I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I welcome Deputy Neville, his guests and all of our other guests. I hope they enjoy their afternoon.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:

“Amendment of section 2 of National Training Fund Act 2000

1. Section 2 of the National Training Fund Act 2000 is amended by the substitution of the following subsection for subsection (14):

“(14) (a) Accounts of the Fund shall be prepared on an annual basis, in such form and (subject to paragraph (b)) in such manner as the Minister for Finance may direct, and the Comptroller and Auditor General shall examine, evaluate and certify every such account and a copy thereof, together with the report thereon of the Comptroller and Auditor General, shall be laid by the Minister before each House of the Oireachtas.

(b) The accounts specified in paragraph (a) shall specifically identify payments made pursuant to section 7(2B), and address how the making of such payments shall impact the funding available for schemes of the nature set out in section 7(2)(a) to (c) and the overall achievement of the purposes set out in section 7(2)(a) to (c) aforesaid.”.”.

As we know, this fund was established in 2000 and was paid into by businesses and employers to ensure the continued training and upskilling of employees and potential employees, including apprentices. I recognise that the fund has accumulated a considerable amount of money that needs to be unlocked and I agree with that unlocking. However, employers have concerns about the change of use of the fund. It was never supposed to be for the acquisition, upgrading, construction or reconstruction of facilities and premises, money for which would typically have come out of Exchequer capital funding. This is a deviation from what the fund was established for under the Act and it could rapidly deplete the surplus without delivering any real impact in skills development. That is the main concern of employers.

My amendment proposes a couple of small changes to the existing Act to ensure that the employer's voice is heard. Amendment No. 1 proposes to insert the following provision into section 2, "Accounts of the Fund shall be prepared on an annual basis, in such form and (subject to paragraph (b))". Accounts are prepared annually as it stands and are examined and certified by the Comptroller and Auditor General. My amendment provides that the Comptroller and Auditor General would evaluate the accounts as well and to include any funding spent that is different than heretofore. In this way, the accounts will specify what payments have been made under the new section, pursuant to section 7(2B) of the 2000 Act. The accounts will also "address how the making of such payments shall impact the funding available" for the schemes for which the fund was initially set up.

I am also proposing in section 7(5) of the Act a small change with respect to the performance, generally, by the Minister of his or her functions under this section. The Act says "from time to time" but I am providing that the Minister shall, "on an annual basis", consult with representatives of employees and employers as he or she considers appropriate. Within that, where there are payments proposed for the incoming year, they would be set out before the Houses of the Oireachtas, including details of those payments and how it is proposed to make them for the purposes set out in section 7(2B)(a) and 7(2B)(b) in the following 12 months. Again, the Minister will outline how the making of such payments will impact on the funding available for schemes of the nature set out in the original Act and show that the payments made for the purposes set out in section 7(2B) will not impede or frustrate funding for the achievement of the purposes set out in sections 7(2)(a) to (c).

I welcome the Minister to the House. I support the National Training Fund (Amendment) Bill, which makes absolute sense. It is a short, concise Bill and we all know what it is about. I support the additionality of what Senator Tully is proposing, which also makes absolute sense. I do not see any issue with it. I happen to sit on the Joint Oireachtas audit committee. I have also sat on a number of State audit committees and am particularly interested in the corporate governance of our public expenses. It is very important that we have full accountability and transparency. We have had issues in the training sector and in the education sector in particular. There have been concerns regarding governance in the former vocational education committees, VECs, now the education and training boards, ETBs. I do not intend to go into that now but the Minister will be familiar with some of them. Anything that brings additionality and safeguarding to corporate governance is really important.

I support amendment No. 1 moved by Senator Tully, which seeks to ensure that:

Accounts of the Fund shall be prepared on an annual basis, in such form and ... in such manner as the Minister for Finance may direct, and the Comptroller and Auditor General shall examine, evaluate and certify every such account and a copy thereof, together with the report thereon of the Comptroller and Auditor General, shall be laid by the Minister before each House of the Oireachtas.

I could not argue with any of that and do not think the Minister would either. It is better to be safer and surer and to have additional measures in place. This is a very simple request and it makes absolute sense. It is about confidence in the governance of these structures that are under the Minister's remit. I hope the Minister will be in a position to support this amendment. It is worthy and makes absolute sense. If we are to learn anything from past experience in the training sector in particular, but also in the education sector, it is better to be sure and to put these controls and governance measures in place.

I commend this amendment and thank Senator Tully and her colleagues in Sinn Féin for tabling it. I urge the Minister to accept it but, ultimately, that is a matter for him. It makes absolute sense and would send a very clear message. What better person than the Comptroller and Auditor General and what better entity than the Department of Finance, both of which are stitched into this proposal? The report can be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas for scrutiny, if deemed necessary as a result of their comments or recommendations.

As no other Senators have indicated a wish to speak, I call the Minister to respond.

Are we taking the two amendments together?

Yes.

