I apologise to anyone watching the proceedings for that brief suspension, which was necessitated by a vote in the Chamber. We have received no apologies. Members are all very welcome. I ask anyone attending remotely to use the mute setting when not contributing in order to avoid any background noise or feedback. I remind everyone in attendance to ensure mobile telephones are either on silent mode or switched off entirely.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Participation from within the precincts of Leinster House means contributors are protected by absolute privilege in respect of presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action in respect of anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that does not happen. Therefore, if Deputies' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative to comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I warmly welcome the Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy Naughton, the Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion, Deputy Michael Moynihan, and their officials. The select committee is meeting to consider the Revised Estimate and Further Revised Estimate for Vote 26. The Estimates process is Dáil Éireann's method for allowing the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation to seek to withdraw funds from the Exchequer to meet most Government spending obligations. Articles 17.1.1° and 28.4.4° of the Constitution provide for the presentation to, and consideration of, Estimates by Dáil Éireann. Standing Order 217 requires Estimates to be considered in committee. It is a well-established practice that they are referred to the relevant sectoral select committee.

Once hearings conclude, committees send a message to Dáil Éireann, which generally approves Estimates without debate. Committees cannot amend Estimates and have no formal role in approving them. However, Standing Order 223 provides that committees may make a report to the Dáil in respect of their consideration of Estimates. The Revised Estimate Volume, REV, for public services provides considerably more detail at subhead level, as well as performance metrics. Revised Estimates, or the revised final proposed spending for the next year, form the basis for parliamentary scrutiny of allocated expenditure.

The Minister has five minutes to make an opening statements, after which there will be a question-and-answer exchange with members.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to engage with it on members' consideration of my Department's Estimates allocation for 2026. I am accompanied by my colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion, Deputy Moynihan, and officials from my Department.

It is important to acknowledge at the outset that our investment in education has enabled this country to continue to be recognised globally for the strength of its education system. Our pupils and students consistently perform at high levels internationally. The Government is committed to ensuring that every child and young person, regardless of background or ability, is supported to learn and thrive.

The Estimate for Vote 26 provides for a net allocation of €13.6 billion. This is a gross allocation of €14.1 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of some €459 million. The gross allocation is made up of €12.4 billion in current expenditure and €1.7 billion in capital expenditure.

My Department is allocated €10.7 billion on pay and pensions. This represents 75% of the expenditure allocation and provides for over 114,500 public sector employees. Other significant expenditure areas include capital infrastructure for school buildings, school transport, capitation grants to schools and grants to other organisations and agencies.

As part of budget 2026, additional investment has been allocated to meet increased costs. In addition, extra funding was subsequently approved by the Government for the Department of Education and Youth to help ensure that high-quality education services are maintained for children and young people. This funding is now on a permanent basis and will address the long-standing structural deficit, thereby reducing the reliance on Supplementary Estimates funding going forward.

It is important to note that the Department of Education and Youth has a proven track record of accurately forecasting the costs required to appropriately fund the schools education sector during the annual budgetary process. In terms of value for money, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, recently examined Ireland's investment and outcomes in education and, in its published report, found that Ireland is "at or close to the frontier" when it comes to public spending efficiency.

In addition to addressing the base funding, the increased budget includes provision for additional SNAs due to no redeployment of existing SNAs in the 2026-27 school year; resources to accommodate additional children and young people with special educational needs in our schools; enhanced supports for survivors of historical residential abuse; and meeting obligations arising from ongoing negotiations of certain pay and conditions of staff working across the schools education sector. This has resulted in an overall increase of €1.9 billion in the gross expenditure allocation for 2026 over the original allocation for 2025. Securing this funding seeks to address a long-standing funding gap and will help support funding for teachers and SNAs working away in our schools to meet the needs of almost 4,000 schools and 1 million students. I am proud that we are allocating such significant investment for primary, post-primary and special needs education along with funding for youth education-related services, which allows us to tackle disadvantage and support the achievement and needs of all our students.

The increased investment secured includes additional funding for important measures such as 3,000 additional SNAs and 1,500 special education teachers in 2026 and 2027; continuation of important curricular development, such as senior cycle redevelopment and enactment of the redeveloped primary curriculum; a new DEIS plan and DEIS plus scheme, a further positive step in this Government's commitment to lift more children out of poverty and to give them the futures they deserve; investment to continue the roll-out of school therapy within special schools and to extend it into our mainstream schools; increased capitation funding for primary, post-primary and special schools; significant additional investment in the school transport scheme; additional funding for youth services projects to support young people to develop the necessary skills and competencies to reach their full potential; funding for the convention on education, which will provide a unique opportunity for children, young people, parents, educators and wider society to shape the education system going forward; increasing the numbers of deputy principals in schools; and investment of €1.6 billion in the school estate to deliver expanded capacity for mainstream and special education provision, as well as upgrades to existing schools.

That is just a flavour of the issues that are reflected in these Estimates, and I hope that this has been of assistance to the committee. I am happy to address any queries.

I thank the Minister. As is common practice at an Estimates meeting of the committee, we do not use our usual rotational order of speaking. It is lámha suas if members wish to speak. We have also agreed to have seven minutes per speaker. We will hopefully have additional rounds of speaking. The first person to indicate was Deputy Darren O'Rourke.

Will the Minister explain this piece concerning the long-standing structural deficit? When she walked into the Department what were the issues there? Is it related to pay and pensions and the scale of that long-standing structural deficit? What was it? How much did it amount to? How was it resolved? The Minister is indicating that it is resolved, and that is welcome, but I ask her to give us an update on that.

I thank the Deputy for the question. The extra funding of €646 million that was approved by the Government on 21 April for the Department of Education and Youth was to help to ensure that high-quality education services are maintained for children and young people across the country. In particular, this extra funding will provide €416 million to address long-standing funding deficits on a permanent basis in the Department's Vote. This includes €301 million for school payrolls and €115 million for school transport services. There was €230 million for decisions taken post budget 2026. Those decisions include €150 million for additional school places for children with special educational needs. That is to cover additional costs for extra teachers, SNAs, school transport and some operational costs and capitation; €40 million for maintaining a heavily subsided school transport service for children to transport young people across the country and to meet obligations arising from ongoing negotiations for pay and conditions of staff working across the schools education sector; and enhanced supports agreed for survivors of historical residential abuse.

I am interested in the €301 million the Minister has identified as long-standing. How has that arisen? I am just trying to understand. The Department has been coming forward with a supplementary budget every year to cover costs. Is it the expanding teacher numbers or-----

First of all, 86% of the current budget within the Department goes on pay and pensions. For several years, additional funding through Supplementary Estimates was required within the Department of education along with retrospective pay deals and then crisis-related issues that appear like the war in Ukraine, the Covid pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis and particularly the area of special education, where we all are very aware that the demand has increased.

I might come at it from a different angle then. We will all have seen the media coverage. From our position on the Opposition benches anyway, the Government does not have the detail in relation to this. In terms of this idea that other Departments will have to supplement education or will have to renegotiate their budgets, the root concern and the point I am getting to is that there is a concern that everything that has happened in the Department of education will have an impact on what is delivered in the future, including pay negotiations, expansion of teacher numbers and, equally importantly, special classes and special school places. Will the Minister give an indication of how all of that is being considered? This seems like a massive correction, but there is only one direction of travel, really. The demand for specialist services in particular in the Department is very significant and will continue that way.

