As we have a quorum, we will go into public session. Apologies have been received from Senator Ruane. As usual, I ask members to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode.

I thank members for facilitating this early meeting. The purpose of the meeting is to have an engagement on the topic of Garda pursuits with a particular focus on the additional resources and training that may be required and related matters.

Members will be aware of a number of instances, particularly the horrendous crash on the M9 during the summer, which gave rise to serious and significant issues of public concern. It was in that light that the committee agreed to meet to discuss those issues with representatives of the members of An Garda Síochána in the first instance and with members of management of An Garda Síochána later in the afternoon. I welcome the following witnesses to this session: Mr. Ronan Slevin, general secretary of the Garda Representative Association, GRA, and Mr. Niall Hodgins, president; Mr. Ronan Clogher, general secretary, Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI; and Mr. Kevin Bolger, deputy general secretary, Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. The format of the meeting is that we will ask each of the organisations to make an opening statement of around three minutes and we will then invite members in the order in which they have indicated to put any questions they may have. We will allow an initial period of seven minutes for engagement. If time allows, we will have a second follow-up engagement.

Just before I invite our guests to make their opening statements, I have to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references that may be made to other people in witnesses' evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make changes against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I now invite representatives from the GRA and the AGSI to make their opening statements. Mr. Slevin is going to give the opening statement on behalf of the GRA.

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to appear before them today regarding Garda pursuits and training. While this has been a matter of extreme concern to our association for many years, the recent grave events on our roads and changes in the driving behaviour of certain individuals have made it all the more urgent. It is fair to state that this is a matter of life and death for all road users, the lives of our members and our fellow emergency workers and the safety of the wider public.

Today, we focus on what we know through the thousands of front-line members that we represent, namely the serious issues and concerns regarding the challenges faced by gardaí when responding to roads policing challenges such as: individuals engaging in serious, life-threatening criminal behaviour when behind the wheel of a vehicle, with a main focus on recent incidences involving people deliberately driving down the wrong side of roads and motorways into oncoming traffic and failing or refusing to stop when instructed to do so by gardaí; and incidents involving e-bikes and e-scooters.

This behaviour is not just a recent phenomenon, although, unfortunately, it appears to have taken an incredible tragedy and public outrage for it to come to the attention of the Government and Garda management. This has been a serious concern for many years, with incidents of brazen and deliberate contraflow driving dating back almost a decade. Recent figures released publicly show that recorded incidents of wrong-way driving are up 32% year on year, with seven incidents in a two-week period at the start of August alone. It is our understanding that these numbers may be even more chilling. Recent incidents on the M50 and the M9 have resulted in deaths of reckless drivers and their passengers and life-changing injuries to innocent drivers caught in the crossfire. Countless family members have suffered beyond comprehension, and the effects of the traumatic crash scenes encountered by gardaí and members of the emergency services have been catastrophic.

In June 2025, we were invited to appear before this committee. At that time, we raised our concerns about the lack of pursuit training and the potential risks to both the public, road users, and to our members. I would like to quote from our submission to this committee more than 14 months ago, which stated that the absence of a clear policy on pursuit "has led to confusion, apprehension and even a fear of discipline among our ranks as our members struggle to choose between doing what they believe is right, and what action they believe may follow their decision making." Sadly, little has changed in the intervening period. Most of our 11,800 members continue to go about their duties with the very basic driving training and on their own personal licences. Most of them last received in-person dedicated driver training in Templemore.

This means that many of this committee's members have the same driving qualification as us, that is, a basic driving licence to respond to routine, non-emergency situations. It is called a competency-based driving 1, CBD 1, assessment. To put this in context, CBD 2 training is required to be qualified to exceed localised speed limits and turn on blue lights and sirens in the vehicle. This takes a couple of weeks’ training to achieve. Should any of the above actions be done without the necessary training, the garda is in breach of Garda protocol and can face career-threatening discipline. Following CBD 2 training, drivers may be eligible to apply for CBD 3, which is for the use of high-powered vehicles, CBD 4 and up to CBD 5 to become a driving instructor, of which we have fewer than ten in this country. None of these levels includes pursuit training. Thousands of our members are not even qualified to turn on blue lights and sirens, and not one has been trained in pursuit driving.

Meanwhile, the numbers dedicated to assigned roads policing units have been depleted. Currently, approximately 650 members are attached to roads policing units. In 2009, a time of significantly less traffic and fewer road users, that figure was in excess of 1,000. Successive promises and measures to redress this deficit have simply failed to materialise.

What is a garda supposed to do when he or she receives an emergency call that a driver is deliberately driving in the wrong direction on roads and motorways in this country, or when a driver fails to comply with a Garda instruction to stop and pull over and is faced with what is known as a non-compliant hard stop? The official line is to radio into a command and control centre and await instruction. Too often, that instruction is to stand down, as the garda member is not sufficiently qualified to make that pursuit in a safe manner based on the location, road conditions and other specifics that can influence the decision. This is not just in the case of high-powered motor vehicles travelling at speed; it also includes motorcycles, e-bikes and e-scooters. Often, gardaí must make split-second career and liberty-threatening decisions based on the scenarios in which they find themselves caught up in.

What is the answer? The Garda Representative Association has been long calling for a dedicated, accelerated roll-out of driver training for all members of An Garda Síochána, as well as changes in the Garda code and legislation, to properly equip our members to be able to properly and safely police the roads. This training has been promised by both Garda management and the Minister. Real action, rather than media soundbites, is needed now. There have been no firm dates or timelines for the roll-out of such training, nor details of how it will be performed and executed or an assessment of how long this would take to complete.

In our submission filed to these proceedings, we at the GRA have set out a roadmap to some resolutions to these concerns and difficulties that our members face. Proper, urgent training is required, plus a clearly defined pursuit policy. We also urgently require legislative changes and changes to the Garda code that will adequately help equip and protect our members when faced with such reckless driver behaviour. For instance, we recommend: a clear and positive pursuit policy, which includes grades of seriousness; pursuit training, particularly in dealing with non-compliant drivers, in order that gardaí can follow this policy safely with necessary protections; legislative change in the threshold of blame and fault in order to have some protection for our members when they are simply trying to do their jobs; and a separate work licence so that members' personal licences are not at risk.

We also presented informed suggestions on how best to plan this roll-out of training using clear timelines. Today, we implore Garda management to provide assurances on dates of commencement and completion of this training so that front-line units can execute their duties to the very best of their abilities. We also suggest legislative change, including: harsher sentencing and bans for those caught deliberately driving up a street or road in the wrong direction; sentences for those who are willing passengers in these vehicles; lengthy driving bans against those perpetrators, which continue into their adult lives; making it an offence to upload such videos and more serious accountability for social media companies; and increased charges for failing to stop or remain at a scene.

I thank the committee for the time and consideration to invite us to appear before it today. We will gladly accept any questions members may have.

The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors thanks the committee for the invitation to attend and address the committee regarding the matter of Garda pursuits, along with the training and resource requirements surrounding same.

The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors is a conservative but progressive representative body comprising approximately 2,500 members of the mid-level supervisory ranks within the Garda organisation. The association is mandated to seek and pursue improvements to our members' terms and conditions of employment. However, at the beating heart of the association is the public interest, along with the provision of efficient and effective service delivery regarding all aspects of policing. That remains a core value and objective of its membership.

The significant problems surrounding the Garda pursuit policy were discussed on the previous occasion, in 2025, that the Garda representative bodies appeared before this committee. Sadly, the recent tragic events on the M9 motorway in the eastern region, in conjunction with the now regular incidents of contraflow driving on the M50 and surrounding motorway routes, have been the catalyst for a renewed focus on the increasingly brazen and dangerous criminal behaviour of certain individuals on our country's road network. In recent years, we have seen numerous examples of extremely dangerous and illegal driving by criminals attempting to evade capture by An Garda Síochána. However, the recent development of certain individuals driving contraflow or deliberately seeking Garda pursuits for the purpose of generating social media likes is a most sinister and frightening development. No words could describe the sense of panic and fright a law-abiding motorist must suddenly experience when confronted with a speeding car hurtling towards him or her on the wrong side of the motorway. The act of deliberately driving contraflow is an extremely reckless action and one of the most serious life-threatening forms of criminal behaviour committed on our road network.

An Garda Síochána has struggled to address the issue of pursuits over the past number of years. Successive Garda Commissioners and Ministers for justice have failed to provide adequate resources, training and legislative protections to members of An Garda Síochána to tackle this issue. In December 2025, Garda management published an updated pursuit policy for members of An Garda Síochána. The Garda associations participated in a consultation process, along with Garda management, surrounding the development of this policy, during which the AGSI highlighted fundamental issues and sought the inclusion of several protections for Garda drivers surrounding pursuits. Upon completion of that consultation process, the AGSI's concerns were disregarded and our proposed solutions were omitted from the current policy.

The AGSI recently submitted a detailed submission to this committee outlining those issues, which I will briefly summarise. On legal protection, increasing numbers of gardaí have been prosecuted in the courts under the Road Traffic Act for driving offences committed while conducting pursuit driving on duty. There is a lack of clarity, with a complete lack of definitive guidance around pursuit driving. There is a transfer of corporate risk exposure from the Garda organisation to individual Garda members. Risk exposure transfer is achieved by utilising interpretative models such as the Garda decision-making model and dynamic risk assessment. No training of any nature has been provided on spontaneous pursuit or the policies surrounding same. Policies do not address hard-stop scenarios or contraflow scenarios.

Resources are another issue. The failure of Garda management to recognise or address recruitment and retention has now resulted in completely inadequate numbers of Garda resources, which, in conjunction with population increases, has corroded the service delivery capability of the organisation. This is particularly evident in roads policing. The lack of high levels of visible roads policing inevitably leads to a deterioration in driver behaviour, as evidenced by the increase of late in road deaths.

The AGSI is of the view that the greatest obstacle to tackling the problems surrounding Garda pursuits is a cultural issue to do with risk aversion within the Garda organisation. The failure to accept any level of corporate risk surrounding this issue will ultimately create a further digression in the organisation's ability to effectively tackle this issue. Despite numerous media announcements by the Garda Commissioner surrounding the delivery of training and legal protections, the most recent at the AGSI conference on 31 March 2026, where the Garda Commissioner spoke about increasing legal thresholds for members, we have seen absolutely no delivery on those promises.