I thank Senator Tully for her proposal and both her and Senator Boyhan for their engagement and contributions. While I understand the intention behind these amendments, I do not propose to accept them and will outline the reasons for that now. I will deal with each amendment separately.

Amendment No. 1 proposes to amend section 2 of the National Training Fund Act 2000. I will speak on the original section in the Act, which is in two parts. The first part seeks to include the word "evaluate" in addition to the requirement for the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine and certify the accounts of the National Training Fund. The role of the Comptroller and Auditor General is to carry out audits to obtain a reasonable assurance about whether the financial statements as a whole are free from material misstatement due to fraud or error.

The Comptroller and Auditor General also seeks to obtain evidence about the regularity of financial transactions in the course of audit and reports if there is any material instance where public money has not been applied for the purposes intended or where transactions did not conform to the authorities governing them.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has the power under the Act to undertake an examination of the operation of the NTF and undertook such an examination in 2023. It is a matter for the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to determine its own work plan. The Comptroller and Auditor General's examination power and current audit of the NTF accounts comprise a sufficient check to ensure the appropriate use of the NTF in accordance with the National Training Fund Act. I am satisfied, therefore, that the current section 2(14) of the National Training Fund Act 2000 is sufficient and that no amendment is needed to this section. This section provides for the preparation of the NTF accounts on an annual basis, the examination and certification of those accounts by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the laying of these accounts before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The second part of the amendment seeks to include a provision whereby the accounts of the fund shall specifically identify payments made under section 7(2B) and address how the making of such payments shall impact the funding available for schemes for the purposes of the Act and the overall achievement of the purposes of the Act. I want to be very clear on the next point. The amendments to the National Training Fund Act, which allow for spending on buildings, land and equipment, will not divert funding from the core purposes of the fund, namely training and skills development, as set out in sections 7(2A) to 7(2C). The funding for the purposes set out in section 7(2B) is being provided from the NTF surplus and it is structured as a six-year package. This ensures the core objectives of the fund remain fully protected. As I have previously outlined, NTF expenditure is encompassed within my Department's expenditure ceilings. This means that, all things equal, an increase in NTF expenditure requires a corresponding decrease in my Department's Vote expenditure. Furthermore, any increase in NTF expenditure also requires an increase in the overall Government expenditure ceilings. This approach ensures that the use of surplus funding for capital investment is managed within the broader fiscal framework without undermining the delivery of training and skills programmes that are essential to the fund's purpose.

Furthermore, my officials prepare detailed accounts for the fund annually for audit and certification by the Comptroller and Auditor General. These accounts are laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas as soon as they are certified by the Comptroller and Auditor General. They set out the expenditure for each scheme in the fund and identify current and capital expenditure. The details of any new schemes developed in accordance with section 7(2B) will also be included in the accounts of the NTF, audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas in line with the requirements set out in the Act. The expenditure on all schemes, including any developed in accordance with section 7(2B), will continue to be provided in the NTF accounts. The amendment is not required because the level of auditing and transparency and the presentation of accounts are sufficiently catered for by all the measures I have already outlined.

My Department has recently received an ESRI report on developing a framework for monitoring NTF expenditure. We asked the ESRI to examine how NTF initiatives could be evaluated effectively, identifying the best methodological approach for each project and assessing whether our data infrastructure supports this. The report, Roadmap for an evaluation of the National Training Fund, is now under review and we will consider its progression in 2026. It contains significant recommendations that would give us a comprehensive and robust framework for the future evaluation of NTF-funded programmes.

I hope Members will agree that the sufficient safeguards already contained within the legislation, the publication of reports and the existing audit structures provided for in statute, combined with the initiative to engage the ESRI to produce a paper on the effective uses of the NTF, which paper will be made publicly available in due course, provide reassurance that there is due diligence, that the accounts are available to all and, more important, that the scrutiny of the use of the moneys is highlighted and available to all involved for their consideration. For all of these reasons, it is not proposed to accept the first amendment.

I will now speak about the second amendment, amendment No. 2, which proposes to amend section 7 of the National Training Fund Act 2000. There are two parts to this amendment and I will deal with each separately. The first part seeks to amend the wording in section 7(5) to provide that the consultation between the Minister and representatives of employers and employees would happen on an annual basis rather than from time to time. There is already strong and ongoing engagement between my Department and representatives of employers and employees. This happens through the National Skills Council and the high level skills implementation group across a range of skills and labour market issues.

The National Skills Council's terms of reference make it clear that its role is to optimise enterprise engagement and ensure the most effective use of NTF expenditure. One of its key outputs is an annual statement of strategic advice, which I submit to the Government and that I understand is usually published subsequently. I am also progressing plans to establish a national skills observatory, an important new mechanism to strengthen the responsiveness of the NTF. This reflects a key recommendation of the council in its budget advice earlier this year. The national skills observatory will look forward having regard to future skills needs, labour market needs and appropriate skilling for enterprise, and societal needs that will flow from these. It is an important, progressive move. I look forward to the further development of the plans for the observatory.