My understanding of the €646 million, that additional funding, is that it has been sourced from €200 million from contingency funding available and then €464 million from the application of an expenditure levy, and that is a matter for the Department of public expenditure and reform. From my point of view, as Minister for Education and Youth coming into the Department, I have an obligation to make sure that my Department is adequately funded, and it was very clear to me when I came in that there was a structural deficit that needed to be addressed and a need to move away from having to get supplementary budgets every year.

Has the fact that this structural deficit was emerging been raised consistently over the years?

It was very clear. The Department of education received supplementary budgets every year. That was due to issues around the war in Ukraine, the cost-of-living crisis, as I have said, and Covid. We are a demand-led Department. It is important to say that the review carried out by the IMF last year found the Department of education to be at the frontier of efficiency when it comes to public spending. We are demand led. There are children in our schools who need a place and need to be educated. We must ensure that we have sufficient staff, teachers and SNAs in order that children thrive across our education system.

I was at the INTO conference, as was the Minister. I heard what she and the Secretary General said. The Minister will know that the INTO contests the figures relating to expenditure on education. That is a matter for another day, however. I just wanted to say that I have certainly heard those figures contested.

School transport has come up repeatedly in the context of the €301 million and €230 million, as well as with regard to the additional €40 million. There was a proposal in the Government’s review for the eligibility criteria to be changed and based on distance to the nearest or next nearest school. Is that going to change for the September 2026 intake? It was proposed to be changed last year, but was not.

The school transport scheme is costing somewhere in the region of €527 million in total. There is a huge investment in school transport. The numbers have increased from 120,000 students five years ago to over 180,000 students at the moment. There has been a huge increase, obviously, in the number of special education schools as well that-----

I am tight for time. Are the criteria going to change in September?

No, the criteria will stay the same. We are investing hugely in the transport system. It is heavily subsidised. Each place costs €1,400. We are subsidising it to the tune of over €500 million.

I warmly welcome Deputy Catherine Callaghan, who has joined our committee. We look forward to working with her over the remainder of this Dáil term. I also recognise the major role that Deputy Emer Currie played as a member of this committee. Deputy Currie has moved to another committee. We wish her well in her new role.

For anyone who has joined us in the past few minutes, given that it is a select committee, it is a case of lámha suas. For members’ benefit, the order of speakers we have is Deputy O’Rourke, Deputy Cummins, Deputy O’Meara, Deputy Roche, Deputy Ní Raghallaigh, Deputy Coppinger and so forth. We will get a second round of contributions in. Deputy Cummins is next. Tá seacht nóiméad aici.

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for being here. I also thank their officials, who, I am sure, have put in a lot of work to make sure that we have all the documentation necessary to allow us to have this debate.

The Minister stated that there was a structural deficit when she took up this portfolio. There is nothing worse than coming into something and realising that there is a difficulty. What measures have been put in place to make sure that is not going to be the situation for 2027 and the years ahead?

A total of 86% of the current budget related to pay and pensions. We needed to ensure that the structural deficit was addressed. I am confident that we now have the funding for the coming year. Of course, unprecedented events may occur, as was the case with the war, Covid and the cost of living. I want to move away from supplementary budgets. I thank the officials in the Department of public expenditure for their work with my officials in that regard.

The IMF’s review found that Ireland achieved world-class outcomes for average levels of investment in education. This shows the great work that is happening across the country, notwithstanding the increase in demand, particularly in the area of special education.

The OECD states that Ireland is at the lower end of spending when measured against GDP. There are other ways of measuring it. Of course, that is not to say that we do not have is a world-class education system. Obviously, we all know people are working very hard. When we are at the lower end of spending in comparison with other OECD countries, however, it is always going to be a difficulty. I am interested in hearing how the Minister is going to negotiate with the Department of public expenditure and reform in the future to ensure that this is not the situation. Expenditure for education will increase because we are going to have more needs, particularly in the area of special education.

There are a number of challenging areas. Current issues include: SNA workforce planning; ongoing negotiations in the courts about secretaries and caretakers; the school completion programme moving into the ETBs; and youth workers. These education workers and youth workers are not entitled to pensions. That is not even being taken into consideration by the Department of Education and Youth. They should absolutely be given pensions, both from a HR and an industrial relations perspective, like their teaching counterparts or others working in similar jobs. This is going to cause a difficulty for the Department. I am interested to hear how the Minister is going to fight for those people who are working in the education system. It is not good enough to wait for the Department of public expenditure and reform to indicate that it does not have the money for this. We are asking these people to work with vulnerable cohorts of students but we are not affording them proper pensions or pay and conditions. This is why people go on strike. I am interested to hear the Minister’s perspective on this.

I do not want to overload by asking too many questions at once. Maybe the Minister can answer that question first.

SNAs are public servants. In respect of resourcing, we are increasing the number of SNAs and the supports available to them because of increased demand. Of course, there are other industrial relations issues happening at the moment that I cannot comment on. I absolutely value the work they do, however. I will leave it there, because I know the Deputy has other questions.

In the context of being public servants, those working with the school completion programme are deemed to be public servants but they will not be given pensions. They are not, therefore, full public servants. It is the same for SNAs. They might be public servants, but they do not have pensions. Not all SNAs have pensions.

I might let Ms Mannion come in to provide the Deputy with the accurate information.

SNAs are public servants. They have access to an incremental salary scale. They are absolutely paid pensions. I have had responsibility for the pension unit in the Department for a number of years. They are entitled to pensions. They are on an incremental salary scale that increases up to €49,664. They have membership of the scheme, and it is compulsory for SNAs.

What about secretaries and caretakers? I know the Minister cannot comment on them at the moment. It will be the same situation for them. They are be public servants but they are not given pensions.

Industrial relations procedures are ongoing in that regard.

My point, rather than getting into the nitty gritty of it, is around these five sets of workers. It might be four sets of workers if we are saying that every SNA has access to a pension, although that is not my experience on the basis of what SNAs have told me. However, I will take what Ms Mannion has said at face value. The four groups of workers to whom I refer fall under the Department, but they do not have pensions. They may be afforded public servant status but they are not given pensions. That will increase the costs in the HR part of the Department’s expenditure.

On DEIS plus, I am sure the Minister received all the letters I wrote to her. While I am sorry for the volume of letters I sent, they highlight the reality in the Dublin 8, 10 and 12. These areas contain some of the most disadvantaged communities in the entire country, but they are not getting DEIS plus. I know there is a review happening and that all of those schools in question have asked for a review of their DEIS applications. Did the Department cap the number of schools eligible for DEIS plus based on what it could afford? I understand there is a structural deficit in this budget. Was DEIS plus status not awarded to those schools that should have got it due to of a lack of money in the Department’s budget to cover everyone? There is a huge feeling in the communities I represent that the Department did not have enough money and that, as a result, it had to limit the scheme to the top 121 schools. Every other school that came after that did not get a place. Two schools in Dublin 8 in my constituency got places, but other schools in the same area did not. Those schools serve the same families. The position is the same in Dublin 12. Did the structural deficit prevent those schools that need DEIS plus from getting it?