The AGSI, as part of its earlier submission, outlined a detailed list of solutions to address the pursuit problem. Those solutions centre around legal protections, contraflow indemnity, emergency service driving licences, safeguards regarding members' private insurance policies, practical training delivery, realistic and viable policy and procedures to stop vehicles, recognition and ownership of risk, equipment, and education, including education in schools programmes.

In order to subdue the overarching belief among members of An Garda Síochána that in the absence of the appropriate legal protections they will be thrown to the wolves by the Garda organisation for conducting their duty, and also to restore confidence among the membership that they will be supported by the organisation in conducting their duty, immediate, tangible, robust and measurable action is required by Garda management.

I again thank the Chairperson and other committee members for the invitation to appear here today and I welcome any questions they may have.

I thank Mr. Clogher. I remind members that we have representatives of Garda management coming in as well. I propose that we limit rounds of questions to five minutes, if that is agreed. I will ask members to stick to that. We will begin with Deputy Brabazon, followed by Deputy Ward.

I thank the representatives of the AGSI and the GRA for their very frank and honest presentations this afternoon. I can feel the frustration from both organisations in respect of this issue. I can certainly empathise with it. As a constituency politician, I see these issues unfold on the streets in my constituency of Dublin Bay North on a daily basis. It is utterly frustrating that our police force finds itself unable to police the roads in an effective manner. That is not a criticism; it is just the circumstances that we find ourselves in and it is very frustrating.

Rather than make a speech, I want to ask a number of questions on it. Mr. Slevin mentioned that many gardaí did not have pursuit training. How many have training?

There is no such thing as pursuit training in An Garda Síochána.

How many people are trained to operate blue lights?

Anybody who has completed a course that is called CBD 2 onwards can activate blue lights and sirens. The normal everyday person who has not got that - they number in the thousands - must drive within the speed limit. They are not allowed to turn on blue lights and sirens while the vehicle is moving. They may activate it when the car is stopped doing a checkpoint. Other than that, they are not allowed.

In the wake of the M9 incident, the Garda Commissioner mentioned that actions such as contraflow driving, for example, were being undertaken for social media likes. Is there any engagement by An Garda Síochána with the social media companies?

That would be a question for the next guests coming in.

Mr. Slevin is not aware of any.

No.

What about the AGSI?

I know the Garda liaises with them regularly but I do not know what levels of co-operation are there.

Where videos of dangerous driving or Garda pursuits are posted online, is An Garda Síochána able to identify information from the social media companies about the individuals behind these accounts?

That would be a priority for an investigative basis. As with any form of social media or emails, there would be policies but it is not for us to answer how they would gather that or what level of information they would gather. As with any video, if there is something evidential within it, it will be gathered and utilised. As to proving it and how they get it in co-operation, our next guests would probably be better placed to answer that for the Deputy.

How many members of An Garda Síochána are currently being prosecuted for breaches of road traffic legislation arising from pursuits?

They are into double figures. One from my own division within the north inner city, in quite a highly publicised case, was prosecuted earlier this year. That is subject to appeal in November. However, it further indicates what we alluded to in the open statement about what we would perceive to be a bar not being reached with regard to when a direction to a prosecution comes. I am not particularly referencing that case alone but we would have anecdotal evidence that when someone's occupation is garda on a covering report going over to a particular office that directs prosecutions, a particular bar may not be reached and a decision is made that the courts may decide upon that.

In addition, there is evidence that gardaí are prosecuted for entirely summary offences, those are, offences that can only be dealt with in the District Court, for instance, driving without due care and attention. The Chief State Solicitor's Office has decided to engage expertise - special expertise or higher expertise - in pursuing a member of An Garda Síochána by employing the services of a junior counsel. I am 33 years prosecuting people. If I, as an investigating garda, at the suit of the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, sought the representation of a junior counsel to pursue an entirely summary matter, I would not get anywhere close to getting a junior counsel to prosecute any other citizen of the State. What I am trying to do is shine a light on how gardaí are being treated differently before the courts when compared to other citizens.

I thank the witnesses for a really interesting presentation on what is actually happening on the ground for gardaí. It should not take a tragedy to see a response like this. It should not take a tragedy to see the political response that we are seeing here today. I know the recent incidents on the M50 and the M9 have highlighted this and brought it into the public domain. Anybody who drives the wrong way on a road, a motorway or anywhere at all and endangers other people should have no place in society. They should have to take the full weight of the law, whatever that may be.

I am very interested in the reference to the consultation process on the pursuit policy that happened in 2025. The witnesses feel that their members' input was disregarded and omitted from the current pursuit policy. Can the witnesses provide feedback on that? The ordinary members of the Garda are the ones who are going to be asked to pursue these criminals, yet their opinion seems to be omitted from the consultation for the report. I would be interested in getting some feedback on that.

I will outline what the AGSI looked for on that. At that time, when the consultation started about two years ago, there was contraflow driving and it was publicly widespread in the media. We looked for an indemnity for Garda drivers so that, should they have to drive contraflow, particularly on the M50, they would not be prosecuted. We also looked for an indemnity from Garda misconduct so that, should they decide not to drive there because it was too dangerous, they would not be subject to conduct regulations for not following the vehicle. You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you do not. People talk all the time about thresholds and levels of driving, but when a spontaneous pursuit starts - maybe someone drives away or turns away from them - the garda does not actually know what the incident is. The person could be after committing a murder, or it could be that they have no insurance. If a garda drove contraflow down the M50 after someone and it turned out they had no insurance, and something happened, we would be very concentrated on the level of risk. That risk immediately moves to the individual garda when something happens. The Garda organisation is not willing to accept any risk whatsoever here. However, if it turned out that it was someone who had committed a murder and there was a capture, that would meet the threshold. How does a garda decide what the threshold is when a pursuit starts, given they do not even know why that pursuit is starting a lot of the time?

That was one of the things. The other issue was the driving licence. In general, gardaí in their duty have to break the speed limit. They often have to pull in people and they have to make certain manoeuvres, and the job could not exist without those exemptions. However, what we have seen over the last couple of years is gardaí on national and regional roads being prosecuted for offences that have occurred. Our position is this: why should carrying out their duty affect their private driving licences or their private insurance premiums? This applies to gardaí in particular because they have to break the road traffic laws to conduct their duty. They should have an emergency service driving licence and should have an exemption so it cannot interfere with their private insurance policies.

Both of those suggestions were ignored. Who ignored those suggestions to change the current policy?

This consultation would have been Garda management.

The gardaí are the guys on the thin blue line as we call it and at the front, so whose input was put into this policy?

If you look at this policy and the objective of the spontaneous pursuits policy, the first objective is to provide direction to Garda personnel who in the course of their duties engage in the use of pursuit tactics and pursuit management to reduce the risk associated with pursuits and stopping of subject vehicles. When you look at even the public-facing policy, it gives absolutely no direction on how to conduct a pursuit. It is back to the risk. The organisation has offloaded the risk onto the individual. The garda goes out and does his or her job and it is all great if it works out but things happen in these environments. Another line in that policy, when we speak about thresholds, states that Garda vehicles should not pursue vehicles unless it is safe to do so. It is never safe to pursue. That is the starting point of the thresholds. That is why we are quite concerned about thresholds and we need to be talking about indemnities.

The witnesses are concerned that because this policy is opaque, if they do anything outside that policy, their members will be pursued on that.

I will come in here if Deputy Ward does not mind.

Be as brief as you can.

We have a bigger concern about control room staff. Sergeants and inspectors running the control rooms ultimately have to make the decisions to stand down these pursuits. They are not trained in pursuit training. They may have some level of serious incident control but they are relying on what people on the ground are saying. They are not trained to a higher level. That is also what we were looking for. These are the people that Fiosrú and its likes may come looking at, because of their decision-making.

Thank you. Again, I am sorry for forcing the meeting along.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. Unfortunately, here we are again, within a matter of a year. Mr. Slevin stated that over a long period, he has been looking for pursuit training and different things from Garda management. Looking through the opening statement they all seem quite logical and commonsensical to me, not only to protect his members but also the general public. Why have these not been taken on board and implemented? What have been the barriers and what have they told Mr. Slevin? That is my first question.

On the number of people who are trained, there is an issue of resources in the number of instructors we have trained. To deliver training, we have the issue of there not being enough resources in An Garda Síochána as it stands. As the Deputy knows, we have been on record saying that our force has had the same amount of manpower for almost the past eight years while our population has increased by three quarters of a million. There is not the facility to allow Garda members to go to Templemore to train, as there used to be. There is the question of resources in respect of covering those members while they get training. There is then the issue of there not being enough instructors to administer that training. An example is that the pursuit policy was introduced without anybody being trained in pursuit or even a course being designed in pursuit training. Yet, we have a policy that governs pursuit. It is illogical in itself.

I can say, covering that particular point, that the Minister and Commissioner are on record saying they will now accede to our requests and administer training. It is about the quality of that training, what it actually covers and the timeline in which it can be delivered. There is no point telling us they are going to give training unless they give a defined timeline as to when this will happen. We understand you are not going to train a Garda force over a month or two. This is a 24-month project at least. However, the training that will be administered has to be sufficient for the task it is designed to cover, which is pursuit driving and following people. At times it can result in the threshold being adapted when members are involved in incidents. As was said earlier, we are assessed the same as the Deputy or me, if I were not working as a garda, if we ran a red light. If I go through a red light with blue lights and sirens I can do so with training and at slow speed but if a person comes from the side and hits me I can still be prosecuted and disqualified from driving for two years, even though I have blue lights and sirens on. The threshold has to be addressed as well, so there are lots of issues there that have to be covered.

My second question relates to videos being posted online. What course of action does Garda management take to protect Garda members against any backlash or harassment they might find themselves facing as a result of being caught in the middle in the course of their duties? In general, is Garda management failing in its duty of care towards members?

It is interesting that the Deputy references this issue because we discussed social media here on the previous occasion. The AGSI raised the issue as its number one priority with the Garda Commissioner when he took office last September. We have seen no action or delivery on that. We sought the establishment of a task force in Garda headquarters in order that when this happens, there would be a contact point and people with expertise to liaise with the social media companies to get things taken down and to advise and provide guidance and support to the member concerned. The AGSI has been highlighting this for four or five years. We feel that one of the biggest impediments to recruitment to An Garda Síochána is the abuse Garda members take on social media. We have seen no delivery whatsoever on that. It is very disappointing.

Is Garda management failing in its duty of care to its members?

Absolutely.

I thank Mr. Clogher.

