we can get to the new system and legal advice on the proposal of how we can get to a new system. It is one thing to terminate, but a route to get to the new system is needed.

Why were the risk assessment and so on that Mr. Creegan outlined not requested before now? We are years into this, with years of Irish Rail expressing concerns, but it is only now, after the recommendation was made, that the NTA is looking for that information. This comes back to the NTA's oversight role in all this and the lack of oversight. Why is that information only being requested now?

To go back to the Deputy's earlier question, he said that Irish Rail "recommended". As I said earlier, there was a discussion where a view was expressed that another contractor would be preferred, and in terms of risks, I recall identifying the type of risk I just mentioned. I asked what was the risk of litigation and the costs associated with it, what was the procurement route to a new entity, was there any chance that litigation would block the route and so on. There were discussions about those things, but no formal recommendation was made to us at that stage so there was no formal request for a risk assessment.

Given the concerns that were expressed, it would be reasonable to assume the NTA would have sought that information at that point.

Indra is the contractor for the contactless payments on the public transport network as well. The NTA has not been able to express confidence today in Indra's ability to deliver the TMS. Does it have confidence that it will deliver on the contactless payments?

I can answer that. We have been working with Indra for two years of a four-year programme. To date, I am confident we can deliver it. It is a different part of Indra, involving a different team, so we are not bringing the potential baggage NTCC. However, I will outline a couple of differences, primarily on the contract..

In this case, the contract has 34 milestones with individual payments for those, based on delivery. As per Deputy Boland's question, they have hit those targets in planning, design, initial build and in test for parts of the system along the journey of the contract. We get a good sense that we can deliver this because we are getting those incremental deliveries.

I am limited for time but I will bring in a local issue, the 6.50 a.m. train from Athenry to Galway. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, informed me in the Dáil that this service will be continuing beyond July. I have made a representation to the NTA on this to ask if the necessary arrangements are in place for the continuation of the service. It was supposed to be a temporary service initially.

That service was a temporary one implemented by Irish Rail while works were under way in and around Oranmore. It was intended for the service to be terminated in August. Irish Rail says that about 55 people is the maximum number on that train. This number of people could be accommodated on a bus. That was a cheaper option to maintain a service between Athenry and Galway.

On the specific question, the Minister told me in the Dáil that this train service would continue.

I am coming to that. We are waiting to hear from the Department and the Minister in relation to any direction in that area.

The opening statement and the replies so far have been pretty stark. In 2026, we have had no new rural bus services or new BusConnects phases and it has been confirmed that we will not see any new buses this year. At the same time, services are over capacity all around the country and people are stuck in congestion. At the same time, throughout this year, we have heard the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, tell us how much money he has given the NTA and that there will never be a Supplementary Estimate, etc. Maybe there will not be a Supplementary Estimate this year but there also will not be any new services. For commuters across the country, that is probably the most important thing.

The fight now is to see what can be delivered for commuters in 2027. In light of the inflationary pressures the witnesses have spoken about, what scale of additional resources will be needed in budget 2027 for the NTA to be able to deliver a number of BusConnects routes and maybe some Local Link services as well? What percentage or overall scale of increase in its budget does the NTA need to see in 2027 so that it can start delivering new routes to the commuters who need them?

Mr. Ryan will probably be able to give more detail on the figures but we are in that budget cycle now, working with the Department. Within that, we have presented the Department with the funding we would need to maintain the existing services, including inflationary impacts, alongside all of the new services that we wanted to introduce in 2027. This means more Local Link services and other bus services as well.

From the engagements to date, does Ms Shaw get a sense that the Minister is minded to provide enough money to deliver new services, not just existing levels of service, ELS?

The ambition is there. That is what we want to do. That is all part of the delivering sustainable transport programme as well. Those conversations need to happen with the Department of public expenditure, as it will make the decisions about what funding is then made available to the Department of Transport.

Ms Shaw's colleague might talk about the numbers.

Yes, Mr. Ryan will give some of the figures.