DEIS plus is a programme for Government commitment to ensure that we are targeting those areas with the most need in the context of educational disadvantage. This is the first time that we have ever done this in the history of the State. It is as a result of the collaboration and engagement with schools in these areas that were talking to the Government and officials within the Department and saying that specific targeted supports were needed.

In a full year, €48 million is the allocation. That is the largest amount ever. What I would like to do is to bed in DEIS plus and see how it is working. To be very clear, even if schools were not selected for DEIS plus, I still absolutely appreciate that there are schools and children with educational disadvantage right across the country and recognise the fantastic work being done in schools day in and day out by home school liaison workers and teachers. I want to see how Deis plus is working and then look at how we can tweak the data. It is all about the data we are getting through the CSO, the Pobal HP deprivation index, the information coming from schools, the primary online database, POD, and the post-primary online database, PPOD. That is what we are basing this on.

I will start with a question about the Minister's opening statement. She stated that there is €1.7 billion in capital expenditure at the outset but then, towards the end, referred to €1.6 billion in school estate expenditure to deliver expanded capacity in mainstream and special education. The Minister is clearly stating that capacity-----

It is a rounding up and a rounding down of the figure.

That is fine. I was wondering if there is other capital expenditure outside of that, but I get the point. That is perfect. In light of the significant increase in the Department's budget, which has been the subject of a lot of discussion, I have a concern about our pupil-teacher ratio and the key commitment in the programme for Government in that regard. If we are seeing such an increase in the Department's budget, will that have an impact on budgets every October in the future in the context of our ability to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio, as we committed to do in the programme for Government?

This is a commitment in the programme for Government. These are conversations I need to have now as part of the Estimates process with the Department of public expenditure and reform. The commitment on the part of the Government to do this is there. We cannot do it all in one year. However, it was really important to get the structural deficit addressed. That was absolutely key. I could not really go ahead with the programme for Government commitment in an honest fashion without getting it addressed. That is done now. I cannot pre-empt my discussions around the Estimates process, but, as the Deputy is well aware, that commitment is part of the programme for Government.

I have a question about specific capital expenditure. It relates to the letter the Minister sent to the committee. That letter contained updates on projects that were raised with her during the session we had with her four weeks ago. One year ago today, I started to make representations on behalf of Nenagh Community National School. I raised the matter of the school with the Minister four weeks ago, and it is relevant to the capital expenditure to which she referred in her opening statement. The Minister was here on 29 April. I appreciate that at the time she said she would raise the matter with her officials. I did not expect that an answer could be provided on the spot about one school. About two weeks later, I inquired with the Minister's office as to whether engagement had happened between the building unit and Nenagh Community National School, as she said would happen in this room about four weeks ago. To be fair to the staff in her office, they followed up on my query and got me an answer. This is not a criticism of them. The response I got from the building unit was essentially to the effect that engagement is ongoing. That is the answer I get every time I make a query. The response went on to reference the national development plan, as always. This is the response we all get every time we ask questions about school buildings.

It is now the end of May. Primary schools will be finishing up very soon. I have stated repeatedly in this room, in the Dáil and in correspondence with the Department that there will be no classroom for sixth class for the school to which I refer come September, because the school is growing vertically. In the documentation provided and the letter the Minister sent to this committee, a bit of an update was provided to the effect that there was engagement between the patron and the building unit on 15 May last. That was the day after I complained about the response I got, namely 14 May. In the context of the €1.6 billion or €1.7 billion in capital expenditure this year, will we at least get confirmation that the school in question will have a modular unit for September to allow it to house a class that currently has nowhere to go?

I am going to bring in Mr. Loftus to answer the Deputy directly.

Representatives from the Department and I met Clodagh Kelly, the chief executive of Tipperary ETB, on 15 May. That would have been a pre-arranged meeting. It was one of the projects we discussed with her in terms of working out an accommodation solution for Nenagh Community National School. We are having good engagement. There has been follow-up since that, and I would see that project going in a good trajectory.

That is somewhat positive, but we need confirmation very soon from the Minister that there will be somewhere for the class to go. This is an unusual case. I appreciate how the national development plan is working now. The Minister listed the schools. That is the answer, and we are working through those. Then there is the odd case where, physically, because it is a vertically growing school that has done exceptional work in recent years, there is no sixth class right now. Next year, there will be the first ever sixth class in that school. That class will need somewhere to go. I need to have an answer to give to my community and the school community to the effect that, come September, there will be a room on those school grounds for said class.

We are conscious of that. Tipperary ETB has done very good work in reconfiguring that school and all of that, and we are working on solutions. There is always a lead-in period with modular accommodation and things like that - just to be conscious of that too - but we are engaging well with the ETB around that. We see positive outcomes coming there shortly.

That is my worry about the lead-in period. I checked my emails before I came down here and discovered that it was this day 12 months ago that I started to raise this case. If we have a lead-in period that means come September we do not have a classroom for the students involved, it will not be as a result of the lack of a warning.

With any investment, we always have to be particularly conscious of not just looking at the immediate needs for September but also what the long-term needs are. It is a significant investment we are looking at there, and then there is the trajectory around that. We are always very conscious of the overall trajectory of enrolments at primary level and of what the long-term picture around that is in terms of requirements for additional capacity. The Department's approach is very much to maximise existing capacity as much as we can and then add extra capacity where we need to. That is part of the engagement we have had with that school and with schools in other areas.

The Minister published the NDP at the end of January. As part of that, there were additional projects added to meet the need for September, particularly in the area of special needs. There is also all the very good work that is being done in terms of opening and sanctioning new special classes.

I get that. When I ask about school buildings in general, I frequently receive the answer that the Department has to look at capacity generally in an area. The capacity of this school is that it is vertically growing, and there has not been an acknowledgement of that until that written answer I saw today to the effect that Nenagh now has co-education across the board at primary level. It is not that this school is growing massively; it is that it is growing vertically. That point needs to be taken on board before September in order to ensure that the sixth class pupils will have somewhere to go.

We will keep the Deputy updated in relation to that school.

I thank the Minister.

The Minister, the Minister of State and their officials are very welcome. I will touch on a current situation I find myself in with regard to a constituent. It relates to the July provision. The constituent missed the opportunity to apply. The portal was only open for six days this year. Last year, it was open for something like 12 weeks. In any scheme of things, a six-day window is exceedingly short. I am always conscious that teachers and the teaching staff do a lot of stuff. There is additional work that falls way outside of their teaching responsibilities. There will be ten families discommoded in the school to which I refer as a consequence of the deadline for applications being missed. I am anxious to understand what has happened in this regard, and I will make contact with the Department. I have been reminded that the call-out was notified to schools well in advance. That is all fine, but there will be exceptional circumstances that caused schools to miss it. My contact with the Department and the relevant authorities suggests that what has been applied for is way more than what was allocated for last year.

There does not seem to be any provision to make allowances for people who missed the opportunity or the application. Is it a budgetary measure? I know the Minister said earlier that there would be unprecedented circumstances and situations where today's Estimates may change. In any case, is there any flexibility in that instance I have just mentioned with regard to the July provision?