I welcome all of our guests. It is kind of incredible when you think about how we got here. This may be a question for our next guests, but how did we get here? It is incredible. The GRA made a statement earlier that stuck in my head. We put in place a pursuit policy even though we had no one trained in pursuit. That is laughable. It is absolutely laughable. I will not get into individual cases but I have huge sympathy for some of the gardaí who have been prosecuted. I know of one garda, whose case I spoke about because he had not been charged yet. He found out from the coroner. It is a well-known case. I look forward to that court case because the situation has been going on for a long time and needs to be dealt with.

Three things need to happen here and they all need to happen pretty quickly. First, legislation needs to be changed. It should be based on the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 in Britain, which introduced a different standard for certain people who are trained to drive at a different level. That should happen here as well. People who are trained to a certain standard should be judged by that standard. A policy and regulations should be brought in with that. If there are bad eggs, there are bad eggs. However, 99% of the time gardaí will act according to their standards.

Second, we need training. It is embarrassing that we are sending people to Devon for training or getting people from Devon to come to Templemore in my county to provide training. We bought 256 acres in Clonmore for €5.5 million 20 years ago. It is sitting there doing nothing. It could easily have been turned into an area for this type of training and a lot more. It is embarrassing. Third, we obviously need resources, namely cars, equipment and everything else.

Is there anything else we need outside of legislation, with regulations and a policy, training and a place to carry out that training, and resources? I will ask that question of the GRA first and then the AGSI.

The Deputy has covered most of it. We also need protection for our members. I suppose that would also be legislation. The legislation should not just cover the assessment of an alleged offence by a member of An Garda Síochána when involved in an incident. The legislation in relation to the offenders definitely has to be changed as well. It should cover people allowing themselves to be carried in a stolen vehicle or willingly participating. Where seven or eight people get into a car, it cannot be the case that the driver alone is held responsible. Legislative changes along those lines are needed.

Resources are not just a matter for the roads policing unit. The training of tactical pursuit and containment, TPAC, drivers and giving us better equipment has to be looked at as well because with family saloons, even if they are new Škoda Kodiaqs or whatever they are, when you are performing response driving, you have to slow in certain situations to allow a dangerous overtake to proceed. You cannot proceed yourself. You have to wait for an opportunity to do it safely. There is no point in giving us a family saloon car, no matter how big it is, because the amount of power that is required for that driver and the time to catch back up to the offending vehicle - that has to be instantaneous in terms of the horsepower of vehicles that are being given to gardaí.

Obviously, there is then the issue of resources in An Garda Síochána itself. We have serious problems. In all honesty, there are probably vacancies for 3,000 gardaí as it stands at the moment. There are 14,500 gardaí and we have had that since 2018. As I said, our population has increased by 750,000. While the numbers are only creeping up by the hundreds, we are still suffering serious issues because of resignations and retirements, which are becoming more and more prevalent as we go along. There will be serious problems as we go along and I do not see how we will get over that unless there are some serious changes made to Government policy.

I have mentioned it already but the way the Garda approaches writing policies has to change. The pursuit policy, as it was issued last December, moves that risk over to the individual. The organisation is happy to do that. If a garda on duty is in a crash, he or she is on their own. The organisation abandons them. That is a cultural problem and it is a major problem. The organisation is utilising the decision-making model and dynamic risk assessments to move that risk over. Yes, there will always be a decision to make in a pursuit. Everyone accepts that. However, the organisation removes any blame and it has to accept some sort of risk in a high risk environment like pursuit driving.

This is my last question. We train the trainers and the whole thing going on with Devon ends up wherever it ends up. In the long term, where will this training take place? Does anyone know before I ask the next guest?

It will have to take place in the Garda training college in Templemore but it will require extra instructors to administer that training.

In what space, though? Where?

On the public road. The training has to be in a live environment. If a training-----

Are there simulators involved in this?

No.

It is all live?

Yes but if you are talking about a situation where you are training drivers for pursuit driving, these are already Garda drivers who have completed the CBD 2 driving in the live environment. It is a further enhancement of those skills with more training.

It has to be on public roads. That makes sense.

It has to be in a live environment.

I thank our witnesses for their opening statements. Have either of the organisations read the opening statement from Garda management that will be delivered to us shortly? I will just read a segment, that states, An Garda Síochána introduced a policy on simultaneous pursuits in December-----

I will just say to the Deputy that opening statement has not been read into the record, as of yet.

Has it not? Okay, I will not read that. Basically, we will be informed shortly that operational guidance was introduced in December 2024. The new policy facilitated enhanced collaboration with regional control centres and in essence, upskilled their people in relation to the management of spontaneous pursuits. Would the witnesses agree that was what took place?

That is the point I was making. Those words are about the control room supervisors. There is some level of training but that is not just for pursuits; it is also for firearms incidents. It is a serious incident controller scenario. No one in that room knows about pursuits either. There has been no training in pursuits. There is no training for pursuit and whatever the comments being made around the country today, we are not aware of any pursuit training.

The comments will say there was upskilling of people in relation to the management of spontaneous pursuits. Is that is not the case? Okay. From either of the organisations, how many of their members do they anticipate will take part in Garda pursuit training by the end of this year?

It is highly unlikely that any members will take it. Instructors will probably be trained by the end of the year and it will move out to the wider membership during the year. There are not a lot of Garda instructors so we do not see big numbers being trained in 2027. We will be moving into 2028 and 2029 before-----

Will we see any numbers in 2027? The reason I ask is because there seems to be some contradiction. In July of this year, we had the Garda Commissioner in front of us who did say there would be no Garda pursuit training in 2026.

That subsequently changed 33 days later in the aftermath of the M9 tragedy to the point where there will now be Garda pursuit training this year. Do the witnesses anticipate any of their members receiving pursuit training in 2026?

Honestly, I think that is highly unlikely in light of our responsibilities in respect of the EU Presidency and the policing thereof, which is intense, to say the least, until the end of this year.

It is important Deputy Gannon is aware that we find out a lot of this stuff about training through the media. We have been informed of nothing officially by Garda management as to the training.

There has been no consultation process about what anyone is saying.

Regardless of whether we were aware, we did suspect and we are trying to establish, through asking questions, the truth of the matter. I find it shocking that an announcement such as this would be made without any engagement with the witnesses. I suppose this leads to a question that is not entirely unrelated. Some of the commentary in the opening statements was incredibly strong, honest and frank. The GRA stated:

This behaviour is not just a recent phenomenon, although, unfortunately, it appears to have taken an incredible tragedy and public outrage for it to come to the attention of the Government and Garda management.

That is an incredible line. Would the witnesses like to expand on it? Would the AGSI like to expand on the idea that its members are being thrown to the wolves?

We are very strong on this point about risk. Garda management is putting all of the risk on individual gardaí. Those gardaí go out and do their job, and they are thrown to the wolves. They are left there if something goes wrong. You are a great person if it goes right. If it goes wrong, however, you are abandoned.

I might come back to Mr. Clogher on that. Would the GRA like to comment?

I go back to why people join the Garda. Essentially, it is because they want to help people. There is a moral sense of service to their community. This prevails when they go on duty. We have a ridiculous situation whereby if, God forbid, there is a child abduction, as I have said before, Garda management will want gardaí to pursue the car involved, so they will be authorised to do so. As I have said before publicly, however, if anything goes wrong, and we have said it here many times, they are on their own.

According to the understanding of the representatives of those on the front line, they do not anticipate a scenario in which any of their members will be trained, or will even begin training, in pursuit by the end of 2026.

No.

What sort of timeframe would the witnesses suggest as to when we will have some gardaí trained in pursuit to the appropriate level? Would it be mid-2027?

Not substantial numbers by mid-2027. We are talking 2028 or 2029. We are talking years.

It depends on what training programme is brought forward. I understand that there may be two sections to any proposed pursuit training. This would require members trained in the first tranche being successful and then being brought back for the next one. Yet again, we go back to resources and the ability to cover those members on the front line to allow them to get training. There is also the issue that we do not have any instructors who are trained. The latter must first achieve a higher level before we can even begin training.

If the committee will indulge me for one moment, the knock-on effect of this is that while the pursuit training is happening all of the people who have not yet been trained to drive are sitting in the wings without training. There is a continuous snowball effect because we in An Garda Síochána are consistently chasing our tails when it comes to training.

On a point of information, no Garda driver is reassessed during their career as a driver. Their initial training is the only training they receive unless they are lucky enough to be selected for a higher qualification training session. I have done motorbike, car, jeep, truck and personnel carrier training and I have never been retrained in any of them during my career. Once gardaí complete training, which could be in the first three years, it is the only training they get.

I find that incredible, given the announcement today, in the aftermath of the M9 incident, whereby the Minister said that training will begin and that he will engage with the Commissioner. As of yet, however, nobody has engaged with the witnesses.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and offering such stark commentary about where they and the members of their organisations find themselves.

I would like to strip that back a tiny bit because we can get, not carried away, but when we are speaking about members of An Garda Síochána, we often think about the blue uniform and forget - it is important for the public record that we remind everyone sitting in this room - that we are talking about mothers and fathers and often husbands and wives who are going out to do their duty. I use that term for anyone who puts on a uniform to go to work. They are doing a duty to the State. It is important we remember that first and think about the individuals.

I am a TD for Carlow and I am thinking about the individuals in my county who dealt with what happened on the M9, which had a huge impact on my county. I have spoken to some members of An Garda Síochána who attended the scene. People in Carlow want to know that lessons are being learned and action is being taken. I take my position on this committee seriously. The witnesses have not held back in any way, shape or form, but I assure them that if they inform the committee about what their members need to be able to do their job correctly, fully and safely and to be supported and not thrown to the wolves - please let us know - collectively we will do everything we can to support them.

Getting back to the questions being asked today, I would like to know when the conversation about pursuit training among the witnesses' members started? What was happening? Was there much of a discussion, for example, five years ago? What has changed between then and now?

We are currently in the process of moving out of our quarters in Phibsborough. Our lease is up so we are doing a clear-out and I happened to come across one of our magazines with the headline "Blues and Twos Training Needed". Blues and twos are the sirens and the date is July-August 2008. I thought it prudent to bring a copy of that magazine here. That is the type of thing that is going on in our organisation with training in general but, specifically with what we are talking about today, I thought it appropriate to bring a copy of that. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.

It does. I wonder then what is different in the escalation of the type of training required since 2008 and the different challenges members of An Garda Síochána face in pursuits.