Unfortunately, we are not quite there with an answer on this because it depends on operational readiness. Because no funding was made available this year, no additional driver recruitment has taken place over and above the requirements to maintain the existing service. We are in discussions with Dublin Bus in particular, which would be a significant part of the additional ask for next year for network redesign in Dublin. We have a meeting in the next few days with the HR department of Dublin Bus to see what it thinks can be delivered in terms of drivers and when it will happen. We will have greater clarity-----

The failure by the Government to fund extra services this year is having an double-whammy impact on the ability to deliver new services as well next year.

Unfortunately, yes, and this goes back to Ms Shaw's point about single-year funding. If we had multi-annual funding, we could plan ahead on a more confident basis.

I want to ask about fares, which were mentioned in the opening statement. Who makes the ultimate decision on a fare increase? Is it the NTA or the Minister?

The NTA is the authority that makes the determination on fares.

In the NTA's engagement with the Minister on budget 2027, would he be aware of how much he secures in the budget allocation versus what the NTA has to supply through fares? Will he be aware of what consequences the amount he gives will have as regards the NTA's need to increase fares or not?

As I mentioned, when we are doing the preparation for what funding comes in from the Exchequer and the contribution that the fares make into that, we put that global figure together. That information is visible to the Department and the Minister.

I am sure that my colleagues and I will lobby the Minister vigorously to get that funding increased if he ever joins us at the committee. It has been a while since we have seen him.

Ghost buses are a huge issue in my constituency and around the country. Routes such as the 37 and the 40E in particular are badly impacted. Ms Shaw mentioned that the new automatic vehicle-location system finally being rolled out. It was piloted in Waterford this year. Will the system be across the entire public transport service network by the end of 2027?

I am sure Mr. Higgins will answer in more detail but, yes, that is the plan. It is not just about the technology but also some of the operational procedures because it still requires the bus drivers to log onto the bus and provide information about cancellations, diversions, etc.

One of the reasons I have heard for the location of the bus not tallying with what is on the app or the real-time monitor is that the automatic location system is sometimes turned off by drivers. Will that be impossible now under this system?

Mr. Higgins will answer on the new system but I think that will be the case. At the moment, there are lots of different kinds of operational procedures, from getting the buses out of the depot first thing in the morning to turn-backs, locations and managing congestion or an accident on the road network. As the buses are working, the drivers need to do some of those things as well as the controllers back in the depot. It is a combination of technology and those operational procedures. We have been working with the operators on tightening up on those, while delivering the technology.

For example, right now I am never clear, when a time for a bus comes up on my app or on the real-time monitor, whether that is actually being pinged from the bus or whether it is the timetabled time the bus at which the bus is expected if everything is running right. When this new system is operating and I am standing at my bus stop in Dublin 15, will I be seeing the actual, real-time place where the bus is and how long it will take to come to that stop or will I be seeing the timetabled time?

That is a simple question with a complicated answer, unfortunately.

Mr Higgins has 52 seconds.

I will do my best. Let me answer in broad strokes. We currently have five legacy automatic vehicle location, AVL, systems running across the PSO network. The next generation AVL will be a step change in terms modernising those five systems.

Will it replace those five systems?

Yes. It will replace those five with something a bit more modern. In terms of accuracy of real-time passenger information, RTPI, it certainly gives us a better chance to standardise the interchange of messages between buses.

On the Deputy's specific question, generally, the prediction generator generates the estimated time of arrival of the bus to the bus stop. What a person sees on the app is the estimated time of arrival of the bus.

Is that based on the predictor knowing where the bus is right now?

Yes, one of the key functions of the AVL system is that the service controller can see where the bus is on the network but the engine is calculating when it will get to every stop across the network.

Apologies for the overlapping meetings. I thank the witnesses for attending. I have a few questions to put to them. I recently raised with the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, the issue of rail services out of Heuston Station. There is an hourly service to Cork that stops at Limerick Junction, giving a service into Limerick city. It then veers off to the right, giving a service to Sixmilebridge and Ennis. It takes in a lot of the west of Ireland and is an hourly service, which is hugely valued. It runs all day but at 8 p.m., there is no service. I have queried this with Irish Rail and the Minister of State. It seems to be a PSO service all day long but not at 8 p.m. I just cannot fathom why that is.