I thank the Deputy for his question. The summer programme, or the July provision as it was called, is very popular. It has gone from strength to strength and I know the value it holds for many families and, of course, young people across the country. This is the sixth year of the programme and we have seen the numbers increase significantly year on year, which is very positive. Last year, approximately 70,000 students took part in that. That is 1,800 schools. I understand applications have further increased this year. Schools were notified and would have known that it would open in May this year. I have spoken about having the structural deficit addressed but I also have to keep within my budget parameters because that is just what we have to do. It is demand-led. However, I understand the concern and perhaps frustration of families who may have missed that deadline. There are no plans at the moment to reopen it because the schools now have to start sanctioning the staffing to proceed with the summer programme across the country.

What came to my office was one school, and I am just trying to get a feel for how many more there would be right around the country. I am speaking about ten families. We cannot leave them without support. They missed the application - okay, that is fine - and people cannot make provision for transport until they know whether they have the scheme. Right now they have neither a scheme nor a transport system and the portal for the transport scheme closed on practically the same day. The bottom line is that this seems to be a case of six days not being adequate. This is a very significant scheme, as the Minister has mentioned, for those families who need it very badly. There has to be some formula or mechanism to ensure we do not leave them outside the door.

My second question is regarding the recruitment of the 3,000 SNAs and the 1,500 special education teachers. We can do that and it is very applaudable, but I am anxious for the schools that may not have the facilities and may require investment in facilities to be able to provide for the SNA to teach or mentor a child. I know it is a difficult one to manage. Can the Minister be confident that she can get the 3,000 SNAs and the 1,500 special education teachers?

Yes, I am confident that we can hire those. It is a very attractive job as well. We are working on the workforce development plan, the conditions of the role of the SNA and all of that. We have about 25,000 SNAs at the moment. By September we will have over 26,000 SNAs in the system, and I have funding for 3,000 SNAs this year and next year. When the Deputy mentions facilities, does he mean special classes?

Yes, exactly.

That is part of the funding I secured earlier this year to make sure we are putting in place the teachers, the SNAs and the special classes that will be required for this coming September. All of that work is happening with the NCSE at the moment. That was a big part of the extra funding we secured, and pay and pensions as well.

On where the extra SNAs or teachers are going in special education, we are opening special classes. Between this year and last year, we have over 1,000 special classes across the country opened. The decisions are being made with the school communities where there is capacity already within the schools, or if there is additional capacity needed there is a configuration grant. When we are opening the special classes and there is a teacher and two SNAs, one of the criteria we focus on is to ask about the space, the physical room, for that extra class. That is one of the criteria that are used in the negotiations across the country with the school bodies and the school patrons as well.

Deputy O'Meara asked my question but I want to stress how important the reduction of class sizes is. That would help solve a lot of our problems within the education system. I got an answer to a parliamentary question just yesterday saying that Kildare had the second highest level of section 29 appeals after Dublin. I wanted to come in on that as well to say we really need to see that commitment.

I want to talk about the summer programme, not the six days, which is very important. Has this been reviewed recently? Is it easier to attract teachers geographically, maybe where the cost of living is not so high? Is there a way that we can make this more attractive to teachers? I have constituents contacting me regularly to say their school just cannot provide the summer programme. We all know how important it is for children with additional needs and their families. They cannot get the teachers to do it. I do not know what to say to those families.

I thank the Deputy for her question. The officials may have more information but I know when I was previously in the Minister of State's role, that was an issue. Schools needed to be encouraged to do it, so we put in more incentives for schools by paying them more. I will hand over to Ms Mannion on this. The demand for this programme is just increasing. Again, this is a demand-led Department. Ms Mannion might outline the incentives to do this.

I thank the Deputy. She is correct. A number of years ago this was a challenge. We introduced a number of measures that have led to a significant uptake. The personal rates of pay for teachers and SNAs have seen an 85% increase in school staff taking it up since 2022. The other big thing we did, which has been hugely positive, was the special school teacher placement, particularly in special schools because they were the ones that were really struggling to recruit teachers. From the third week of May, the graduate teachers in the final year of the professional master of education, PME, were able to bolster special school capacity. Fifty-one student teachers participated in that in 2025. The other big thing that has been of help is the portal the Irish Primary Principals' Network, IPPN, opened. Some 2,400 jobseekers registered to work on the summer programme using that portal in 2025, compared with 1,700 who used it in the summer of 2024. That is what has seen the additional staffing being available. We have also facilitated student teachers in therapy and social care and early childhood education students in getting work and opportunities there, and they are paid as SNAs on the Department payroll. That is also in the additional staffing supports programme.

Well, we cannot get it in Kildare. Go raibh maith agaibh.

There are 161 new special classes over and above what was allocated originally but there are additional teachers for only 42 extra classes. Is this to do with the new inclusive special classes? It seems like it might be a dilution of support. What was the rationale behind that or where did that advice came from?

I am not sure of those figures. There is no dilution. Where there is a special class, schools can get a class teacher and two SNAs. We have 546 special classes-----

Will the Minister talk to me about the inclusive special classes? I am still trying to get my head around these new ones.

Yes. A total of 546 special classes have been announced already this year.

There were just over 400 this time last year, which means we are way ahead of our normal allocation at this point in the year. There are also 47 inclusive special classes already up and running. The schools in question contacted the Department to say they had students who do not need physically to be in a special classroom all day. They want to be in a mainstream class with their peers, where they were receiving support from the SNA and the special education teacher. Rather than just have those pupils going into mainstream, I wanted to provide an extra 1.5 teachers and two SNAs at post-primary and give the schools grant funding of €30,000 to set up equipment or whatever the pupils might need, cover access to school transport free of charge and provide all the resources that would come with attending a special class.

Beidh orm mo cheann a fháil timpeall air sin. Maidir le Gaeloideachas agus an buiséad atá ag an Roinn le Gaeloideachas a chur chun cinn, níl a dhóthain bunscoileanna Gaeilge againn, agus tá níos lú meánscoileanna. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil an t-éileamh ann. Níl an deis ag gach páiste bogadh ar aghaidh ó bhunscoil Ghaeilge go meánscoil Ghaeilge. An bhfuil buiséad ar leith ag an Roinn ina thaobh sin nó conas is féidir linn an Gaeloideachas a chur chun cinn?

Tá an Rialtas tiomanta chun tacú le hoideachas lán-Ghaeilge. Tá muid ag iarraidh tuilleadh deiseanna a chur ar fáil do pháistí agus do dhaoine óga a gcuid oideachais a fháil trí Ghaeilge. Sa pholasaí don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht, tá fís uaillmhianach leagtha amach ann go mbeidh oideachas lán-Ghaeilge ar ardchaighdeán ar fáil do chách i suíomhanna atá ilchumasach agus ilchultúrtha. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to establish Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcoláistí where there is demand and to support parents choosing Irish-medium education for their children. We are also committed to continuing to give ongoing support to Gaeltacht schools through the Gaeltacht school recognition scheme.