The magazine alludes to a policy change from our pursuits to a more health and safety approach dealing with the types of scenarios that existed previously, in the 2000s and 2010s with regards to armed robberies and terrorist offences, for example. We have also had the child rescue Ireland, CRI, alerts and child abduction. An Garda Síochána moved more towards a health and safety approach and the CBD1 to CBD5 was born out of that during that time. Then there was what happened in 2009. We all know that in every organisation training is probably one of the first things to go when faced with any kind of fiscal challenges and I would suggest it never resumed after that.

There is very little in-person training in An Garda Síochána in general. The majority of members would be lucky to receive two days of in-person training in a year.

Is there a space for technology in Garda training, perhaps not for CBD5, 6 or 7, as was mentioned for pursuit training, but for the more basic ones, for the members the witnesses mentioned who cannot turn on the blue lights? Can simulator training not be used for this? Airline pilots use it to keep themselves current.

When the Garda Commissioner was before the committee on 14 July 2026, I asked him directly, if the Government could provide funding to help with pursuit training and the onslaught of e-scooters and scramblers, where the funding would go and he said that funding has never been an issue.

He said the Minister and the Department had always given the Garda funding when it had needed it. I recognise that the witnesses are saying there is a challenge with resources, but the resources, according to the Garda Commissioner last July, are not financial resources, so why not look at getting a simulator into Templemore and starting that training there? It would save time. That is not to say the Garda should not also, in tandem, have a facility like the one Deputy Kelly mentioned in order that gardaí could then go on-road, but the GRA's and the AGSI's members would have an awful lot of experience first.

I ask one of our guests to answer that as briefly as he can, please.

As regards simulators in relation to firearms training and other elements of training, everything can be looked at but it will still take time and resources. As Mr. Slevin highlighted several times, the backfill when you send people on training is a major problem. This all goes back to the failure to recognise that we have a resources problem. We have a Minister and a Garda Commissioner who say we do not have a problem with resources. Until you recognise a problem, you cannot fix it.

Does Mr. Clogher think they are just looking at-----

No, I am-----

-----financial resources and forgetting to look at the people?

We will have to move on.

We have been in here several times and we have highlighted several times that there is an issue with Garda resources. The optimal number, because of the population, should be 18,000. We are nowhere near it. The reality is that we have not a hope of making that in the next ten years and-----

Thank you. I have Senator Rabbitte, followed by Deputy Dolan.

I thank both organisations for being here. It is unfortunate that we are here having this conversation on the back of such significant tragedy. I think the reason there was such an outpouring was that everybody could put themselves in those shoes. I could see myself putting my three kids into the car and travelling to Dublin to get an early-morning flight. I think people could really relate. They have often done likewise, and I think that was where the outpouring of upset and the lack of understanding of how the system functions came from.

I have heard all the questions and I do not wish to repeat anything, but if I were watching in this evening, I would want to know, if I go to Dublin tomorrow morning, leaving Galway at 4 o'clock in the morning to try to get that 7 o'clock flight or 8 o'clock flight, could that happen to me. Have the lessons been learned within the past month to prevent it from happening? That is a fair question for any mammy or daddy putting their kids into the car to ask.

Yes, it can happen to you. Lessons are learned, maybe, but the lessons are not being learned by the people committing the offences, unfortunately. Unfortunately, it is not just driving; it is criminality along with it. We have mentioned social media, including tweets, but, logistically, I do not think any training can be designed or delivered that will deal with a person driving against traffic on a motorway. You are really talking about having enough resources, cars and equipment, including stingers, and trying to stop that vehicle before it gets to the motorway to do that. In honesty, it is a very dangerous task even contemplating going against the flow of traffic, even trying to warn oncoming traffic, because you are putting at risk not only the public but also yourself and your colleagues. Yes, it could happen tomorrow morning, unfortunately.

I hear us talking about training, pursuits and everything else like that, but what else is being talked about? If these lads - or ladies - are acting in such a way that they could go the wrong way down a motorway, is there a red alert or a mechanism that triggers something? Have we looked into anything like that? Have the associations given proposals to Garda management? I am sure the witnesses are all smart guys, and the associations have loads of members who would make suggestions as to whether there are teeth that can come up if a car goes the wrong way down a road or whether there is one bollard and a second bollard that can come out to stall or to prevent.

There is a lot of technology that could be utilised, but some of these vehicles actually travel in the correct direction on the motorway and then turn around, so what is available to you is limited. It is a phenomenon that has to be addressed. It may be that legislation has to change or sentencing has to change such that you discourage people by ensuring that anyone who is caught doing this is penalised-----

Heavily.

Exactly.

That goes back to Deputy Kelly's comments on legislation that needed to come forward.

I genuinely believe that we need to get into heavy sentencing. People caught committing this crime or causing a catastrophic effect have to know that there is a severe penalty and that when they go into the courts they will be going behind bars.

It would need to be changed from a road traffic offence, which is what a lot of these are, to a crime.

Right. Tell us about it.

It has to become a criminal offence that carries a mandatory five-year sentence or something along those lines, whatever it might be. I am not a legislator and it is not for me to say that. Currently, a lot of these offences are road traffic offences. There is a dangerous driving offence, for example, and people might get a small fine and a disqualification. It could be at District Court level where some of these offences are dealt with.

We need to get into the schools. There needs to be strong legislation. From a very young age and right up to adulthood, it needs to be drilled into people that it will now be a crime if they do this when they are driving e-scooters, cars, trucks or whatever it may be. They need to know it will not be a road traffic offence but a crime. It is a crime, and they are not going to get a fixed charge notice, FCN, for it and the Probation Act.

There is a facility in terms of reckless endangerment, but it is more so for the driver of the vehicle.

Mr. Slevin mentioned that.

As I said earlier, seven or eight people are getting into a car. They are all encouraging each other and they are all part and parcel of anything that emanates from that. Perhaps there are other parts of the legislation we could look at. If a person engages in a non-compliant stop or, in other words, fails to stop for the Garda, any offence that emanates from any pursuit should be the responsibility of that person and whoever is in the vehicle with him. Additionally, there has to be legislative change for a higher threshold for members of An Garda Síochána, so that if they do engage in pursuits in an attempt to bring that pursuit to a halt as quickly as they can for the safety of themselves and the public and if that endeavour involves contact, there should be a much higher threshold than is there now. This is because, unfortunately, members of An Garda Síochána are not doing that.

That is a problem because we do not have the indemnity in place to support them. I have heard that.

It is a huge problem. We have had the examples of where it has happened. As my colleague mentioned, we have a member - his own colleague - in the inner city who is awaiting prosecution arising from another incident. We have members who have been prosecuted or who are waiting for prosecutions all throughout the country in relation to driving offences committed while performing their duty. We are not looking for complete indemnity from anybody. Obviously, if someone has done wrong, they have to answer for that, but there has to be a higher threshold.

I thank Mr. Slevin. I call Deputy Dolan.

I thank the representatives from the Garda Representative Association for being with us today. Everyone has highlighted how devastating the scenes that unfolded were, and not just for those involved but for everyone who saw this and could relate to what happened. I am not going to go back over some of the points raised, but one key point spoken about concerned gardaí being sort of left to defend themselves should something go wrong. It was said that if the knowledge is there that a certain crime has taken place or is suspected to have taken place, senior management would authorise a pursuit. Is that correct?

It is up to the control room and at present that generally would be a sergeant or an inspector in there, to authorise the pursuit. They can also say to disregard and abandon the pursuit. The point that was made, though, is that it is very difficult when a pursuit starts to know why that person is absconding. That is the issue.

Yes. That authorisation comes from the control room based on the information available at that point.

Yes.

Is that authorisation recorded in these instances?

It will all be recorded on the radio.

Is all of the radio communication recorded?

Yes.

Okay. Why, then, does a garda get abandoned after that point if something goes wrong? I am asking this question because we all know that gardaí will get the pat on the back if they manage to stop somebody, catch somebody or something goes right. It will all be grand and without any need to worry about insurance. It is like all the community organisations all of us deal with. They all want to get on with economic projects and do things, but we have to pause and ask the question as to what will happen if something goes wrong.

In this case, the two-way authorisation can come through on the radio to tell gardaí they have authorisation to pursue. According to what the witnesses have said today, none of the gardaí behind the wheel have the training to go and pursue. Some gardaí do have CBD 2 training, which means that they can turn on the lights. What else can they do with that training?

It is response driving.

This means they can react to a situation and move at speed. That does not, though, necessarily mean they are able to pursue, ram a vehicle off the road or something like that.

Containment, nothing.

I just wanted to get to the bottom of that. Why is a garda abandoned when something goes wrong, even though they had authorisation?

That goes back to the policy. In the policy they utilise are the Garda decision-making model and the dynamic risk assessment that we referenced earlier. It all goes in on the garda that if something happens, he or she is wrong.

If I am a garda and I get authorisation and decide that I have duty and am going to go after a car but I then pause and think of my family and my loved ones and decide that I am not going to chase that car down the motorway or anywhere else, what happens?

The problem is that the supervisor authorises it. A supervisor in a control room could be 100 km away from where this pursuit is taking place. They are not going to be rushing to authorise a pursuit until they are fully satisfied about it. That is just natural; it is self-preservation. The supervisor in that control room could also find themselves the subject of a complaint to Fiosrú and have an allegation of misconduct made against them.

Where is that complaint coming from? Is it coming from the garda because they were left high and dry or is it coming from somebody on the other side?

If there was a complaint against a garda, it would be expanded to include the supervisor. It is quite regular that a complaint against an individual garda would be expanded to include a lack of supervision. If the garda decided to withdraw from the pursuit, it might be okay and the car might go on, but what if something really serious happened? We would then have an investigation as to how the Garda let this person go.

Was it a dereliction of duty?

I thank the witnesses for providing clarity on that. Over the years, there have been special units in the Garda that have had different functions, whether it involved chasing people around the country or chasing known gangs. They had souped-up cars to chase people. Did they have more advanced training than CBD 2?

They may have more advanced training. They could be CBD 3 drivers, but they are not trained in pursuit driving. They have not done----

They were actively pursuing people, whether it was in respect of copper wire or whatever that had been stolen. They were going around the country trying to chase it down.

They have not completed non-compliant driving or stops driving, because there is none. They may have done some form of training that will enhance their requirements within their specialised unit, but that is something that was designed and that is not actually a designed training course within An Garda Síochána as such.