Beyond that, we also have a strong ecosystem of engagement at regional level. The regional skills forums, funded by the NTF, enable direct dialogue between employers and education and training providers, ensuring local needs are met quickly and effectively as they arise.

I regularly meet officials from IBEC and ISME, the employer representative bodies, to discuss general issues and the NTF. I have attended their seminars and conferences and meet their executive teams. I invite them to my Department and engage with them on a range of events concerning this subject matter. The engagement between me, my Department and representatives of employers and employees happens far more frequently than on an annual basis. In fact, if we were to update the legislation to specify on an annual basis, it would limit my engagement rather than increase it. The latter is the intention. It would stymie me in meeting representatives as much as I would like.

The phrase “from time to time”, as currently used, more accurately reflects the ongoing engagement that occurs, and for this reason I do not propose to accept this amendment. Were I to do so, it would result in a backward step and an unnecessary fetter on the discretion of the Minister to engage with relevant stakeholders when they wish and as frequently as I do. This also applies to the unions. Through the Labour Employer Economic Forum, I meet trade unions regularly, and much more than once per year.

The second part of the amendment seeks to provide that the Minister shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas details of any payments proposed to be made under section 7(2B) in the following 12 months and outline how the making of such payments will impact on the funding available for schemes under the purposes of the Act so that payments made under section 7(2B) will not impede or frustrate funding for the achievement of the purposes of the Act. The budgetary and Estimates process already sees the provision of the full details on the funding proposed under the NTF before the start of each financial year.

Estimated expenditure for the following year, including in respect of each scheme under the NTF, is published in the budget book on budget day and in the Revised Estimates Volume for public services, where NTF expenditure is clearly listed as an appendix. In the budget debate on the day of the budget or on subsequent days, I outline to the Dáil my Department's allocation under the budget, including the allocation for the NTF. I also deliver a speech to the Dáil following the budget outlining my Department's allocation from the budget, which includes the NTF allocation. The Act has a double lock already built in in that I must approve expenditure with the consent of the Minister for public expenditure.

I also regularly appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to provide updates on expenditure from both my Department's Vote and the NTF. These arrangements ensure transparency and accountability. Requiring NTF schemes for section 7(2B) to be laid separately before the Houses would be an unnecessary complication. It is fair to say I appear before this House regularly, or more than from time to time, to account for my Department and activities.

While I appreciate the intention of what is proposed, it would have the unintended consequence of making the fund entirely unworkable.

It would create duplication and could delay allocation letters, where we allocate funds to different bodies that require them for things like course provision and learner engagement and to employers who depend on timely training intervention. It is necessary that we can move quickly at times to ensure the moneys are spent in the right way for the right fashion for all the reasons I set out in the parent Act, which remains unchanged in this amendment Bill. We are in a process across the Government where we are trying to fast-track delivery rather than decelerate it. Adding more layers of bureaucracy and complications would have the unintended consequence of slowing down the very goals we wish to achieve through this Bill.

For all these reasons, it is not proposed to set up a system where we lay the NTF scheme separately before the Houses. The information is already available to all Members through established processes, those being, the different engagements I mentioned above, including written or oral engagements across committees and Houses, publication in the various different budget books and all the many ways it is already shared with Members and, indeed, the wider public and stakeholders.

As I stated on Second Stage last week, this Bill provides that payments under section 7(2B) can only be made for the purposes specified in sections 7(2)(a) to (c) of the NTF Act. Therefore, any funding provided under section 7(2B) cannot impede or frustrate funding for the achievement of the purposes of the Act. The amendments the Bill will make are about using surplus funding strategically to enhance capacity without undermining the delivery of training and skills programmes. The core mission of the fund remains intact, and these measures will strengthen, not weaken, and accelerate our ability and capacity to meet Ireland's skills needs, present and future. The current arrangements strike the right balance between transparency and flexibility. These amendments would create delays, reduce responsiveness and undermine the fund's ability to meet those vital skills needs. For those reasons, it is proposed not to accept the amendment.

I welcome the neighbour of Senator Shane Curley to the Gallery, Mr. Cathal King from Kilnadeema. He is most welcome to Seanad Éireann.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:

“(2) Section 7 of the National Training Fund Act 2000 is amended by the substitution of the following subsection for subsection (5):

“(5) (a) With respect to the performance generally by the Minister of his or her functions under this section, the Minister shall, on an annual basis, consult with such representatives of employees and such representatives of employers as he or she considers appropriate.

(b) Where the Minister proposes to make payments from the Fund for the purposes set out in subsection 2B, he or she shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas—

(i) details of the payments that it is proposed to make for the purposes set out in sections 7(2B)(a) and 7(2B)(b) in the following 12 months, and

(ii) outline how the making of such payments will impact on the funding available for schemes of the nature set out in section 7(2)(a) to (c) so that payments made for the purposes set out in section 7(2B) will not impede or frustrate funding for the achievement of the purposes set out in section 7(2)(a) to (c) aforesaid.”.”.

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

Now.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

Now.

Is that agreed? Agreed.