I am delighted with that commitment. A survey on schools' ethos conducted by the Department found that 13% of parents would like their child's school to change overnight from English-medium to Irish-medium. That percentage is very low and I am worried it is being used to reflect the demand for Gaelscoileanna. I have been looking for the past couple of weeks for figures on how many preschool parents would choose an Irish-medium school if they had that choice. Does the Minister have those figures? It seems to me the survey question was not correctly worded. I would love to see another survey that puts it properly.

The Minister has 30 seconds to respond.

The Deputy's question is a very good one. The Department will send the individual school results from the primary school survey to the patrons next week. By mid-June, schools will receive their own data, including on the views of parents of children not yet attending those schools. That will be part of the data, along with the views of parents of current pupils. There will be guidance for schools on examining the data and I have asked them to engage with the wider community as well. We will appoint a facilitator to schools that may want that support.

I thank the Minister. Another vote has been called in the Dáil, this time on amendment No. 10 of the Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill 2024. We are not yet into the voting block but we will have to suspend for a short while. When we resume, the next speaker will be Deputy Coppinger. She will be followed by me and thereafter by Deputies Callaghan and Dempsey. Is it agreed that we suspend for a short while? Agreed.

We will resume in public session. Even if we go to the voting block now we should have enough time to at least finish these contributions. First up is Deputy Coppinger; seacht nóiméad le do thoil.

I want to raise three issues. I will start with the summer or July provision because I have been contacted about it by parents and SNAs. They contacted me before and I checked today to see if there had been any improvement or update. I understand that the application window was really narrow. Many schools also took a break in May. Parents could not plan because they did not know if schools were going to provide or they did not know what staff were available. The staff could not plan what they wanted to do because they also did not know if schools were going to provide.

It seems very problematic that home provision is to look after or engage with a child in their home. What child should just be in their home for the summer? They should be going on trips and seeing places but because SNAs are not allowed to do that, children have to stay in their homes. The Minister must tackle that problematic scheme for next year.

I do not see why an SNA cannot be trusted like a youth worker or any other qualified person. Teachers are allowed to do that, but SNAs are not. Those are all the issues that people are very annoyed about. I will leave it with the Minister because I know she answered it already. I do not know if she wants to add anything.

Yes, I do. I hear the frustration. I know I am repeating myself but I know how important it is. I hear the concerns raised here this evening. I have a budget I need to keep within. As I said, I know the pressures we are all coming up against regarding this very important programme. I will take it away to consider the issues raised here today. I am conscious of the budget parameters I have to work within. That is my job; I know that.

I think it would have been budgeted for more people to participate in it, but the problem is that they did not get the opportunity.

I apologise for interrupting the Deputy. My understanding is that the demand and the numbers have increased significantly again this year as regards the uptake. That is my concern around the budgetary process. I understand it is demand-led.

To paraphrase a comment made by the Minister in her opening statement, Ireland is globally recognised as having a brilliant education system. This is because of "our investment in education", to use the Minister's own words. I take issue with that because spending on education in Ireland is much lower than the OECD average. The Minister's remarks could give the impression that we have amazing investment and that is the reason. For example, 10% less is spent on primary education in Ireland than the OECD average. Some 0.9% of GDP is spent on secondary education in Ireland, whereas 1.9% is the OECD average. We are near the bottom. Salaries for teachers are lower than the OECD average. The Minister's statement should have recognised that the value is coming off the backs of school staff. In some cases, teachers, SNAs, school secretaries and caretakers are not paid and pensioned properly, and do not get paid for holidays. We have had them in here. They had a strike, etc. There is also a question of morale. Morale is very low among teachers, particularly in secondary school with the senior cycle changes being foisted on them. I will give the Minister a chance to comment on that, but I suggest she should have reframed her speech in that context.

We have a world-class education system and it is absolutely because of the quality of our teachers and staff across the country; I will be the first to say that. I mentioned that the IMF did a review last year of the public spend on education. We are at the front tier of efficiency because we get world-class outcomes for average investment. That is because of the quality of our teachers and staff. I want to maintain that; that is my job. That is why I need to get this structural deficit addressed. However, it is also to address the concerns around teachers, workload and the pressures that are in all our schools, which are coming from society. As a former teacher, I am acutely aware of this. It is something I heard loud and clear at the teacher conferences. This is all about our students and young people, and making sure we have the resources to put in there. Ireland's levels of literacy and numeracy, as seen in the PISA results, are up there with our OECD counterparts. Again, it comes back to the quality of our teachers. I am not looking for a pat on the back or anything like that, but the Deputy is correct around average levels of investment.

Your speech was factually wrong-----

It was not.

-----because it was citing investment as being the reason. Anyway, I have just one more question I need to ask you.

For average investment, we are getting world-class outcomes.

Yes, from the staff.

Absolutely, from the teachers, staff and SNAs.

I want to finish with the Dublin 15 task force report, which was published since we last met. People are able to read its far-reaching recommendations. The parents played a big role in that. Is there a budget now for implementing the recommendations of the special task force for Dublin 15? I am not expecting the Minister to fund everything right away, but has she set aside a budget? For example, the disability support hub that was mentioned in the report is in the top five recommendations for the area. Another one would be a second special school. In that context, I held a meeting in Blanchardstown a couple of weeks back. A mother who came to that meeting has an 11-year-old son who has been out of school for two years. He is smashing things up in the house, and is obviously not getting what he needs. She has been told that he is on the waiting list for Danu special school, but there are about 48 children on the list for the school. This boy has no school place because there are not enough special school places for Dublin 15, which has a population similar to Limerick, which rightly has numerous special schools. What should that woman do? Does the Minister have a budget for Dublin 15?

I will comment briefly before I bring in the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, on this issue. It was very important that the Dublin 15 task force was set up, with the input of parents and schools, in order to set a standard for the rest of the country. As the Deputy knows very well, there is a particular pinch point across the country in making sure we are putting in the supports for children with additional needs. That was the importance of that task force. The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, is doing a lot of work in this area, so I might pass over briefly to him, not to cut into the Deputy's time.

The Dublin task force was a hugely important piece of work. There was huge engagement in it. It was set up by the Minister, Deputy Naughton. A huge amount of work has been done on it. On a weekly basis, we are looking to ensure we have places for children in September. We are looking at the special schools, in particular. In the large urban areas, where there is growth in population and growth in the number of children, we are looking at the special education requirements. Concerning the 11-year-old the Deputy mentioned, I would like to get a sense of what engagement there has been with the Department, the NCC or the statutory bodies. There is nothing as concerning as the picture the Deputy has painted of the mum who was at the meeting and her child, who is out of school, has behavioural issues and is not getting the supports he needs. We are working extremely hard to ensure we have those supports in place and we are reaching out to families. We need to know the challenges that are being faced so that we can meet the need.

I thank the Minister of State.

In recent years, we have increased the number of special school places in Dublin quite extraordinarily. In the past five years alone, 20 special schools have been opened across the country. By any yardstick across any other country, we are doing more in relation to special schools and special classes. In Dublin, we have grown the special schools. Again this year, there are two more new special schools being opened in September 2026 to meet the demand there. I apologise for going on but it is important to point that out.

I apologise to anyone who is watching the live feed of the committee, because yet again we have to go to vote. I understand that there are three deferred votes happening, which means we have to suspend the meeting again, but we will come back. The next speaker will be myself, followed by Deputies Callaghan and Dempsey. We will then have a shorter round for second contributions. Is it agreed that we suspend the committee for a short time? Agreed.