I thank the witnesses for their time.

We have a guest at the meeting, namely Deputy Michael Murphy. I will allow him in briefly. Before that, I have a couple of questions.

I agree with other members that the evidence both associations have brought before the committee is stark. We have a public safety emergency in many respects. As has been said, the incident on the M9 during the summer set out in very clear terms the potential consequences of having people use our roads with abandon, with zero respect for the law or for their lives or the lives of others. We have got to that point for a number of reasons. One of them has to be the fact that we have seen a 40% reduction in the number of roads policing units since 2009. The witnesses' organisations, and I will give them credit for this, have repeatedly pointed out the deficiencies regarding pursuit training specifically. Those warnings have gone completely unheeded. It was mentioned that there are thousands of Garda members who do not have any training whatsoever, even in respect of the use of blue lights. Would there be any members of roads policing units who would not have that level of training? Is it fair to say that they would all have it?

I understand they all have CBD 2 driving.

It was an issue years ago. It is one of the requirements now that they must complete CBD 2 driving in order to be allocated to the units.

What portion would have training beyond that?

Less than 1%, I would say.

Within the roads policing?

It depends geographically as well. In Dublin, with the regional traffic unit there would be more people trained to a higher level.

Or they might be trained in other vehicles. A garda could have an advanced motorcycle course done, depending on where they are and what vehicles are available to their particular unit.

It would not be big numbers.

I think there will be a lot of public shock, even at this point and even though it has been highlighted previously, that individual members of the Garda could be held personally accountable for, essentially, following orders and for doing what we would all consider to be their jobs, particularly in relation to pursuits. Do either of the Garda representative bodies here have views in respect of non-pursuit responses if gardaí do not have training? This is particularly pertinent in the instance where one could have high-speed vehicles travelling the wrong way on motorways. Everybody can see scenarios where it just would not be the sensible thing to do for gardaí to pursue them. Do the witnesses have views or proposals, or do they see very clear deficiencies in terms of non-pursuit responses that should be available to their members?

I suppose we are not exactly sure what is available to our members because we have not been informed of what this training is or what training is coming in towards the end of the year or early next year. We have had no consultation on that. We heard about the training I think in late July. We are not exactly sure. We looked at the UK's College of Policing and there is mention of the Devon police force. I have looked at what they provide. Some forces in the UK do not chase on motorways. They will not do it. They will abandon it and they will pull. Those are their policies. They have loads of different constabularies so they will have different policies. I cannot see anything from looking at the UK's College of Policing. It is probably restricted. There may be some non-public facing policy on it but there is nothing about contraflow on motorways or how to deal with that situation.

I keep going back to the objective of the spontaneous pursuit policy. It was to provide direction to Garda personnel. At present we provide no direction as to what to do or what not to do. Nobody knows. It is left to the garda. The garda makes a decision and then somebody assesses that decision later on and the garda ends up in court or not.

I thank Mr. Clogher for that. I want to ask the GRA, very briefly, an associated question in respect of e-scooters and scramblers. We have seen another piece of legislation that we are told is coming and new regulations in respect of e-scooters. Scramblers have been outlawed in public spaces now as a result of Grace's Law but Grace's family have told us that in their community it has made virtually no impact. In terms of gardaí on the ground, what is the experience of the GRA members in respect of e-scooters and scramblers and trying to police their use, particularly for nefarious reasons?

Just as we have no pursuit training we have no vehicles that have off-road capabilities. Very often these forms of transport will move to off-road situations, whereby they are signalled to stop by our members. What we will see with the new legislation in respect of the scooters is actually an enforcement distortion. What do I mean by that and what does it look like? We will see an increase in numbers in a few months' time, which Garda management will provide, but these are the people who are generally compliant. These are the people who will stop on direction by members of the Garda. As I have said, it is a legitimate form of transport for those people who cannot afford the car or cannot afford the diesel or petrol and so on. So, with the new legislation brought in for the e-scooters I personally think there is going to be that distortion in the numbers just to reveal those people who are trying to go about their day's work. They are the easy ones to identify as not wearing a high-vis or who may not be wearing a helmet or who have forgotten their helmets that particular day.

I thank Mr. Hodgins for that. Deputy Murphy is not a member of this committee but is Chairperson of the transport committee so I will give him a three-minute interaction if that is okay.

I really appreciate this opportunity. As the Chair said, I chair the transport committee where we are doing a lot of work on road safety at the moment. We hope to publish a report in the coming weeks after six months of focused hearings. I did not get a chance to bring in the representative bodies here in front of me, so I wanted to come today just get their perspective on two key issues. I really want to focus on driver behaviour. Why does somebody drive the wrong way down a motorway? Why does somebody get behind the wheel of a car and exceed the speed limit? Why does somebody get behind the wheel of a car and take a drink or take a drug?

We have substantial non-compliance on Irish roads. There were 10,000 checkpoints during the Christmas operation. In that month alone, 26,500 fixed penalty notices were issued for speeding. Three thousand cars were seized on the side of the road, 65% of which did not have insurance. There were 765 arrests for either the consumption of alcohol or the taking of drugs. I can go on about seatbelt and mobile phone use.

Does Mr. Slevin agree with me that, among a certain cohort of drivers, there is increased confidence that they simply will not be caught and that the only way that we can really get on top the crisis of fatalities and serious injuries on Irish roads is to strengthen our roads policing unit? The only thing that really shapes driver behaviour is enforcement. The only way we can really tackle that confidence that they will not be caught is by strengthening our roads policing unit. I also ask the witnesses in the context of, hopefully, an effort to strengthen our roads policing unit throughout the next number of years to look at the way we allocate our roads policing unit. It should not be just based on the divisional structure. We should take into account length of road, traffic volumes, and history of fatal and serious collisions.

My second question touches on the e-scooter topic that the Chair spoke about. Does Mr. Slevin agree that we are tying ourselves up in knots with legislation and regulation around e-scooters? Does he support my call as Chair of the transport committee for an outright ban on the use of e-scooters on public roads and in public spaces?

That is a lot to answer in 25 seconds. Mr Slevin, give it a shot.

I completely agree with the Deputy. There is a complete lack of resources for roads policing units. We need to increase the number of members in roads policing units throughout the country. There is, without a doubt, a growing belief among people that they will not be stopped. It is through no fault of our members. We just do not have the resources. As has been said already, we have nearly 50% fewer members in the roads policing units than we had 14, 15 or 16 years ago. That comes on the back of the amount of traffic on the road increasing exponentially. There needs to be an increase in the number of members of the roads policing units. Diversity of enforcement is needed. It is not all lifesaver incidents. There are far more offences and driver behaviour and attitudes to be looked at.

Regarding the e-scooter ban, probably not. Many people, as my colleague has alluded to, utilise e-scooters to get about. You could have the same attitude to e-bikes. Regarding enforcement in relation to e-bikes and e-scooters, we do not have to look very far. Across the water, they had an epidemic in the last number of years with people on e-bikes and e-scooters conducting thefts and robberies. They took an attitude of hard enforcement. They brought out lighter off-road motorcycles, equipped the police officers with the equipment they needed, and they authorised contact to bring these offenders to justice. Something is required to address the basics of enforcement, when we have issues throughout the country with off-road bikes and blatant breaches of the law left, right and centre. Going along O'Connell Street, I see, with disbelief, people on scramblers doing wheelies in the middle of the night. It took my breath away. I was not aware that that was happening so blatantly. We need to address those, we need to resource members, and we have to empower members to do the job that they are there and willing to do, once they get the backing and the support from Garda management and Government providing legislation.

I thank Mr. Slevin. I thank members for more or less keeping within time. It was a complicated subject for which we could have kept our guests for twice as long again.

I propose that we publish the opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the committee, I thank the GRA and the AGSI for taking part in our meeting and ask their representatives to pass on our thanks to their members, who provide a vital service in our communities - often, as we have heard, in very difficult circumstances.

The purpose of this part of the meeting is to continue our engagement on the topic of Garda pursuits, with a particular focus on the additional resources and training that might be required. In this instance, on behalf of the committee, I welcome Assistant Commissioner Denis Ferry and Chief Superintendent Brian Sugrue to the meeting. We will ask a representative from An Garda Síochána to make an opening statement and then members in the order in which they have indicated to me will put their questions. I will be proposing five-minute interactions.

Before I invite the witnesses to make their opening statement, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference that may be made to other persons in any evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative any such direction is complied with.

I am now very pleased to welcome Assistant Commissioner Denis Ferry to deliver an opening statement.

A Chathaoirligh and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to appear before you today to discuss Garda pursuits with specific focus on additional resource requirements and training.

As previously stated, road safety is a key policing and public safety priority for An Garda Síochána. Every fatal or serious injury collision has devastating consequences for the victims, their families and loved ones and their communities. To date, in 2026, there were 122 fatal collisions, resulting in the loss of 133 lives. This is an increase of 13 deaths from the same period in 2025. We know that behind each of these figures is a loved one whose family and friends have been left devastated. We also recognise there are others whose lives have been forever changed as a result of serious collisions.

An Garda Síochána is a key delivery partner under the Government's road safety strategy from 2021 to 2023 and supports Vision Zero. While we have dedicated roads policing units with specialist capabilities, it is important to state that road safety is supported by all Garda members through high-visibility policing, proactive enforcement, checkpoints, public engagement and education. An Garda Síochána is focused on supporting safer behaviours on our roads. In the first eight months of 2026, Garda personnel carried out more than 33,500 mandatory intoxicant testing checkpoints, more than 126,000 breath tests and more than 7,200 oral fluid tests. Driving while intoxicated incidents increased by 11% compared with the same period in 2025. To the end of July, detections for mobile phone use while driving increased by 19%, while non-intercept speed detections also increased significantly year on year.

An Garda Síochána has dedicated roads policing units across the country and roads policing units represent the largest specialist unit in the State, which promotes road safety and enforces road traffic legislation. I emphasise that all front-line uniformed members are engaged in roads policing activities as part of their daily duties. As previously stated by the Commissioner, approximately 75% of roads policing with an arrest is in fact made by our front-line members. This has been the benefit of the 30 minutes of dedicated roads policing initiative introduced in 2024. Enforcement of this area is further supported through the roll-out of increased technical supports to the application of mobile devices, together with the employment of high-performance vehicles unmarked and marked, including lorries and tractor cabs.