The other issue I want to raise regarding that service is that there are no late-night services. The last service out of Dublin is at 9 p.m. This means that anyone from the west of Ireland who has come to Dublin for a match, concert or other event is nearly tied into having to stay here overnight at huge expense in hotels because they cannot get back from the city.

I accepted the argument that it was largely due to the need for line maintenance at night time, but I then looked at the services that go towards the North. A service leaves midweek at 11.40 p.m. from Grand Canal Dock via Connolly Station. Services run along the Dundalk line until approximately 1.30 a.m. Why is there one rule for services going in that direction and a different rule entirely for services going to Cork, Limerick and Clare?

We have increased later evening rail services in recent years on, for example, the Waterford line. It is something we want to do more of but funding is a constraint.

Irish Rail does on occasion put on later night services coming out of Dublin when there are events. We are trying to establish more of a standing operational arrangement with Irish Rail for events handling generally and services for those events.

On line work, it is not the case that a service would not run past 8 p.m. because of line works, except for occasions where there would be line closures due to planned maintenance. That would not typically be the reason we could not put on a later evening service.

Mr. Ryan might address the issue around the 8 p.m. service, or the lack thereof. It is a public service obligation, PSO, funded service through the morning, afternoon and evening. The service picks up again at 9 p.m. but there is no service at 8 p.m. You might say that it is only one hour of the day, but it is disruptive to people who have plans to get out of Dublin and to go back home. What is the logic behind the lack of a PSO service at 8 p.m.?

As I say, we want to improve evening services coming out of Dublin. At the moment, we are constrained because of funding. We are looking at what we can do with timetables in 2027. We are starting that work with Irish Rail.

I thank Mr. Ryan. When a PSO is initiated, does Irish Rail make the proposal? Where does the case begin? Does it begin with Irish Rail and the National Transport Authority, NTA? I presume the ministerial office is quite removed from the decision-making, but who initiates the process? We have discussed it here many times. It has been on the airwaves. The public are demanding a service at that hour. I hope it will be included in the 2027 schedule. Who initiates it and what more do we, as elected representatives, have to do to articulate this?

We take all public representations on board. We have a joint working group that meets Irish Rail and the NTA every fortnight. We look at plans for timetable changes or what can be done. There are two timetable changes coming up. The one in December 2026 will probably involve changes to timings rather than anything that will involve funding. There is at least one timetable change planned for 2027 and perhaps two. We have to work that through with Irish Rail.

Irish Rail and the Minister have said that line maintenance is an issue. There is not double-tracking on the whole network and, therefore, it makes sense at night time to shut down the line and carry out maintenance, yet it is not happening the whole time. As someone who frequently uses the service, I would make the point that when the line is being maintained - and it is important that the work happens - it is a section of line. You might have to get off the train at Thurles and there might be a shuttle bus bringing all the passengers to Limerick Junction to continue their journeys. We must be the only European capital in this day and age that does not have services until midnight. Most European countries have that. The lack of such services ensures that the monopoly Dublin has on tourism is continuing because people fly into the capital and stay there. They can only day-trip down the country because they have to come back to stay in Dublin at night. Irish Rail and the NTA could play a major role here by putting on a 10 p.m., 11 p.m. and midnight service. That would be transformational.

Speaking of tourism, I congratulate the witnesses on the incredible roll-out of the TFI Local Link and TFI Anseo. I have seen great services in my own county and neighbouring counties. The Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, has a fairly large sum of money available in a legacy fund for the Ryder Cup in Adare. I would make the point that the real legacy here will be transport links into Limerick for the Ryder Cup. In Clare, where the Walker Cup and the Irish Open will be held, we will be funnelling people back along the most beautiful and scenic roads, but they are not ready for this kind of traffic. Is there anything the witnesses can tell the committee about what the NTA is going to do about the Ennis town bus service and, in particular, Local Link services back to west Clare, bearing in mind that these huge events are going to be taking place across the next 12 months?