I welcome everyone back. I am the next speaker. In the Minister's opening statement, she did not mention one of the big issues looming over the 2026-27 academic year, namely, the potential exodus of many Ukrainian students from our school system. Given some recent Cabinet announcements and Government decisions, it looks like there will be a major shift in where some of these families and their children are accommodated. Of all sectors of society, schools were the first to upscale and provide classrooms where they never had them before and to provide English as an additional language, EAL, where it had not been provided before. If all of this unfolds, there is a risk that the schools that scaled up will face a cliff edge because their high enrolment figures will collapse and, as a result, they will lose capitation, EAL supports and all the other supports they have become accustomed to. Will the Minister comment on that?

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his question. The falling enrolment numbers at primary level will have an impact on some of our schools. Some Ukrainian students may move to other parts of the country. There will be an emphasis on children and families and where there are vulnerable people in those settings, cognisance will be taken of that. I would like to think the Department of justice will give special consideration to students and young people doing examinations in those locations. I understand from that Department that the changes will be made on a phased basis.

This is probably our last meeting with the Minister before the summer recess and schools break up for the summer. Schools come under pressure in September to hold a certain enrolment number to ensure they maintain their staffing levels for the following year. I ask that, in the new school year ahead, cognisance be given to that as it will be an issue for many schools.

To give the committee some figures, there are currently 17,393 Ukrainian children and 6,338 children in the international protection process attending schools in Ireland. The regional education and language team, REALT, co-ordinators contacted the beneficiary of temporary protection, BOTP, and IPAS centres in April and May to ensure families are aware they should apply for school transport by the 8 May deadline. The co-ordinators continue to support those families. Since 2022, the Department has been providing additional temporary special educational supports for schools enrolling students from Ukraine and with IPAS enrolments. The scheme was designed to ensure that children and young people continue to get their education in the most inclusive environment possible.

That is good to hear.

There are three issues of major concern to school principals and boards of management. The first has been going on forever, not just on the Minister's watch. Circulars seem to issue coming into holidays. The June holidays are coming up soon. Are there any circulars in the pipeline? Rather than issuing them a day or two before the holidays, maybe they could be issued earlier so that schools and boards can accommodate them.

The second issue is water charges, which were debated at this committee. It is futile in this day and age to charge schools for water when we are providing free schools meals, free books and so on. Some schools have fallen into arrears or have not paid the charges and some are getting threatening letters. However, Irish Water has said it will not cut schools off or prosecute them. Schools have accrued large arrears bills. In one of the committee's reports on school meals, we recommend that school water charges be dropped, which I know is not a matter for the Minister's Department, and that circulars be issued in a more timely manner.

Will the Minister comment on DEIS? DEIS plus is good and to be welcomed but, based on some of the commentary made when the Minister was last before the committee and in her opening statement today, DEIS plus seems to be the only game in town this year and probably will be next year. It seems there will not be DEIS band 1, DEIS band 2 and rural DEIS. Will the Minister indicate if that is the case? A lot of principals are hanging on with a hook, hoping their schools will be looked at based on their socio-economic profile across the next 12 months.

In relation to water charges, that is a matter for the Department of housing. Regarding school funding and capitation in general, we have increased the capitation. It is a priority. As part of the programme for Government, we are committed to increasing funding for schools to support them. My Department secured €39 million in budget 2026 for increased capitation grants for schools. That will see an increase in the standard capitation rates paid to schools of €50 per pupil for primary schools, from €224 to €274, and €20 per student for post-primary schools, from €386 to €406. Those increases will be effective from September. This will also allow for an increase of €20 in capitation rates for urban band 1 DEIS primary schools, increasing the mainstream pupil rate in these schools to €294.

Regarding circulars, there is a working group on communicating with schools. We have agreed on when these communications should issue, but I hear those concerns about the burden on schools.

The Cathaoirleach also raised DEIS. Part of the programme for Government commitment relates to DEIS plus. The cost of that programme for a full year is €48 million. We have never done more to tackle the greatest educational disadvantage among children in the country. I would like to do more in that area. That is not to say that there are not other schools or children who are experiencing educational disadvantage. I secured a budget and a programme for Government commitment around DEIS plus.

Are the more traditional forms of DEIS that we have all become accustomed to gone by the wayside now?

There has been no decision on that. The priority was the DEIS plus programme. That came about through consultation with schools in these areas which said they needed far more targeted supports around well-being. The 2022 expansion of the DEIS programme benefited 322 schools, at a cost of €32 million. The annual cost is now over €180 million, an increase of 20% in the past four years. DEIS supports-----

With the new criteria used for DEIS plus, which are more progressive, many schools are saying they fit those criteria or exceed them in comparison with a neighbouring school. Do such schools have grounds, not to appeal based on DEIS plus, but to seek DEIS band 1, DEIS band 2 or rural DEIS status?

A school has to have urban band 1 status to be eligible to potentially go into DEIS plus. There is a DEIS identification model. It is based on the data. We had discussions around lone parents, homes where there are high rates of unemployment and numbers of Traveller and Roma children. It is based on the enrolment of the primary schools through the primary online database, POD, system and post-primary online database, P-POD, system in second level schools. We have to go on the official data we have. I reiterate that there is incredible work being in done in other schools where there is disadvantage. We will be working with the Central Statistics Office and others to try to tweak that information.

I thank the Minister. I am sorry but I have to apply the same time rules to myself as I do to others. I welcome Deputy Callaghan to the committee. She is up next.

When I first walked into this committee, I thought it was a great committee because it has the Minister or Ministers of State present every week. I thank the Cathaoirleach for the warm welcome. I am delighted to be part of this committee.

I will start with the opening statement.

I was not aware that the International Monetary Fund recently examined Ireland's investment and outcomes in education from a value-for-money perspective. In its published report, the IMF found Ireland to be at, or close to, the frontier when it comes to public spending efficiency. That struck me and it should be highlighted more.

What progress is being made on the proposed redeployment scheme for SNAs? Is that a focus of attention? I know there was a lot of attention on that last year, or maybe earlier this year - it at all morphs into one. The Minister and I have spoken about this issue before. While I understand the security that the redeployment scheme will offer SNAs, in her deliberations about how it will be implemented I ask the Minister to consider the special role that special schools play, in particular substitute SNAs in special schools. I am thinking of a conversation I had during a visit to the School of the Holy Spirit in Kilkenny city. I believe the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, visited that school as well and he will have recognised the particular situation the principal, AnnMarie Butler, is in. She is concerned, as are other principals in special schools, that if redeployment proceeds, it will remove the autonomy principals of special schools have when a vacancy arises. The School of the Holy Spirit in Kilkenny has 12 long-term SNA substitutes who are on call all of the time. They do the same training that the permanent staff do. While on paper the role of an SNA in a special school might be the same as an SNA in a mainstream school, it can be very different. The long-term SNAs working in the School of the Holy Spirit in Kilkenny know the children. They can slot seamlessly into the school. If the redeployment scheme for SNAs mirrors that of the redeployment scheme for teachers, should a vacancy arise in a special school, the long-term SNA substitutes may not be considered for that position. It is a fear and concern that an SNA who has been made redundant or lost their job in another school could be parachuted in. Will the Minister comment on that?