The introduction of the average and static safety cameras and increased monitoring hours from mobile safety cameras - GoSafe - continue to play a role in the area of enforcement. Furthermore, An Garda Síochána has also rolled out high-visibility police strategies in Dublin city centre, namely, in north central Store Street and south central Pearse Street Garda community engagement areas. In March 2025 and since then, the initiative has expanded into dealing with more south and east divisions, with 50 gardaí deployed daily across at least four divisions. The high-visibility policing strategy has also been implemented in Cork, Limerick and most recently in Galway. The policing response serves as a deterrent against potential criminal and roads policing offences.

Roads policing is an area of sustained focus for me and for the senior leadership of An Garda Síochána. We have been progressing a programme of work, aimed at strengthening oversight and enhancing resources, as well as training and embedding a culture of accountability and high standards. The Crowe review subsequently highlighted a number of areas for improvement and reinforced the importance of this work. Its recommendations have informed and supported the changes already under way, as well as identifying areas requiring further focus. As part of this work, community engagement superintendents will have road policing assigned as part of their portfolios, and each road policing unit has a dedicated inspector. This structure will support greater consistency, supervision and support to all Garda divisions.

An Garda Síochána remains committed to improving road safety on our roads but we also recognise reducing road fatalities will not be solved through enforcement alone. This is why prevention through education and community engagement remains central to the response of An Garda Síochána. One of the initiatives developed under this is the lifesaver project. This is our road safety education initiative delivered by An Garda Síochána to secondary school students. Since November 2023, more than 51,000 students across 318 schools have received this hard-hitting road safety programme. Additionally, later this month An Garda Síochána will launch the Garda schools programme on scramblers and e-scooters, which aims to increase education and awareness around road safety and recent updates to the legislation.

An Garda Síochána introduced a policy on spontaneous pursuits in December 2024. This policy replaced the old policy of managed containment and stopping of suspect vehicles. The new policy facilitated enhanced collaboration with the regional control room centres and in essence upskilled our people in relation to the management of spontaneous pursuits.

We are continuing to increase training and improvements in this area.

A number of Garda driving instructors attached to our driving school are currently undergoing initial phase pursuit training in the United Kingdom. This training will qualify the selected members from our driving schools as initial phase pursuit instructors. There are three stages to this training and, by way of update, two stages have now been successfully completed. It is envisaged the final stage will be completed in quarter 4 of 2026. The completion and qualification of these members as initial phase pursuit training instructors will enable the introduction of initial phase pursuit training to our operational gardaí. An Garda Síochána is also engaging with a number of driving schools attached to UK police forces, seeking further opportunities to train additional Garda driving instructors as initial phase pursuit instructors so we can roll out this training at scale.

Once the training has been introduced to the Garda organisation, it will then be necessary to train the driving instructors in the second component of pursuit training, which is the tactical pursuit and containment, TPAC. This training will complement the roll-out of pursuit training to members of An Garda Síochána.

An Garda Síochána is acutely aware that there are gardaí currently before the criminal courts in relation to the alleged manner of their driving in the course of their duty. Current legislation provides a number of specific road traffic exemptions for members of An Garda Síochána in the performance of their official duties. However, there is a requirement to examine additional safeguards for our members trained to engage in pursuits. In this regard, a number of considerations are under review with key internal stakeholders. An Garda Síochána is reviewing resources attached to the Garda driving school to ensure the current rate of Garda driver training is maintained in conjunction with the delivery and roll-out of the new pursuit training programmes.

Against the backdrop of recent high-profile collisions involving contra-flow driving on motorways both here and in the UK, An Garda Síochána wishes to acknowledge that these recent developments are deeply concerning. It should also be said that pursuit training is not a solution to this specific dangerous and criminal behaviour. An Garda Síochána is working with all relevant agencies to find workable solutions to deterring, preventing and prosecuting those engaged in such offences. One such example includes engagement with social media platforms to prioritise road safety and to seek the removal of such material from their platforms.

In summary, An Garda Síochána remains committed to road safety and its commitment to Vision Zero to reduce deaths and serious injuries on Irish roads. We will also continue to impress upon all road users the importance of acting responsibly when using our roads: wear a seat belt, put away the mobile phone, maintain a safe speed on a road for the weather conditions and never drive while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Road safety cannot be delivered by policing alone. An Garda Síochána continues to work closely with the Department of Transport, the Road Safety Authority, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, local authorities, the National Transport Authority, the Health Service Executive and other stakeholders to support safety on our roads.

I thank the committee again for the opportunity for being here today and I am happy to address any questions committee members may have.

Thank you for that. I will invite members, in the order in which they indicated, to engage. I will begin with Deputy Kelly, who has five minutes.

We have only a short time and I would appreciate brevity.

With the assistant commissioner, I am not going to get into how we got here because it goes back decades. There is no one person to blame. It is insane that we are at this point. I have stated previously that it needs legislation, it needs training and we need resources - all three of them. I am sure Mr. Ferry agrees.

When the Commissioner was in front of us here before the summer recess, he said that he was drafting legislation to go to the Department of justice. I spoke to the Minister for Transport, because it is ultimately transport legislation that will have to come across from the Department of justice. Has that draft legislation been sent from An Garda Síochána to the Department of justice so that the Minister for Transport can put in what he wants to do in legislation in this quarter?

I thank the Deputy. "Yes" is the answer.

Okay.

The Commissioner committed to doing that and he sent the legislation.

So that has gone to the Department of justice.

That was sent to the Department of justice - I am not exactly sure of the date and I can get that for the committee - a number of weeks ago.

Fine. Does the chief superintendent expect any gardaí to be trained in pursuit driving this year?

Yes, but a very small number by the end of the year. I expect probably a single or maybe two courses before the end of this year with a wider roll-out in 2027.

How many does the chief superintendent expect to be trained this year?

I would expect a single course of six is probably realistic before the end of the year-----

Six?

-----with a broader roll-out then for 2027. At present, I do not have any instructors trained to run that course.

I would not like, as a fellow Tipperary man, to put Mr. Sugrue on the spot. Six is small but it is more than what his colleagues in the AGSI and GRA expect. They do not expect anything. Is Mr. Sugrue pretty positive that it will be-----

I can inform the Deputy that there has been a process under way for an extended period of time, supported by Devon and Cornwall Police, as he is aware-----

I know. It is embarrassing.

-----as subject matter experts, to bring our instructors up to the level of pursuit instructors, which they are not today. By the end of the year, we will have a small cohort of instructors who will be qualified to roll out pursuit training and also to upskill other instructors.

I appreciate that. When I say "embarrassing", we should never have got to the point where we had to go outside the State to do this. I think everybody is of that view. For all of us here, it is absolutely incredible that we are at this point, but that is not the question.

Either of the witnesses can answer this. How many years do they think it will get take to get to the quantum of gardaí with pursuit training they feel will be adequate for our State in 2027 essentially?

The key point, as in the opening statement, is that we are endeavouring to train people now in pursuit training. We also need to acknowledge what the Commissioner said. I think he repeated it today. We have over 200 specialist trained drivers whom we have seen through recent incidents are trained to stop vehicles that have to be stopped and are involved in criminality. There are around 200 specialist members trained.

The other key point is we are also focusing on pursuit training but in pursuit training, the key piece is prevention - to prevent the pursuit happening and, most importantly, to use the devices we know as stingers to stop. Over 2,000 members are trained to use those.

Will Assistant Commissioner Ferry answer the question-----

I think it is inevitable-----

How long will it take to get to the quantum the Garda has calculated it needs?

We hope to have around 40 instructors trained by the end of the year and then commence the first course. The Commissioner is also on record saying we are in the middle of the EU Presidency. That is-----

I understand that. This is the third time I will ask the same question. Is there a timeframe for the quantum of training the Garda feels is necessary to protect people in 2027 and 2028? I do not mind if he is going to say a year, two years or whatever, but just to give the public a flavour of how long this is going to take. In fairness to those in Templemore and those doing the training, I understand they are left in this scenario. How long does the Garda expect it will take?

I do not have a defined timeline for that quantum but we will prioritise the units that need to be trained first, which will have the greatest impact on our roads from a policing perspective. That will probably be the people in the roads policing area and also in certain divisions that will benefit from this training at the earliest point in time.

There was a unit called India Victor, which did great work in relation to robberies across the country. I recall a few years ago I had to bring in legislation and do stuff in relation to CCTV. Why was that unit stopped? It had a fantastic record.

As quickly as you can, please.

Were its members trained in what they did?

This is where I say over 200 members are trained to stop vehicles. There is a difference between the stop-a-vehicle piece and in-pursuit training, which needs to be-----

Were they trained? That is all I want to know.

They would have been trained. I assume they were trained as CBD trainers, but not in pursuit because that is a different concept - to monitor and manage pursuits.

They did a good job.

Thank you, Deputy Kelly. I call Deputy Butterly, followed by Senator Rabbitte.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. The last time the Garda Commissioner was here, I asked him directly how many extra gardaí would be required in order to deal effectively with roads policing and Garda visibility. He said he did not believe he needed any extra staff and, if needed, it would be to bolster Garda management rather than front-line gardaí.

In light of what has gone on since the Commissioner was here I would like to ask if that is still the case? Do we need more boots on the ground? When we were here last, we highlighted how communities in Louth, Meath, Monaghan and Cavan have consistently called for greater Garda visibility. Gardaí are being asked to deal with increasingly dangerous road policing incidents. It would follow that we absolutely do need extra boots on the ground. That is my first question.

Second, we heard from the GRA in particular about the actual training and how, particularly since the last crash, in-person training has more or less disappeared. Can the witnesses confirm that? In any profession, whether one is a doctor, barrister or whatever, one is required to do CPD every year. You are required to upskill and make sure that you at least know about all the latest technologies, skill sets, etc. Why is that not the case in An Garda Síochána?

It is very clear there is frustration. The Commissioner has consistently told members here that resources are not the issue: if he asks, he gets. However, the GRA has also stated that when it looks for additional resources and a change in policies, it consistently gets the answer that it is actually an issue. How are we to square that circle?

I will take the second part of the question, about training. One can clearly see that continuing professional development training happens on a regular basis and is conducted through the college. It is predominantly in-person and in most cases is a minimum of two days per member per year. It addresses a lot of the changes in legislation and procedures that have been introduced. That would be complemented by specific training for new projects which have come in where people get specialist training for, say, the investigation management system or body-worn cameras. That happens on top of the continuous professional development which would be additional days. We have also made greater use of the online tools available to do online training so members can do refresher training on a regular basis. There is a significant amount of training arranged, including CPD, which was the Deputy’s main question.

On resources, the Commissioner has said, and as the opening statement reflected, roads policing is the largest specialist unit in the organisation. There are currently 660 members attached to roads policing. The Commissioner has also said that as numbers increase we will continue to look at the numbers in the roads policing function. As assistant commissioner for that area, that is something I am keeping a very close eye on.

Is it enough?

We think it is enough. What the Commissioner touched on, which the Deputy mentioned, was maximising the capacity of that unit and what it can do and to ensure it has the equipment, including the cars, and the training to do their job. As well as that, as I mentioned in the opening statement, we also have dedicated inspectors to support each unit. We meet them every two weeks so we co-ordinate and task exactly what is going on. We look at trends and changes and make sure those things are at least advised across the board. As I said, there are dedicated superintendents at community engagement level who have responsibility for roads policing. They were introduced as part of the recommendations from the Crowe report.

We heard there are no off-road vehicles available. Will the Garda be purchasing off-road vehicles? Will it be increasing the fleet to deal with the increasing demand of having to police our roads safely?

The fleet is probably at its highest number of vehicles in the organisation. We will continue to look at different types of fleet to perform that duty. There will be a very limited number for off-road. We are looking at what other forces are doing, particularly in the UK, to see how that might be considered for An Garda Síochána.

However, there is no request in to the Minister for justice at the moment for an increased budget in order to increase the fleet.

No. We have said on record that we are happy with the budget at the moment.

In fairness, if we do need to apply it to a different area they will do that. We have bought a number of high powered vehicles that are unmarked for roads policing units and I think we have more of them coming in the next couple of months to be allocated.

Are those drivers actually licensed for pursuit training?

No.

They are not.

All of the road policing units have to do the CBD 2, which is the standard. It is a very significant course and not every member will succeed in passing that. In-pursuit training is another type of course to help manage and to make decisions around pursuit, and that is what we will be introducing.

Thank you.

I thank the assistant commissioner. Senator Rabbitte is next, followed by Deputy Ward.

I thank the assistant commissioner for his opening remarks. I speak as somebody who does not have a legal background but a great interest in fairness and justice. I am thinking of the incidents that brought us here today. As I said to the GRA and AGSI, people looking at this committee today want to know they feel protected when they go out on the road and if they are going on a journey at night they hope not to encounter what happened the last time. We need to peel it all back. I said to my colleague sitting beside me that I would have liked to have had the GRA, AGSI and our current witnesses here together. Deputy Brabazon, who is very diplomatic would say it is normal industrial relations, but there is no doubt from the three different opening statements that not everybody is on the same page. It is disappointing because we need reassurance, as does the general public, that everyone is on the one page and I did not get that today. It is all good people – absolutely – but what I picked up on was that at the end of the day there is a serious lack of communication. The gentlemen who were before us earlier said they hear stuff through the media about what is happening about training and in-pursuit training. That is unfortunate for the general public to hear. It is not reassuring.

The second thing they spoke of was indemnity. They felt management has pushed the risk back onto the ordinary garda to carry and they are not comfortable with that. That risk is also on the control centres as well. If something goes wrong and a decision is made there is a risk attached to it; if a decision is not made there is a risk attached to it but it is the garda or the controller in the centre who is carrying it. Those are my observations. I do not think it is healthy for the general public to hear we are not on the one page on the back of such tragedy. We know there is no quick-fix solution to this because, ultimately, criminal activity is taking place on our roads. That is what it is. We all want to feel protected. We want to know the witnesses and the different groups are on the one page. That is not a criticism, it is an observation, and I would not like to see it again.

A question that kept coming up earlier was about resourcing. As a female, I would love to know what the policy is about women in the force going on maternity leave. How do we backfill them? Is there backfilling in An Garda Síochána? If we are down on gardaí – it could be in roads policing on in local stations but I will focus on roads policing because that is what this is all about – do we backfill leave or how do we cover the deficit? If our numbers are so slight and every number counts, what happens when people go out on maternity leave? I would think that is a frustration on the part of the members who feel they do not have protection of their units. Not being a garda, I assume it all works on unit, numbers and stacking and stuff like that – I am just trying to work it out.

There is a minute left for the witnesses to answer those questions.

Okay. I brought in indemnity and risk. Sorry.

I thank the Senator. First, I reassure the committee, but also reassure the public, that safety is at the heart of everything we are doing.

There are a significant number of members out there. It is the highest number we have ever had within the organisation and there is a clear focus on reducing collisions on roads and on reducing our roads being used for criminality. As I said, 75% of arrests are made by front-line members. That is what the Commissioner is saying. All of our members are very focused.

I think we are on the one page. I recognise the challenges the associations have, and they rightly represent their members in saying they want more of what they can do. I met them a number of weeks ago with regard to the protections and indemnity the Senator talked about. The Commissioner asked me to meet them ahead of that submission Deputy Kelly asked about. We were pretty much aligned with what they were saying about what the protections were and what they needed. The Commissioner has made that submission to the Department of justice. Hopefully, it will be fully incorporated.

From a welfare perspective, when there is any incident, we try to make sure the supports are there at local level as peer support. From a welfare perspective, we have dedicated officers, and they put in a lot of effort. I am familiar with the effort they put in when these incidents happen to support the members who have to attend these difficult situations and, unfortunately, when members are referred to Fiosrú, which we are obliged to do if somebody is injured, etc.

It is important to assure everybody that alignment is there, and we need to continue. There is a regular consultation with the associations and there are a significant number of meetings. That is something that will continue. As assistant commissioner in this area, I would be positive about that engagement.

Did the assistant commissioner watch the previous engagement between this committee and the AGSI and the GRA?

I saw some of it.

All I have is five minutes. I would not be able to go through all the contradictions between what they said and what the current witnesses are saying. There seems to be a systemic disconnection between the front-line gardaí and management. What that issue is, and whatever caused it, I do not know, but it is clear to me. We heard from the Garda representative bodies that they believe management is failing in its duty to gardaí. We also heard that, when it comes to pursuits and something goes wrong, as it can, they feel abandoned. They feel they are on their own and all the risk is on the individual and not the organisation itself. Does the assistant commissioner accept that?

I would point to the new policy that deals with pursuits. It gives a lot of good governance and accountability to our pursuits. Most times, pursuits are spontaneous. The member may not be aware of what happened. The new policy gives clear guidance to the control rooms that members make contact to say there is an incident that may lead to a pursuit. Along with the members, the control centres are managing those pursuits using the information available to them with the clear aim of trying to end them as quickly as possible. As to control room authorisations, 80% of incidents have pursuit authorisation approved and 20% do not. The important piece is that it is clear that there be good governance and accountability so that, in the event that somebody stands down a pursuit and something happens, it is recorded. If someone does not and something happens, that is recorded. That is also a protection to the control room members, approximately 94% or 97% of whom are trained. I may be wrong on that percentage, but almost all of them are trained in pursuit management. Those supervisors, who are at sergeant and inspector levels, are then responsible for deciding.

I reinforce the point I made earlier. Pursuit driving is high risk. It is a significant risk. In the policy and procedure, the two pieces that need to be considered immediately are the use of the stopping devices known as stingers, which are the quickest way to bring a pursuit to an end as opposed to a chase, and the air support unit. I am sorry to go on. There is a significant-----

We will go back to air support in a moment. The consultation process on the pursuit policy was done in 2025. We just heard from the AGSI and the GRA that they felt their input was disregarded and omitted from the current policy.

These are the guys who are front line and have to deal with this daily, and they feel their input was omitted and disregarded. Does Mr. Ferry accept that?

I do not have the specifics of their submission, and I will certainly look at that.

It is in their opening statement, so he can have a look.

With any consultation you take on board what is being-----

If the input of front-line gardaí was disregarded and omitted, then whose input was put into this policy? They said the first line of the pursuit policy is to give direction to gardaí, but they say they are getting no direction.

I do not agree with that. As I have said, the policy sets out the way to manage and conduct pursuits. That is clear within the policy. The only element of that policy we are talking about is further training of our members in pursuit. We want to reinforce the point made earlier. The most important thing, and it is in the policy, is to try to prevent and stop any element of a pursuit as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, we have seen in some of those most recent incidents that these things can go wrong very quickly.

One thing the associations have highlighted, which the Commissioner is on record about and has put into the submission, is that they are looking for protections and supports in terms of that higher standard. That has been submitted to the Department and will hopefully be considered as soon as possible.

I agree that prevention is better than cure, but the way things are you do not know. As Mr. Ferry said, if somebody goes off in a car they do not know if that is a really serious crime or just somebody who has not got tax and insurance or stuff like that. At that stage, they feel they are abandoned when they phone in to the headquarters and either get a yes or no. They also feel the controllers who make that decision on the radio when they call in are also open to feeling abandoned.

I think it gives them a level of protection because a level of assessment is being done by the supervisor based on the information, the conditions, the number of people on the road, the time, the weather and all of those factors. You have to recognise that, for the member, when those things happen it is spontaneous and instant. Sometimes it is that clarity the control room can bring to tell them to stand down. I go back and say that 80% of pursuits are authorised by the control room and the member is told it is okay to pursue, but that is under constant review based on the risk, and that is really important. I think that is a protection for the member as well.

The assistant commissioner mentioned at the start that the legislation has been sent by the Commissioner to the Department of justice. Will he tell us what is in that legislation?

The key element in that submission is highlighting the relevant section 87 of the Road Traffic Act 2010. That talks about the exemptions given to drivers of emergency services. That is not just the Garda. That is the fire service and the ambulance service, etc. It highlights how that is where there are issues and challenges. It is also making recommendations based on the UK and how they do it. As part of this we are hoping to further engage with the Department to give clarity about what the key requirements are. We have looked internationally at other police forces and what they do. In simple terms it is about acknowledging that if people are trained to a higher standard and follow procedure, control room instructions, guidance and so on, and they drive at the level of training expected of them, then there will be a higher threshold to be considered. At the moment, it unfortunately might be felt that is not the case. They are being considered as ordinary road users as opposed to people who are in this case highly trained. I know the figures may change, but there are between approximately 4,000 and 4,500 members trained on what we call the standard driving course. That is a significant number of members when you take the front line of a force that is just under 15,000 at the moment.

I am not sure if it was the AGSI or the GRA, but we heard about individual gardaí being prosecuted. Does Mr. Ferry think it is reasonable for a member of An Garda Síochána to be prosecuted when they are going about their lawful duty in a reasonable manner?