I thank the Deputy for her questions. On funding, maybe we should have been clearer and I should have been even more vocal in relation to value for money. I never liked talking about that because when we are talking about education, it is about ensuring we are providing resources for our young people, students and children across the country. The IMF has found that we have world-class outcomes for average levels of investment. That comes back to our teachers, SNAs and school leadership, the principals and boards of management who do so much work. There is no evidence of financial mismanagement in the Department of Education and Youth. There is a huge amount of work being done in an area of huge demand. I want to continue to rise to that challenge and make sure we are providing resources.

In relation to the three documents around the SNA workforce development plan, this is a key priority for me and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan. Work is ongoing on the revised circular. As regards the redeployment scheme, a huge amount of work and engagement has happened on three areas. We have met 15 times over the last while. We have participated in dialogue with SNAs, Fórsa and education stakeholders. We know the importance of the role of the SNA, be it in a special school or in a special class in a mainstream school. We want to continue to support SNAs. The role has evolved in the years since 2014 and we want the new circular to reflect that. These three documents have been co-designed with SNAs and education stakeholders. That is why we need to ensure we get this right. Perhaps Ms Mannion will come in on the specific issue related to special schools.

The purpose of the redeployment scheme is that there will be a national panel for SNAs in standard posts within the National Council for Special Education, NCSE. That is critical because it allows experienced SNAs who may be in schools where children are longer in a special class, or may be in another school nearby, to take up posts. It is not intended that this redeployment scheme will pick up on temporary posts, such as maternity leave or sick leave for others. Special schools such as the one the Deputy spoke about will continue to be able to utilise SNAs for those roles. If, however, a permanent or full-time post comes up and there is an experienced SNA on a redeployment scheme, they would be eligible for the role.

The key part of this, and one of the things the Ministers have been very strong on, is that there would be training and support for those SNAs moving into those roles in special schools in order that they will have the skills and competencies to best support the children in those new roles. Sick leave and maternity leave - those short-term leaves that are currently being managed in the way the Deputy has described - will continue to be available to schools.

The long-term SNAs I am speaking about have been SNAs in the school I mentioned for five or six years, and in some cases up to ten years. The concern is exactly as Ms Mannion has expressed. While I appreciate Ms Mannion's comment on the training SNAs will receive and everything like that, the position of the SNA is that they are almost like a full-time staff member. The special school in question has, I think, 22 teachers and a large number of SNAs. There is always a requirement for substitute SNAs. What happens to those SNAs? There is huge concern. Is there any potential to have a parallel scheme for redeployment for special schools due to the special and specific nature of the service they provide?

If they are continuing to fill maternity leave and sick leave posts in those schools, they continue to be utilised as that. It is just that if a permanent person left a role-----

I understand that but it is not just that. It is not just maternity leave; it is also assault leave, sick leave and all of those. These schools need a constant supply of SNA substitutes.

I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and all of our witnesses here today. Yesterday, the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality, Deputy Norma Foley, launched the new autism protocol, which is very welcome, to enable people to get diagnosed quicker. It does not, however, do anything in terms of securing a place in a special class or in a special school. Therefore, it probably does very little to reduce the assessment of needs waiting list. Has the Minister already factored in to the budget at this time, or will she do so in the future, the need to improve that process and move away from the assessment of need or to somehow help parents to get their children access to a special class or a special school quicker?

The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, may wish to comment on this too. We want to be in a position where children can go to school and get access to the therapies and supports they need, be it through the class teacher or the special education teacher. The majority of our children with additional needs are getting supports in mainstream settings through the special education teacher, the class teacher or SNAs. We want to continue the training with them. We also have therapists in the schools. This is starting in our special schools where speech and language therapists, SLTs, and occupational therapists, OTs, are being rolled out and it will move into the mainstream schools.

To answer the Deputy's question on assessments of need, children do not need an assessment of need to have access to an SNA, for example. I accept the Deputy's point around the diagnosis for a special school. Ideally, we would like children to be able to attend school, be it a mainstream school or a special class, and get the supports they need. Part of this is the fact that nothing happens without huge consultation with education stakeholders on how we would do that, working with parents. At the end of the day, parents want their children to go to school. I would love to be in a situation where we are not talking about a special class or a special school and that children are just going to school and getting the supports they need. That is the vision I and the Minister of State have.

However, that will take time when it comes to schools' admissions policies. A system would need to be set up there in collaboration with and co-designed by education stakeholders, parents, advocacy groups and experts in this area. That is how we will get this right.

The perception is that access to specialised education is built on an AON and the need for the assessment. We are looking at how we can move beyond the AON for access to education, whether special class or special school. Any movement, as the Minister said, would have to be co-designed and carefully considered. It would have to have the faith of not just the school communities but, more importantly, the parents and the guardians that we are not withdrawing something but putting something in place that will give greater access to specialised education, therapies or any of the other supports children with additional needs have. There is a lot of thought and work going into how we can come to that end. The most important thing is that we have everybody on board, that they are satisfied with what we are replacing this with and the piece we will put in, that teachers, education partners are right across it and, more importantly, families have faith in it. It will take a bit of work to have a piece in place that we all can have faith in and the public can have faith in.

But that process has started.

Yes.

The Department is in consultation. Okay.

There was mention of therapies in schools, which is another brilliant initiative. Does the Department have an update on that? Where are we in that process? Does the Department have an idea as to when that will begin in mainstream schools?

We are starting with special schools. The NCSE is working on the recruitment of speech and language therapists and occupational therapists in our special schools. The start of that will be in place this coming September. There is recruitment ongoing in that regard. I know there are recruitment issues within the health sector as well because speech and language therapists and occupational therapists are in high demand but our colleague, the Minister for higher education, James Lawless, has provided extra places in third level and is providing more places this coming September for speech and language and occupational therapists, for example, as well as other professions. In addition, within our special schools and mainstream classes, we have positions that are placements for students doing a degree in occupational therapy or speech and language therapy, whereby they can get placements in our special schools. We are doing likewise with our teachers who are doing initial teacher training in order that they can do their teaching practice in a special school or a special class in a mainstream school. This is all about trying to increase the capacity within our schools. To answer the Deputy's question, we want the special schools done this year or next year. After that I hope to roll it out to mainstream schools, but it will be dependent on recruitment.

We will have a more concise second round of questions. I will go in the same order in which hands went up. I call Deputy Darren O'Rourke.

I raise the case of Gaelscoil na Ríthe in Dunshaughlin, County Meath - I have raised it with the Minister before - and the need for extra junior infants places for this September. Parents have been on an emotional rollercoaster. There has been ongoing discussions between parents, the school, local TDs, the Minister's colleagues, myself and the forward planning section in the Department. It has been incredibly slow and frustrating and difficult to get a sense of what exactly is happening. There is a need for a teacher and a need for additional space, modular or otherwise. I know the school community, the patron and the parents are more than willing to meet halfway and do everything they can. We are coming towards the end of the school year, and the Minister will appreciate that these parents do not know where to turn at this stage. I ask her to contact the forward planning section in the Department, to get an update from it - it has been busy on this issue - and to do everything she can. I am being explicit about this. This school community and these parents will do everything to make this happen for these kids. They deserve it. I am just asking for that type of commitment from the Minister as well.