No Deputy, of course not. I am a police officer, the exact same as them. I was there. I was in the same position as a lot of them. What is important is that, at the moment, there are nine members. That is nine too many. Of all of the pursuits and incidents that have happened, unfortunately or regrettably, there are nine members. That is not something we have control over. If there is an incident where someone is injured, we have to report that to Fiosrú. It is then for Fiosrú to carry out its assessment and investigation. Obviously, the decision to prosecute is with the DPP.

We were told earlier that gardaí were being discriminated against by the employment by the DPP's office of junior counsel to prosecute them in prosecutions. It would be entirely different if any of my colleagues here on the committee or I were prosecuted, in that it would be done by a garda or sergeant. To have a qualified and experienced lawyer prosecuting a garda-----

Just be cautious of the separation of powers there in terms of legal processes.

There is no transgression on that, Chair. There seems to be a discrimination between what a member of the public would face in terms of being prosecuted by a member of An Garda Síochána and what a garda with a similar charge would face, namely, prosecution by junior counsel. It seems to be disproportionate and unfair. What is the assistant commissioner's view on that?

I do not have on because I am not familiar with that. I may have missed that comment. I did not see all of what the associations meant. That matter is for the courts to decide. I hope everyone is treated-----

The courts do not decide to appoint junior counsel. That is a decision made somewhere else. The court will only deal with whatever case is before it.

A number of years ago, we in my constituency were promised that we would have gardaí on mountain bikes patrolling the area. There was an issue about gardaí being trained to cycle bikes. At the time, I thought it was utterly ridiculous and that most gardaí would be able to throw their leg over a bike and pedal them away without training. When one drilled down into it, though, it was more about health and safety and stuff like that. There is a pursuit policy but there are no pursuits taking place, according to what we have heard today. I know anecdotally from my own constituency and talking to gardaí on the front line that there is huge frustration that no pursuits are taking place. It is affecting morale. Does Mr. Ferry think that it comes from a health and safety point of view or from an employer-employee liability point of view, or is it something else?

It is very important that members be trained to the highest standard. We always have to assess a member's capability, even from a driving perspective. We all know people who have passed the test and can drive a car but from a policing perspective, that is why the CBD 1 assessment is in place. It is to assess people's capability of driving because they are now going to be driving a police car as part of their job. Whatever requirement we have, there is a responsibility on the organisation to make sure that people are trained to a certain level. What you then try to do is build on that training and build their capability to drive or perform other skills, and that only comes from training. That is something the organisation has been committed to in most cases.

I thank Mr. Ferry.

I thank Assistant Commissioner Ferry and Chief Superintendent Sugrue for attending. One of the biggest challenges at a macro level for An Garda Síochána at the moment, as would be widely acknowledged, is in trying to get numbers into the force to an excess of 15,000 and, hopefully in the not-too-distant future, approaching 20,000. Obviously, there are pay and conditions elements of that. As alluded to by the GRA and the AGSI, there is a moral sense of responsibility in service of the community before somebody decides to become a member of An Garda Síochána.

I feel that this is being eroded by poor communication internally and particularly in the area we are discussing at the moment. Ultimately, it is our job as legislators and the job of An Garda Síochána management to protect those who are entrusted to go out and protect our communities. If they feel that they are being adequately supported and empowered to do their job then they will do that job an awful lot better. Mention was made about the statistics around pursuits and that 80% of pursuits are sanctioned and authorised, and therefore that 20% are not. The lack of certainty when it comes to decision-making on the part of members of An Garda Síochána is something that has to be addressed. We heard earlier from the GRA that this issue was highlighted as far back as July and August of 2008. In the 18 years plus that have passed since then, it is still an issue whereby members of An Garda Síochána are fearful that if they commence a pursuit they will be subject to the courts in the event of that going wrong. Equally, members would be fearful of not commencing a pursuit because of the possible consequences of that. Clarity is absolutely needed there. Will the assistant commissioner give us a little bit of background on progress being made towards this anomaly being overcome?

The revised policy came in from December of 2024 on pursuits. The four control rooms that exist across the country are fully staffed 24-7, and the procedure is there, which I think gives a lot of clarity. First, the control room members are trained. As I said earlier, almost 94% are trained and that is a continued piece around making sure that they are there to give that consistency of application for decisions around authorisations of pursuits. The members obviously have that level of governance but also that level of support around the decision to authorise a pursuit. In this case we are saying about 80% are authorised. It is unusual for them not to be authorised. What then happens, as the pursuit continues, is that the priority has to be to prevent-----

Would Mr. Ferry accept that there is a big flaw there at the moment because of that contradiction continuing to exist?

Maybe I misunderstood the Deputy. The key piece here is that before we had a policy of this nature, and before we had the dedicated control rooms, a member could be making that decision in isolation, whereas now there are control rooms that are getting the information, assisting with that decision-making, seeing what the conditions are, seeing what the volume of traffic is and seeing the number of people around in the area. We must keep remembering, however, the risk if a pursuit takes up. For the members, the protection the member has is that all of this is recorded and all of that is there for their benefit-----

I am going to have to cut across Mr. Ferry very briefly because I am just trying to get one other question in. In his opening statement, the assistant commissioner made reference to the engagement with social media platforms. I think this is vital given that social media platforms are being used to glorify reckless driving and to glorify contraflow driving on our public roads. What progress is being made in that engagement with the social media companies?

We have had very positive engagement and we have met with one of the companies so far. We have engaged with the other companies as well to meet them. Again, it was very beneficial for us to understand the level of work they do around looking at content and moderating content. What we are trying to do is make sure that if there are any improvements then we can make contact with them to make them aware, and likewise where they can assist-----

Are we getting any closer, with the indulgence of the Cathaoirleach, towards a stage where the uploading of such videos will be prohibited? Are we close to progress in that regard?

From the engagement I had with most recent meeting, they are very positive about being proactive in trying to remove content.

The challenge is obviously the assessment of what is content, because lots of people take pictures and videos of their cars. If there is a criminal element to it, I suppose that is the piece. What I certainly felt from the meeting, and we are to follow up again later this month with them, had to do with making sure that we had those processes.

What about the point specifically on the glorification of reckless driving?

I thank Senator Kelleher. I am sorry.

Is there any timeline on when that element is likely to be achieved?

What I would say is that content was removed by the companies and it continues to be removed. That is one of the things on which we will be engaging with them and making sure there is a process for how that content is flagged. If they do not catch it from their side and we become aware of where there is an incident or criminal activity, we can then make contact and they can be proactive and remove it.

I thank Mr. Ferry. I call Deputy Gannon, followed by Deputy Callaghan.

I thank the assistant commissioner for coming in to us. I want to very briefly follow on from the last contributor. Are the social media companies breaking the law in enabling the content to be platformed on their platforms?

That is not something I could make a comment on.

Senior gardaí-----

What I said a few minutes ago was that we had had very positive engagement with them.

I am wondering why the Garda is having engagement with them. Is the Garda doing the Government's job in the absence of it doing it? My expectation of senior gardaí is that they would just go in and enforce the law. If somebody is breaking it, they arrest them and they will be held accountable before the courts. Otherwise, there is just a lobbying activity going on that I would not expect to be under the Garda's remit. Are they breaking the law or otherwise? We can come back to that question because I have other ones.

Mr. Ferry mentioned that 4,000 members were trained in the standard driving course. Is that the CBD 1 basic driving?

No, that is CBD 2. CBD 1 is an assessment of general driving.

Does that allow appropriately qualified gardaí to respond under emergency conditions but does not allow pursuits?

It does. Mr. Sugrue might respond to that point.

They are not trained to undergo pursuits, but they can be authorised by a regional controller.

To what standard is the divisional controller trained?

The regional controllers are trained as serious incident dispatchers and supervisors. Both have training-----

Do they have pursuit training?

Yes, pursuit training.

Who provides that training?

It is in conjunction with the Garda College and the policy owner. They work closely with the college to develop the training.

This is where I find the difference. I agree that there is very little difference between the GRA, the AGSI and Garda management and they all have the best intentions in mind. The two representative bodies say that not a single garda in this country is trained in pursuits, but when I stand in front of senior management and the Minister, I will be told that that is not the case. It is very difficult to fill that gap. Either we have 4,000 gardaí trained to pursue-----

If I could clarify, approximately 4,500 members have been trained in CBD 2. That is response driving. It is roadcraft and response - blue lights and sirens - to make progress quickly to calls.

That is response driving.

It is not pursuit driving. Those members can be authorised to engage in pursuit by the control room staff. It is pursuit management but not driving.

That is really helpful and it does give great clarity. Effectively, we do have a pursuits policy, but we do not have gardaí training in pursuit.

Right at this moment, we do not.

Is there any other orifice of the State, organisation or private company where we have an expectation of a worker doing a job for which they were not trained, especially in such serious conditions? I do not blame the witnesses for this. I am just wondering how we got to this point and how we get out of it.

What we have done here is we have updated the policy to reflect the challenges that are involved in terms of responding to incidents when a response to an incident turns into a pursuit. It is important that we have additional training, so the people who have done their CBD 2 will now be trained on in-pursuit driving, which I understand is a five-day training course. That will be delivered. That will give them a better understanding of how to manage.

Is that the new pursuit training?

It is the new pursuit training.

I would love to get there.

That is a five-day training course. I keep coming back to what is the most important point for us, which is the control around this and trying to prevent the pursuit. The aim is to try as early as possible to terminate that. The safest way to do that is through the use of the stopping devices known as stingers.

That is fantastic. Where possible, they should be used but we know that is not always going to be the case, which is where the frustration lies for members across the board, including the witnesses.

In July, the Commissioner came before the committee and told me that there would not be pursuit training before the end of the year. He referred to the fact that we would have the EU Presidency. That is fine. We disagree about that, but he was very clear in that message. Some 33 days later, that seems to have changed.

There was an announcement by the Minister for justice the day after the M9 crash, where he said that pursuit training would begin before the end of the year. Could Mr. Ferry tell me how many gardaí he believes will start their training on the five-day pursuit course before the end of this year?

Realistically, it is likely that we will only have time to run a single or maybe two courses by the end of the year. We will not have our instructors trained up as mission phase pursuit instructors until the middle or end of November and then we will have to schedule a course after that, so realistically the capacity for 2026 is negligible. It is almost a pilot.