I am very familiar with this issue and the Deputy has raised it before. I know the Minister, Helen McEntee, and other Oireachtas Members from the area have also raised it. As Deputy O'Rourke knows, there is a large demand in that catchment area in general. Dunshaughlin community school was sanctioned an extra junior infants class, which I know the Deputy is very aware of. In relation to Gaelscoil na Ríthe, there has been a huge amount of engagement between the Department and the school. I absolutely know the concerns and the frustration of parents. We hear that. There is a huge amount of work happening between the Department and the school. There has been intensive engagement. I do not know if Mr. Loftus wants to add any more to that, but I assure the Deputy of the urgency around this, the need for that continued engagement-----

You might have to chat to Mr. Loftus afterwards. Sorry, it is just the constraints of the meeting. You got lucky there, Mr. Loftus.

I call Deputy Jen Cummins.

It is all right, I have a question for Mr. Loftus now. First, does the structural deficit affect in any way the plan for school buildings in 2026 and 2027?

Second, I recently visited a school for students with severe emotional and behavioural and disability-related difficulties and they have a challenge with regard to funding, which I think has not necessarily been a top priority in any discussions we have had, but I am aware that it needs to be considered. I am really just raising it here as something I would like to discuss at a later stage, just to flag it.

I might let Mr. Loftus in on the €1.6 billion.

The structural deficit that has been the discussion here today relates to the current side. I am on the capital side. We have our €7.5 billion NDP envelope and earlier this year the Minister published the NDP sectoral investment plan and the first tranche of projects for roll-out. That is just part of the overall capital delivery. It would not directly affect the challenging enough construction sector environment for all sectors, but we are managing that, getting good roll-out and working things through. You can see the roll-out of projects to construction and to tender. Modular projects are an important part of our delivery as well. You can see the real successes in relation to special classes. They are being supported as necessary through our modular programme, but our overall emphasis is on maximising existing capacity.

I think the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, is familiar with-----

We talked about it earlier.

We had a brief discussion on it earlier. Maybe we could engage further on it offline to see if we can progress it. The Deputy mentioned the issues to me after the Topical Issue this morning. I would be quite willing to take it up with the team here and see what we can do.

I was just struck by the level of stress they are dealing with in the school. I just wanted to see if we can support them better because there are incredibly vulnerable students and staff working in that sector. They need to be supported.

On that, the Department engages with schools, particularly on the financial side of it and guidance and so on. Some of the schools we have engaged with would have got advices on different financial issues which have been very beneficial to the school authorities. It is important the Department has sight of that as soon as possible.

Just for the record, the School of the Holy Spirit has 32 SNAs and 12 long-term substitute SNAs, and they are not on maternity leave. They are there all the time. They are on call because there is a huge demand for subs. You might need to ring at 7 o'clock in the morning. The Minister knows how the sub network works. They are just very concerned about that. Maybe we can talk some more about that. Perhaps there is scope to have a special consideration for how special schools operate and the value that long-term substitute SNAs bring to the school environment and how they help it to work.

I have another question, if that is okay. It is about Saplings Special School in Carlow town. It is actually in Laois but it is right across Carlow and Laois. I ask for an update on the new building.

That is a special school that was funded through the Department of justice programme. There have been some issues in relation to getting that project over the line and completed, including some funding issues. We have had some engagement there and we are conscious of it being a special school, but there is a journey to be worked through in relation to that.

There was talk locally at the end of January, certainly on 30 January, that the resumption of the construction of Saplings was imminent but four months later the only action I have seen was that on 3 February the gate to the site was open. From Mr. Loftus's perspective and the knowledge he has, is construction due to resume imminently?

It is a project that was not planned or funded through the Department directly. It got funding through a different source and that is something the school worked directly on with the Department of justice. We are aware of it and are conscious of it being a special school. We are looking at what opportunities there might be to engage with them and support them.

Are plans in place at the moment for it to be resumed?

No. There is a journey to be worked through there because when there is a scenario where a building is not fully completed, there are quite a number of issues to be worked through.

I am next up on the speaking roster. Many schools feel that when it comes to building projects, they are receiving an incessant number of requests for additional information before they move on from one stage to the next. One principal recently said that he feels there is a chilling effect in operation. No one wants to kill off a building project. That is not a good look because when it is killed off, how is it resurrected? They feel that the ream of paperwork, including consultants' reports, that they keep having to come back to and send in is like a hamster wheel going no place.

There are schools like Gaelscoil Mhíchíl Cíosóg Inis, which the Minister met today, Cloonlara National School, Ennis Educate Together, Gaelscoil Uí Choimín in Kilrush, the secondary school in Spanish Point and Ballynacally National School. These are just some of the schools that I can list out. I spend every waking day writing parliamentary questions and letters assuring them that if they send this in, it might move them on the next phase. It does not. Given the budgetary hole in the Department, which has been plugged to some extent, are these schools the fall guys? Is there a chill effect? Are these projects not killed but just chilled?

In relation to the capital budget, we have that €7.5 billion budget for the NDP out until 2030, so there is no issue there around the capital funding. We announced the first tranche of schools to go to construction and tender this year and next year. I will ask Mr. Loftus to go through the details, but the Department will be engaging with schools around a new reprioritisation list. We do have to keep within a budget, which is €1.6 billion for this year and next year, and we could only choose a certain amount of schools that were ready to go to tender.

We have the €7.5 billion in the NDP envelope. We have to work through infrastructural guidelines to assess the projects. The paperwork is there not to stop a project but to make sure that what we are doing is appropriate, right, necessary and built to our design standards and requirements.

In 2026, we will have about 1,000 projects out at construction across the country through all of our various schemes between projects at construction coming into the year, climate projects and all of that. That is a testament to the quality of the forward planning done by the Department of education across the country. It is a testament to the delivery that is being done and the role that schools and our other delivery partners play in relation to that.

If schools are asked to submit something to move onto the next phase, they should move onto the next phase. A lot of schools just cannot see where this is ending up for them.

When projects complete a stage, there is an assessment done to see the priorities around that but, in terms of the infrastructural guidelines, it is to see whether the critical needs are still there or whether there been any changes in the enrolment. It is a bit like what the Cathaoirleach said in relation to pupils from Ukraine, for example, or whatever else. That might impact on the trajectory of a project as well.

I thank Mr. Loftus. That concludes our questions. Before I deal with the formalities, I sincerely thank the Minister, Deputy Naughton, the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and all of the officials for coming in. I am sorry that it has been a long evening for them. I thank the secretariat and the technical team. It has become a very long evening. It is just the way Wednesday evenings go with voting blocs. The interrupted divisions that happen in the Dáil fragment our meetings. We apologise to everyone who had an elongated evening here. When a previous Minister used to visit schools, she used to let the students off homework. Perhaps the Minister can let the staff off to have a lie-in tomorrow.

The Department of education will get into trouble again for letting people off.

I thank the members for hanging in here as well this evening. That concludes the select committee's business in public session for today. I thank the Minister, officials, members, technical team and secretariat.